GoldenEagle Posted July 3, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2014 Wow this discussion is still going on... Seems to me if it's a stumbling block to those weak in the faith it should be avoided. Is it sin? For those who view it as sin it is as such. Do we have a right to smoke? Sure, but it is not beneficial or edifying. Our right shouldn't be a stumbling block to those who are weak. 1 Cor. 8 (ESV) Food Offered to Idols 8 Now concerningfood offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. 4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, smoke tobacco as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. God bless, GE yes, because some do not yet see that the discussion isn't about what actions are sin, but about who has the ability to judge sin. you bring up a great scripture that hasn't surfaced here yet; but Paul isn't telling us to never eat meat, nor is he saying that eating meat doesn't lead to health issues in some cases; if you eat too much fatty pork, it can lead to serious health issues - that doesn't mean that eating pork is always wrong. let's apply this specific scripture to smoking: 7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, smoke tobacco as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Smoking will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not smoke tobacco, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge smoking tobacco in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to smoke tobacco offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if smoking tobacco makes my brother stumble, I will never smoke tobacco, lest I make my brother stumble. Paul is dealing with idol worship (spiritual defilement), not eating habits (physical defilement); he is saying that if eating meat offered to idols causes a weaker brother to worship idols, then we shouldn't eat meat offered to idols. he is not saying that if we eat meat, and eating meat causes our weaker brother to have health problems, then we should not eat meat. the core issue here is what you are focused on - your performance or God's leading; your ability to judge sin and righteousness versus His. if you make your own decisions about what is sin, then you are focused on your performance and led by your own reasoning and have rejected God's leading - even if your judgement happens to be correct; you are fallen from grace and fully accountable under the law for any and every sin. if you are led by God, you are free from the law in that it is no longer your responsibility to interpret and apply the law, as you have yielded this right back to God - and He will never lead you to sin. in the latter case, your sins that occur due to missing His leading are covered by mercy through Jesus' sacrifice for your sins; in the former case they are not. I've been thinking and praying about this for the last few days. Perhaps this passage doesn't apply after all as I can't agree with this part: We are no worse off if we do not smoke tobacco, But you are right the passage does talk about idol worship and not necessarily eating habits. I do agree it's not about our performance but about His grace/love/peace/joy. If I steal someone's joy by smoking cigarettes in front of them then perhaps I shouldn't smoke. Perhaps I should also encourage others not to smoke as well. In any case a very interesting discussion. Lot's to think about. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Winnfield Posted July 3, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 12 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/03/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 3, 2014 I would say it is wrong, since you have questions about smoking. I wouldn't say sin, but obviously your occasional smoking seems to cause your conscience a bit of trouble, so I believe you and/or the Lord are telling yourself it's not the thing to do. We all know chronic smoking is terribly unhealthy, and since there are no benefits (health or otherwise) why even bother with the occasional smoke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry1023 Posted July 4, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 427 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 156 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/29/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/20/1980 Share Posted July 4, 2014 Can smoking be considered beneificial?(1 corinthians 6:12) Can it be said that,smoking is truely honoring God with our body?(1 corinthians 6:20) Can a person honestly smoke for the glory of God? (1 corinthians 10:31 I strongly believe that,the answer to this three questions is a resounding no" As a result,I strongly believe that smoking is a dangerous tools,devil uses to destroy the life of any christian that smoke, And therefore should not be pratice by follower of Jesus Christ, I pray that the good God that we serve,will grant any of us that smoke,the grace and the ability to quit. the bible said surely there is an end, therefore any thing that does not glorify God, that has a begining,will surely have an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 5, 2014 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Wow, this thread is still going on! Who could have known that there was so much to say about one simple question? What is next, a 23 volume commentary on John 1:1? It appears as though smoking must be very important to someone to justify this much work to cling to a habit and feel right before man and God. It is also interesting to note, that people are concerned with how much joy this can bring certain unbeleivers and skeptics to see beleivers cannot solve problems of understanding between themselves. It is also interesting to observe that some people will choose to make it easier for others to maintain a lifestyle that they already feel guilty about, potentially stumbling them. Paul, after making the point that there is nothing wrong in eating meat, in and of itself, would abstain from it for the sake of others who did not have a clear conscious.. Wouldn't arguing the point that as a beleiver, one has a right to smoke and can do so without sinning, be unloving in this context? Someone may be tempted to respond to me, and find a way to point out my own hipocrisy. If that is what this thread is about, then of course, by all means do that. If, however, this thread is about whether smoking is a sin or not, I suggest considering the question: "Is there a point I can add, that has not already been said?" What is our motivation here really? A. Are we actually concerned with helpfully answering the question? or . . . B. Are we concerned with winning an argument and proving ourselves to be right, or morally superior, or the better exegete? What do we honestly think this thread looks like to those who read it. Speaking for myself only, I think 80% of it appears to fit category B. better than category A. OK, my self righteous rant is concluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 5, 2014 Who is Sin? Answer that and the rest will become clearer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted July 5, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 5, 2014 Who is Sin? Answer that and the rest will become clearer. This I find to be a strange question gdemoss. Who do you personally think Sin is? Sin is "things" we do that are wrong and that list is "endless" in terms of wrong-doing. Because the imagination of man's heart is on evil continually and mankind will continue to invent evil things to do and engage in that are sinful. If you have an answer to make things clearer or that would make or shed light on the topic of the thread. Then why hide it as if it is some mystery. Mysteries are made to be revealed or made known espeicially truth. I just don't understand your comments that you've made here is all. Sin is not a person. But if you have scripture hey I'm open and curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 6, 2014 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I do have something to say about your comment, but not to call you a hypocrite. You can make this same point about any doctrinal position we disagree over. . . Don't get me wrong, I think debate can be very good, and disagreement is necessary sometimes. My point was more to the fact, that everything that was said, could have been said in a few posts, and that to generate over 100 in this case, seemed to me about argueing over debatable things, and getting heard by just repeating ourselves. I am not sure though, that smoking even rises to the level of a 'doctrinal issue'. Those, sometimes, do need to be hashed out a bit. This is just my subjective opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 6, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Who is Sin? Answer that and the rest will become clearer. This I find to be a strange question gdemoss. Who do you personally think Sin is? Sin is "things" we do that are wrong and that list is "endless" in terms of wrong-doing. Because the imagination of man's heart is on evil continually and mankind will continue to invent evil things to do and engage in that are sinful. If you have an answer to make things clearer or that would make or shed light on the topic of the thread. Then why hide it as if it is some mystery. Mysteries are made to be revealed or made known espeicially truth. I just don't understand your comments that you've made here is all. Sin is not a person. But if you have scripture hey I'm open and curious. Some of the greatest discoveries I have been led to see have come from people who have given me reason to dig by asking simple questions as I have here. It is not meant to offend. Sin is personified in scripture. Genesis chapter 4. People usually dismiss the various personifications in scripture through some methodology or another which is their perrogative. I do not. I stand behind what I have said. Once the question of who is sin is answered then the rest comes together quickly. And if all mysteries are made to be revealed then why is it that there are still mysteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 6, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 6, 2014 I will attempt to do my best to explain my position in a way that is not confusing though the topic itself is very confusing. The word 'person' is not exclusive to 'humans' as Satan is a person or personality. When a person is given credit for something their name is placed upon the something they are credited for. God gave Israel his name as a surname. Christs followers are called Christians. Trump has Trump Towers. The things named after are the works of the one they are named for. The one named Sin preforms sins in those in whom he can. I was taught and came to believe as truth that our thoughts come from one of two places and that we can tell where they come from by where they lead us. Where they lead us is not always apparent until we are standing in the final destination of the leading. There are Two distinct sides: God AND Satan. God places his name on all of his works. Satan places his name on all of his works. Satan has many names which is testified of throughout scripture just as God does. When something is called a devil it is named after The Devil and is his. A father is a father is a father. It is after this manner that I understand who Sin is. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. It is all about persons or personalities who are seeking dominion over one another so that the one who is dominated must do the works of the one dominating. We are the body of Christ. We are the temple that God Himself has chosen to dwell in. We are his works. We have His name placed upon us and are instructed not to take His name in vain but rather to honor His name. His name is Holy. His name is Hallowed. His name is Comforter. His name is Friend. His name is Counselor. His name is THE I AM THAT I AM. His name is Israel. His name is Emmanuel. His name is Savior. Whenever the 'spirit' of something rules over a body, the body is doing the works of the 'spirit' moving it. God is Spirit. I am not here to contend with anyone over these matters but only to share with those who will receive the things that I have been taught. Those who believe me to be in error that leads to furthering the work of Sin rather than God are welcome to rebuke me for what I say but I caution you brethren to have an open mind to that which I say and not to reject it out of hand. As well as to be careful what you say regarding what I have shared here. We are all judged for every idle word. I am held responsible for that which I say here. I receive the wages for my works daily. God gave Lucifer that name. Later The Devil was given the name The Devil. Things are named for what they are. Sin was given the name Sin and preforms sin through the vessels that it can. I have a dual nature. I have the old man who is the man of Sin. I have the new man which is created after the image of Christ. I work to put on the new man and crucify the old daily. Everyone who contends that sin is something they do are right. Those who say that Sin is a person are equally as right. Just as God is sovereign AND man has free will to choose so is Sin both a person as well as the works that he preforms through the vessels he uses. If any man seem contentious, I apologize. My hope is to share a point of view from my frame of reference. Peace unto all that are in Christ Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 6, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 6, 2014 Now for the answer to the topic as I have laid a foundation for my position previously: Everything in Gods world has an intended use. To abuse something is to miss the mark or to sin if you will. If a man use tobacco in a way that God intended it to be used then that man has not sinned but if a man use tobacco in a way that God did not intend then the man has missed the mark and preformed the works of sin instead. The question then becomes, what is God's intended use of tobacco? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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