Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[PeteWaldo]

Shalom, PeteWaldo.

 

 

My only answer to all this is, with no discussion nor debate ... the body of Christ will be right where He wants them to be.

There is no debate if you are talking about a tiny remnant.

But do you really think the body of Christ is right where Jesus wants it, when nearly half of the church must believe the other nearly half of the church - to necessarily be nearly 100% in error regarding their understanding of the book of Revelation (after chapter 3) - since a 1900 year gulf separates the two popular views?

What might be revealed when we take the traditional historicist approach to Bible prophecy, of all Christians and Jews to Old Testament prophecy, and the first 1800 years of the church and those great men of God of the Reformation, to New Testament prophecy?

Someone might get the wrong impression that you can square your claim with 2 Thessalonians 2:3, in spite of what has been going on in the institutional "church" and its apostasy and interfaith pluralism.

 

 

Just a quick thought: What if BOTH popular views are both correct and incorrect? The amillennial preterist view is correct about the tribulation starting in the first century, but it is wrong about it ending in the first century. The premillennial futurist view is correct about the tribulation ending in the future at the return of the Messiah, but it is wrong about it beginning 3.5 or 7 years before that point. And, the only way that could be true is if the tribulation is NOT restricted to a single Seven (“Week”) of years.

 

 

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints

 

It isn't unusual for Christians to completely ignore the church tradition of historicism as your post does, even though all Jews and Christians take the historicist approach to Old Testament Bible prophecy. So too are the terms "preterism" and "amillennialism" often married as they were codependent, but a historicist can be amillennial too. Available evidence suggests that for the first 1800 years of church history, the body of Christ approached New Testament prophecy through historicism as well. After all, wouldn't there would need to be a very compelling reason to take other than a uniform approach to all Bible prophecy?

 

Do you think it is a mere coincidence that the two pop-eschatologies that you cite, that basically rule a near unanimity of the "church", BOTH necessarily preclude even considering, that Muhammad could be THE false prophet of the book of Revelation? This even as our brothers and sisters are being beheaded and martyred for the witness of Jesus by the false prophet Muhammad's kingdom "beast", around so much of the world (and particularly throughout John's "whole world"), by people who must deny the Son of God and DISbelieve His crucifixion and thus reject His shed blood, as artlcles of their faith in the false prophet Muhammad alone. This even as there is yet another production, in the tens of millions of dollars of profiteering, "Left Behind" series industry.

It isn't like we weren't warned:

 

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4  And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

 

The 19th century alone brought us:

 

Mary Baker Eddy - Christian Science

Joseph Smith - LDS Mormon

Charles Taze Russell - Jehovah's Witness

William Miller - Millerites associated into SDA

Ellen White - SDA Seventh Day Adventists

Edward Irving - Irvingites

John Nelson Darby - dispensationalism futurism - Darby from Irving, to church via C.I. Scofield

Dr. John Thomas - Christadelphians

Hegel - Fichte - Maurice - Idealism school of eschatology

Madame Blavatsky - Theosophical Society - satanist acquaintence of Westcott and Hort

Westcott and Hort - These two men penned a minority Greek text that is the basis of the majority of modern bible versions.

Pope Pius IX - 1854 dogma of the "immaculate conception"

 

Though certainly not limited to the 19th century with Jesuit Luis Alcazar's 17th and Jesuit Francisco Ribera's 16th century counter-reformation eschatologies, that the reformers didn't buy, that were popularized in a little different form in the 20th century.

Edited November 3, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

Well said, Sister.

 

One thing that I think a lot of people miss is:

 

And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.  Revelation 15:6-7

 

There are seven angels that bring seven plagues of God's wrath.  The trumpet announces the start of a plague and the pouring out of a vial or bowl brings it to its fullness.  Even the symbolism suggests such.  I've expounded on the idea here:

 

The seventh trumpet and the seventh vial / bowl happen in the same day.  Look at them and compare:

 

When does Jesus return as a thief? 

 

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Rev 16:13-16

 

This is after the sixth vial / bowl has been poured out.  The two witnesses have just been killed and conditions around the world revert back to normal.  If that weren't true, people wouldn't be rejoicing and giving each other gifts.  They see the two witnesses as evil and as causing all the pain and misery that they've just suffered.  The false prophet is seen as victorious...until the two witnesses come back to life.  Then there's cause for concern and thus the rallying cry to gather at Armageddon.  It seems the false prophet has everything under control...but its the 45 day calm before the storm.   All that's left is the seventh trumpet and vial.  "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!" Daniel 12:12  The "shattering of the power of the holy people" in Daniel 12:7 is the death of the two witnesses.

 

 

 

=============================================================================================

 

 

Well said, Sister.

 

 

Can you be a bit more Specific?

 

 

The trumpet announces the start of a plague and the pouring out of a vial or bowl brings it to its fullness.  

 

 

The 7th Trumpet events mark the Conclusion of the Seven Trumpets.

 

 

The seventh trumpet and the seventh vial / bowl happen in the same day.  Look at them and compare: %C2'>

 

 

They do not.  Scripture Support for the same day.....?  I reviewed your link also.

 

The Seven Trumpets are often referred to as "The Judgments of the Thirds"...

1st Angel:  the third part of Trees were burnt up.

2nd Angel: the third part of the sea became as blood and the third part of sea creatures died and the third part of ships were destroyed.

3rd Angel:  the third part of rivers became bitter (Wormwood).

4th Angel:  the third part of the sun, the third part of the moon, the third part of stars.

5th Angel: A Break with the Thirds. Bottomless pit the beast and locusts.

6th Angel:  a third part of men were killed.

7th Angel:  A Break with the thirds.

 

The Seven Vial Judgments essentially bring these to the FULL.  The Vials come After the Trumpet Judgments---- and although correlated with the Trumpets; they: come after/ subsequent, and have their own distinguishing characteristics.

 

 

From your "link"....

 

The seventh trumpet:

Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”  And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.  And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

 

The seventh vial:

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “It is done.”  And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.  And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.  And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

A lot of similarity between the seventh trumpet and vial.  Given that similarity, I'd say they are just moments apart.

 

 

Moments apart? Please provide Scripture Support.....?  They are "similar" in the same sense as discussed above; yet, they are different.... distinguish-ably different.

 

Lets take a close look:

 

The 7th Trumpet:

 

(Revelation 11:15-19) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  {16} And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,  {17} Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.  {18} And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  {19} And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

 

The 7th Vial:

 

(Revelation 16:17-21) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.  {18} And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.  {19} And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.  {20} And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.  {21} And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

 

 

 

7th Trumpet:  "the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

7th Vial: "and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done".

 

Great Voices (Plural) vs. a Great Voice (Singular).  out of Heaven vs. out of the Temple of Heaven---from the Throne.  Both sayings are different.

 

The 7th Trumpet has the 24 Elders falling on their faces and worshiping.  

The 7th Vial has no such thing.

 

The 7th Trumpet specifically talks about: the nations being angry, time of the dead---judgement, give reward unto thy servants the prophets, temple the ark of his testament, et al.

The 7th Vial says no such things.

 

The 7th Vial talks about:  Babylon---city divided into 3 parts, Nations Fell, And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

The 7th Trumpet says no such thing.

 

 

The 7th Trumpet:  there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings.

The 7th Vial: voices, and thunders, and lightnings.

 

These are common to both and are quite obvious..... General Descriptions.

 

7th Trumpet : "an earthquake" is not he same as.... 7th Vial: a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

 

Just like we discussed above with the "Judgments of the Thirds" the decimal point is shifted to the right with the Vial Judgments.

 

7th Trumpet: "a great hail hailstorm"  is not the same as.... 7th Vial: every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

 

Another clear example of the decimal point is shifted to the right.

 

 

When does Jesus return as a thief?

 

And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. (“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”) And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Rev 16:13-16

 

This is after the sixth vial / bowl has been poured out.  The two witnesses have just been killed and conditions around the world revert back to normal.  If that weren't true, people wouldn't be rejoicing and giving each other gifts.  They see the two witnesses as evil and as causing all the pain and misery that they've just suffered.  The false prophet is seen as victorious...until the two witnesses come back to life.  Then there's cause for concern and thus the rallying cry to gather at Armageddon.  It seems the false prophet has everything under control...but its the 45 day calm before the storm.   All that's left is the seventh trumpet and vial.  "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!" Daniel 12:12  The "shattering of the power of the holy people" in Daniel 12:7 is the death of the two witnesses.

 

 

And....?  You didn't answer your question.

 

(Revelation 16:15) "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

 

It doesn't say HE came.  Moreover, HIS Second Coming is Revelation 19...this is Before the Vial Judgments.

 

 

And you said...."All that's left is the seventh trumpet and vial"  NOT "Vial"....."VIALS" (Plural...there are 7 of them).

 

 

Also, You are aware that Daniel is speaking concerning "thy people".  Who are Daniel's People?...... The Jews.

 

 

Overall.....GOD'S WORD is Uber Precise, I think it would benefit and be a Blessing to all... if we render it accordingly.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Pete Waldo,

 

Now you said as regards `Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium,`-

 

`It's a definite doctrine based on an indefinite plural.`

 

Not sure what you mean by that but doctrines are based on a body of teaching, scriptures, from God`s word. And I have yet to see this so - called teaching/doctrine with the scriptures written out for us to see.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Argosy,

 

Thank you for your reply & acknowledging the `good point.` it seems now that you are `expanding` your view, which to me is a start. You said -

 

[quote]`I believe Jesus and us saints will have acces to both heaven and earth during the millenium, I don't believe its restrictive in any manner, for we are citizens of the Jerusalem above and also dwell in the earthly "camp of the saints".`

[ARGOSY]

Hi Argosy,

 

Thank you for your reply & acknowledging the `good point.` it seems now that you are `expanding` your view, which to me is a start. You said -

 

[quote]`I believe Jesus and us saints will have acces to both heaven and earth during the millenium, I don't believe its restrictive in any manner, for we are citizens of the Jerusalem above and also dwell in the earthly "camp of the saints".`

 

My next point is with regard to our blessed hope & inheritance. Now we know from the Apostle Peter -

 

`Blessed be the God & Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable & undefiled & will not fade away reserved in heaven for you,....` (1 Peter 1: 3 & 4)

 

Please then tell me how being on this earth in the Millennium, which is perishable & still defiled & will fade away, please tell me how that is my blessed hope & my inheritance that is imperishable & undefiled & will not fade away?

 

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

[PeteWaldo]

Hi Pete Waldo,

 

Now you said as regards `Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium,`-

 

 

 

`It's a definite doctrine based on an indefinite plural.`

 

Not sure what you mean by that but doctrines are based on a body of teaching, scriptures, from God`s word. And I have yet to see this so - called teaching/doctrine with the scriptures written out for us to see.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

The Greek word for 1000 is "chilias." In Rev 20:2 for example "chilioi" is used, which is an indefinite plural that can mean many thousands, as in an indefinite period of time. Not to suggest that it can't mean just 1000, but if strictly only 1000 was meant, for something so important as a "millennial reign", "chilias" would have been a better choice.

Edited November 4, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[Marilyn C]

Hi Pete,

 

Thank you for that information. Also, where do you believe the Body of Christ will be during what is called the Millennium?

 

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Argosy,

 

So we are agreeing on our eternal inheritance `imperishable, undefiled & will not pass away,` in heaven. However you also believe that we, or some of us will be on this earth ruling over sinful man, people sick & dying, & rebellion. Not something to really look forward to, ay?

 

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, PeteWaldo.

 

 

Hi Pete Waldo,

 

Now you said as regards `Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium,`-

 

 

 

`It's a definite doctrine based on an indefinite plural.`

 

Not sure what you mean by that but doctrines are based on a body of teaching, scriptures, from God`s word. And I have yet to see this so - called teaching/doctrine with the scriptures written out for us to see.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

The Greek word for 1000 is "chilias." In Rev 20:2 for example "chilioi" is used, which is an indefinite plural that can mean many thousands, as in an indefinite period of time. Not to suggest that it can't mean just 1000, but if strictly only 1000 was meant, for something so important as a "millennial reign", "chilias" would have been a better choice.

 

 

It’s just simply noun-adjective agreement in Greek: etee (spelled epsilon-tau-eta), meaning “years," is the accusative, neuter, plural of etas (epsilon-tau-alpha-s[t]igma), meaning “year." So, the word “chilia,” meaning “a thousand,” the accusative, neuter, plural for the adjective “chilias,” was used. They must be the same case, gender, and number. That’s how you tell in Greek when an adjective goes with a particular noun. They do NOT have to be next to each other, as they do in English.

[ARGOSY]

Hi Argosy,

 

So we are agreeing on our eternal inheritance `imperishable, undefiled & will not pass away,` in heaven. However you also believe that we, or some of us will be on this earth ruling over sinful man, people sick & dying, & rebellion. Not something to really look forward to, ay?

 

Marilyn.

 

I see no problem there. Fallen man was badly ruled for 6000+  years, and then fallen man will be better ruled for 1000 years.  The rebellion only occurs at the end, with Satan been bound during the millenium there is very little sin/rebellion until he is released at the end.  I would say the millenium is good practice for our responsibilities during eternity. In the meantime we are one with God, definitely something to look forward to.