Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

You can certainly give a good lesson on Greek & Hebrew. I do learn a lot from you, thank you.

 

As regards `the holy ones,` as I said we are to take all the scriptures pertaining to this topic to understand what God is saying. Thus I see that Christ tells us who these `holy ones` are - they are His angelic army & He is the Captain of the host.

[Rant]

Enjoying, Heaven is not one big sitting in church. We have billions of years to catch up on.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Also Spock,
 

 

Where on earth did you get that picture?  Do you really want to live for eternity in a floating box? Sorry to be laughing but it really is quite comical & sad to think that we have all the wonders here on earth then in eternity we are all in this prison-like box. Do you see what I mean?

 

Hope I haven`t offended you Spock, for I do enjoy your comments.

 

Spock's made a good effort, but the perspective is all wrong. One must remember that this is a 1,500-mile x 1,500-mile x 1,500-mile structure! Furthermore, there are key pieces of evidence that suggests that the city must land. Please take what I've drawn with a grain of salt, but this is closer to what we should expect:

 

 

Please bear in mind that this is a cut-away view to see the foundational levels of the city. The outer wall and the first foundation are constructed entirely of jasper. That's the same as the red flecks in the bloodstone that represent blood. There's no way into the city except through the blood! Recognizing that each one of the twelve gateways is probably a huge thoroughfare, they still are minuscule compared to the overall size of the city, and they are separated by a distance of 500 miles, and 250 miles to the corners! Each one of the foundational levels are 125 miles apart (less the thickness of each foundational level), and who knows, but God, how many levels there are in the golden buildings within! Since the river of the water of life flows down the middle of the street, and it is only reasonable for the street to find its way to the gates, then the river would exit onto the New Earth through those gates.

 

East to west, this city will cover parts of three time zones! Furthermore, if one were to project this city onto the current earth and assuming that it is called the New Jerusalem because its center is at the coordinates for the old Jerusalem, it would cover all of Turkey up to the southern shore of the Black Sea, all of Egypt, half of Saudi Arabia, all of Syria, most of Iraq, a portion of Iran, and a portion of the Sudan!

 

It would also cover 1/3 of the Mediterranean Sea! Being aware of the see-saw effect of a heavy object on a flexible crust, the earth would be pushed upward for several hundreds of miles from the city's edge and force most of the remaining portions of the Mediterranean Sea out into the Atlantic Ocean. Thus, there would be "no more sea" that isolated Yochanan (John) from the mainland and his friends and brothers and sisters in the seven churches to whom he wrote! It would also affect the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the Black Sea, and the Caspian Sea, chasing their waters away from the city.

 

Furthermore, its pinnacle - its capstone - the "head stone of the corner" - would be visible from Norway to Zambia and from Morocco to the eastern edge of India! Its light, the light of God shining through the Lamp, Yeshua` haMelekh (Jesus the King), would be visible from much farther away than that!

 

I believe that it is THIS city to which these verses refer:

 

Isaiah 24:23

23 Then the moon shall be confounded (mixed up in its phases), and the sun ashamed (outdone), when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

KJV

 

Psalm 48:1-2

1 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of (aligned with) the north, the city of the great King.

KJV

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Interesting picture & details however you are talking `earthly,` things. Remember this `great city,` comes down out of heaven. (Rev. 21: 2) Thus the description is all symbolic of the details of God`s government in that realm. (You did start to develop a symbol - Jasper - blood stone - Christ`s blood)

 

Now we also know that this `city,` has an architect - `whose builder & maker is God.`  (Heb. 11: 10)

 

It is `as a bride adorned...` The `as` shows us that it is figurative language. The `Bride,` purpose in eternity is the `interlocking,` the connecting of the spirit realm with the natural (newly created again). How wondrous. It will be `God dwelling` with His people in a whole new way than was possible in the `garden.`

 

The dimensions of the city, the walls, the gates, the gems etc are all wondrous symbols of what God has planned & outworked.   

Edited September 27, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

Interesting picture & details however you are talking `earthly,` things. Remember this `great city,` comes down out of heaven. (Rev. 21: 2) Thus the description is all symbolic of the details of God`s government in that realm. (You did start to develop a symbol - Jasper - blood stone - Christ`s blood)

 

Now we also know that this `city,` has an architect - `whose builder & maker is God.`  (Heb. 11: 10)

 

It is `as a bride adorned...` The `as` shows us that it is figurative language. The `Bride,` purpose in eternity is the `interlocking,` the connecting of the spirit realm with the natural (newly created again). How wondrous. It will be `God dwelling` with His people in a whole new way than was possible in the `garden.`

 

The dimensions of the city, the walls, the gates, the gems etc are all wondrous symbols of what God has planned & outworked.   

 

One should know that "heaven" simply means the "sky" in the Scriptures, both in the NT and in the OT. In the NT, it is the Greek word "ouranos" and anything above the sky is given the adjective "epouranios," the combination of "epi" and "ouranios." The term "epouranios" was employed for the sun, moon, and stars in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 ("celestial"), and for the New Jerusalem in Hebrews 12:22 {"heavenly"}. Thus, if the city comes down from God out of heaven (ouranos, which simply means the "sky"), then IT IS COMING DOWN OUT OF THE SKY! IT LANDS! It might as well land since the city is 5 times higher than our atmosphere is thick!

 

Get your head out of the ethereal clouds! This is a PHYSICAL description of a brand new city, the likes of which we've never seen before!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

You are right that the word `heavens` means sky, however God is not sloppy with His words, He does describe what He means. For example -

 

`Behold, to the Lord God belong heaven & the highest heavens,...` (heaven of heavens) (Deut. 10: 14)

`To Him who rides upon the highest heavens....` (Ps. 68: 33)

`...such a man was caught up to the third heaven..` (2 Cor. 12: 2)

`...God made....the stars ...& placed them in the expanse of the heavens...` (celestial, the universe) (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

`...the sky poured rain...` (atmospheric sky / heavens) (James 5: 18)

 

So we can quite clearly see from God`s word the various areas delineated of the `heavens.`

 

Now concerning `it landing on the earth.` If we look at Rev. 21: 24 we see that the nations shall walk by its light.` This clearly shows that this `city` has to be above the earth for the earth to revolve & receive its light.

[Marilyn C]

Hi retrobyter,

 

You need to realise that to accurately handle God`s word we need to read all scriptures pertaining to the topic.

 

Now concerning the `New Jerusalem,` being in the `heavens,` you rightly said that it is referred to in Hebrews 12: 22.  But you then go on to say this `city,`  comes out of the sky, meaning the universe. However had you realised that before this `city ` comes down from God that the Universe had been `burnt up.`

(2 Peter 3: 10) Thus when we read Rev. 21: 1 this is confirmed that the first heaven & earth has passed away.

 

So.....the `city,` the `New Jerusalem,` is not housed in the Universal heavens but in the third heavens where Hebrews 12: 22 - 24 tells us are the angels, the General Assembly of the Body of Christ, the spirits of righteous men....

Edited September 29, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

You are right that the word `heavens` means sky, however God is not sloppy with His words, He does describe what He means. For example -

 

`Behold, to the Lord God belong heaven & the highest heavens,...` (heaven of heavens) (Deut. 10: 14)

`To Him who rides upon the highest heavens....` (Ps. 68: 33)

`...such a man was caught up to the third heaven..` (2 Cor. 12: 2)

`...God made....the stars ...& placed them in the expanse of the heavens...` (celestial, the universe) (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

`...the sky poured rain...` (atmospheric sky / heavens) (James 5: 18)

 

So we can quite clearly see from God`s word the various areas delineated of the `heavens.`

 

Now concerning `it landing on the earth.` If we look at Rev. 21: 24 we see that the nations shall walk by its light.` This clearly shows that this `city` has to be above the earth for the earth to revolve & receive its light.

 

Hi retrobyter,

 

You need to realise that to accurately handle God`s word we need to read all scriptures pertaining to the topic.

 

Now concerning the `New Jerusalem,` being in the `heavens,` you rightly said that it is referred to in Hebrews 12: 22.  But you then go on to say this `city,`  comes out of the sky, meaning the universe. However had you realised that before this `city ` comes down from God that the Universe had been `burnt up.`

(2 Peter 3: 10) Thus when we read Rev. 21: 1 this is confirmed that the first heaven & earth has passed away.

 

So.....the `city,` the `New Jerusalem,` is not housed in the Universal heavens but in the third heavens where Hebrews 12: 22 - 24 tells us are the angels, the General Assembly of the Body of Christ, the spirits of righteous men....

 

"Heaven" does NOT mean the "Universe," nor will the "Universe" be "burnt up!"

There's much that we can learn when we study the fine details of the Greek language. For instance, the common word translated as "heaven" in the Greek is the word "ouranos" (NT:3772). The word simply means the "sky." There are other words that are formed from prefixes that are Greek prepositions and this root word. For instance, there is "epouranios" (NT:2032, from "epouranos," although "epouranos" is not found in the Bible). The word comes from "epi-" meaning "above" or "upon," and "ouranos" meaning "sky." It's the word that was used to describe where the sun, moon, and stars are in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. Literally, it means "above the sky," or to what we refer as "outer space," today often shortened to just "space." It was translated as "heavenly," "of things in heaven," once as "high," and "celestial":

 

1 Corinthians 15:40-41

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

KJV

 

 

Another word that is a composite is "mesouraneema" (NT:3321). (I use an "ee" for the Greek letter "eta" and an "e" for the Greek letter "epsilon.") This word comes from "meso-" meaning "in the middle of" and "ouranos" meaning "sky." Thus, it literally means "in the middle of the sky." It's found 3 times in Scripture: Revelation 8:13; 14:6; and 19:17:

 

Revelation 8:13

13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

KJV

 

Revelation 14:6-7

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

KJV

 

Revelation 19:17-18

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

KJV

 

Now, the first two times, it speaks about an "angel" flying "through" or "in" the "middle of (ouranos)"; so, it's possible that "ouranos" might mean more than just the "sky"; HOWEVER, the third passage is talking about FOWLS or BIRDS that fly in the "middle of (ouranos)." Birds cannot fly where there is no atmosphere; this is our limiting factor.

 

Next, it is commonly accepted that the three heavens are "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode." In fact, this is how the old Scofield Reference Bible used to have it in the center margin on page 1238. But, there is a better definition for the "third heaven" to which Paul refers in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4:

 

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

KJV

 

First of all, did you know that there is NO GREEK WORD FOR "UP" in verse 2? It's NOT THERE! The word translated as "caught up" is the Greek word "harpagenta," the aorist, passive, participle, accusative case, masculine singular form of the verb "harpazoo." (Again, I use an "oo" for the Greek letter "omega" and an "o" for the Greek letter "omicron.") Here's verse 2 in transliterated Greek:

 

2 Oida anthroopon en Christoo pro etoon dekatessaroon eite en soomati ouk oida, eite ektos tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden, harpagenta ton toiouton heoos tritou ouranou.

 

Literally, the word means "he was snatched away," NOT "caught up!" Other places the word is found are Matt. 11:12 ("take ... by force"); 13:19 ("catcheth away"); John 6:15 ("take ... by force"); 10:12 ("catcheth"), 28 ("shall ... pluck"), 29 ("to pluck"); Acts 8:39 ("caught away"); 23:10 ("to take ... by force"); 2 Corinthians 12:4 ("he was caught up"); 1 Thessalonians 4:17 ("shall be caught up"); Jude 23 ("pulling"); and Revelation 12:5 ("was caught up"). Look at how many times the word "up" was SUPPLIED by translators! Translators are human beings, too. They may be well-intentioned, but human beings FREQUENTLY make mistakes! Any time that someone tries to "help out" the translation of the Scriptures, they could create a STUMBLING BLOCK for their readers! By using the word "up," they have inadvertently encouraged people to think SPATIALLY, as in PHYSICAL POSITION from ground level, although that is NOT implied in the word "harpazoo!" Here's that better interpretation of "third heaven":

 

2 Peter 3:1-16

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water (1st earth and 1st heaven or sky):

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished (Noah's Flood):

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (2nd earth and 2nd heaven or sky), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (3rd earth and 3rd heaven or sky), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

KJV

 

Thus, Peter's description of a "third heaven" are the skies around the third earth, and his listing of the three earths are with TIME involved! They are CHRONOLOGICALLY three earths and skies ("heavens")! The first heaven and earth (the first earth and its atmosphere) was BEFORE the Flood, the second heaven and earth (the second earth and its atmosphere) is AFTER the Flood and BEFORE the Fire, and the third heaven and earth (the third earth and its atmosphere) will be AFTER the Fire! Of course, by this differentiation, we are currently in the second heaven and earth.

 

Furthermore, the earth - the planet - is NOT destroyed totally! Only the surface of the earth is destroyed, both in the Flood of Noah's day, and in the future Fire. Remember this: "earth" means the "GROUND!" the "SOIL!" the "DIRT!" It seldom refers to the whole planet, and when it does, it is talking about the whole collection of ground, as in a "land." It frequently refers to the "Land of Isra'el."

 

Psalm 119:89-90

89 For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

KJV

 

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

 

Psalm 72:1-8

1 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.

2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.

3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.

4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.

6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.

7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.

8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

KJV

 

Psalm 89:20-37

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.

22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.

23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.

25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.

26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

 

Now, let's look at 2 Cor. 12:1-4 in this light:

 

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one snatched away to the third sky (in the future).

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was snatched away into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

KJV

 

This is also how most prophets were shown their visions. They were given visions of the FUTURE, being snatched away as though they became spectators of those future events!

 

One more thing to round out what Paul was saying: Paradise.

 

This is a word that was TRANSLITERATED from the Greek word "paradeisos" (NT:3857)! It's only found in three places within the Greek New Testament: Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7.

 

Luke 23:39-43

39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

KJV

 

Revelation 2:1-7

1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

KJV

 

Thus, we should look at Revelation 2:7 a little more closely: Where else do we find this "tree of life?" Well, we find the species created in Genesis 2:9:

 

Genesis 2:9

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

KJV

 

And, it is mentioned in the aftermath of the Fall: Genesis 3:22, 24

 

However, it is also mentioned later in Revelation:

 

Revelation 22:1-14

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

KJV

 

Thus, it is a species of tree that is found in the middle of the street of the New Jerusalem, on either side of the River of the Water of Life!

 

Now, most do not know this, but the word "paradise" is also found in three other places in Scripture as it's Hebrew counterpart: Pardeec pronounced "par-DACE" (OT:6508): Nehemiah 2:8 ("forest"); Ecclesiastes 2:5 ("and orchards"); and Song of Solomon 4:13 ("an orchard of"). Now, look at Strong's definitions in the Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary and the Greek Dictionary:

 

NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos); of Oriental origin [compare OT:6508]; a park, i.e. (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):

KJV - paradise.

 

OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'); of foreign origin; a park:

KJV - forest, orchard.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

Most cities have parks. The New Jerusalem will be no exception! The difference is that THIS park will contain the Tree of Life, just as the original Garden of God did.

 

I've said enough, but you should know that the Hebrew word "shaamaayim" means the same as the Greek word "ouranoi," the plural of "ouranos." The Hebrew phrase "shameey hashaamaayim," translated as the "heaven of heavens," is the same as the Greek word "epouranios," talking about "outer space."

 

The Scriptures are not talking about the physical verses the "spiritual" as "non-physical" when it says "heaven and earth." It's ALL physical! The "earth" is the solid-liquid portion of our planet, and the "heaven" is the gaseous portion of our planet!

[Marilyn C]

Hi Retrobyter,

 

That was quite a detailed response. Can you clarify this for me. You said -

 

 

"Heaven" does NOT mean the "Universe," nor will the "Universe" be "burnt up!"........

The word comes from "epi-" meaning "above" or "upon," and "ouranos" meaning "sky." It's the word that was used to describe where the sun, moon, and stars are in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. Literally, it means "above the sky," or to what we refer as "outer space," today often shortened to just "space." It was translated as "heavenly," "of things in heaven," once as "high," and "celestial":`

 

And what about -

 

`And God made the two great lights.....& placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light to the earth.` (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

 

To me the `Universe,` is the same as the `Celestial heavens.` And they will need to be `burnt up` because they need to be cleansed from all the `rubbish` that has accumulated up there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Marilyn C.

 

Have a blessed Yom Kippur.

 

Hi Retrobyter,

 

That was quite a detailed response. Can you clarify this for me. You said -

 

 

 

 

"Heaven" does NOT mean the "Universe," nor will the "Universe" be "burnt up!"........

The word comes from "epi-" meaning "above" or "upon," and "ouranos" meaning "sky." It's the word that was used to describe where the sun, moon, and stars are in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. Literally, it means "above the sky," or to what we refer as "outer space," today often shortened to just "space." It was translated as "heavenly," "of things in heaven," once as "high," and "celestial":`

 

And what about -

 

`And God made the two great lights.....& placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light to the earth.` (Gen. 1: 16 & 17)

 

To me the `Universe,` is the same as the `Celestial heavens.` And they will need to be `burnt up` because they need to be cleansed from all the `rubbish` that has accumulated up there.

 

 

Sure. The problem is in the translation of the Greek words as just a couple of English words that do not give the differences between the Greek words. For instance, "ouranios" (the adjective form of "ouranos") is translated as "heavenly," but "epouranios" (the adjective form of "epouranos") is also translated as "heavenly!" That's a HUGE problem! The word that describes things IN the atmosphere (ouranios), like clouds and birds, is treated in English like the word that describes things ABOVE the atmosphere (epouranios), like the sun, moon, and stars!

 

The same thing is true for the Hebrew language. Sometimes, it's difficult to know when we are talking about IN the atmosphere (shaamaayim) and when we are talking about ABOVE the atmosphere (shaameey hashaamaayim).

 

Now, you said, "To me the `Universe,` is the same as the `Celestial heavens.` And they will need to be `burnt up` because they need to be cleansed from all the `rubbish` that has accumulated up there."

 

2 Peter 3:7-12

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

KJV

 

 

Here's the Greek of the same passage:

 

Petrou B 3:7-12

7 hoi de nun ouranoi kai hee gee too autoo logoo tetheesaurismenoi eisin puri teeroumenoi eis heemeran kriseoos kai apooleias toon aseboon anthroopoon.

8 Hen de touto mee lanthanetoo humas, agapeetoi, hoti mia heemera para Kurioo hoos chilia etee kai chilia etee hoos heemera mia.

9 Ou bradunei Kurios tees epaggelias, hoos tines braduteeta heegountai, alla makrothumei eis humas, mee boulomenos tinas apolesthai alla pantas eis metanoian chooreesai.

10 Heexei de heemera Kuriou hoos kleptees, en hee hoi ouranoi roizeedon pareleusontai stoicheia de kausoumena lutheesetai, kai gee kai ta en autee erga katakakeesetai.

11 Toutoon houtoos pantoon luomenoon potapous dei huparchein humas en hagiais anastrofais kai eusebeiaias,

12 prosdokoontas kai speudontas teen parousian tees tou Theou heemeras di' heen ouranoi puroumenoi lutheesontai kai stoicheia kausoumena teeketai?

Greek New Testament (UBS)

 

7 hoi = 7 the

de = but

nun = now/current

ouranoi = heavens/skies

kai = and/also

hee = the

gee = earth/ground

too = by-the

autoo = same

logoo = word/command

tetheesaurismenoi = reserved

eisin = are

puri = for-fire

teeroumenoi = reserved

eis = into

heemeran = a-day

kriseoos = of-judgment

kai = and

apooleias = ruin

toon = of-the

aseboon = irreverent

anthroopoon. = men.

8 Hen = 8 One-[thing]

de = but

touto = this

mee = not

lanthanetoo = be-ignorant-of

humas, = you,

agapeetoi, = loved-ones,

hoti = that

mia = one

heemera = day

para = near

Kurioo = [the]-Lord

hoos = like/as

chilia = a-thousand

etee = years

kai = and/also

chilia = a-thousand

etee = years

hoos = like/as

heemera = day

mia. = one.

9 Ou = 9 Not

bradunei = is-tardy

Kurios = [the]-Lord

tees = in-the

epaggelias, = promise,

hoos = like/as

tines = some-[men]

braduteeta = tardiness

heegountai, = deem

alla = but

makrothumei = patient

eis = to/into

humas, = us,

mee = not

boulomenos = willing

tinas = any-[one]

apolesthai = should-perish/should-be-destroyed

alla = but

pantas = all

eis = to/into

metanoian = repentance

chooreesai. = should-pass/should-enter.

10 Heexei = 10 Will-come

de = but

heemera = a-day

Kuriou = of-[the]-Lord

hoos = like/as

kleptees, = a-thief,

en = in

hee = which

hoi = the

ouranoi = heavens/skies

roizeedon = whizzingly/roaringly

pareleusontai = shall-go-by

stoicheia = orderly-arrangement/constituents

de = but

kausoumena = set-on-fire

lutheesetai, = shall-melt/dissolve,

kai = and/also

gee = earth/ground

kai = and/also

ta = the

en = in

autee = it

erga = works/accomplishments

katakakeesetai. = shall-be-burned-down-[to-the-ground].

11 Toutoon = 11 These-things

houtoos = then

pantoon = all

luomenoon = shall-melt/be-dissolved

potapous = what-possible-sort

dei = is-it-necessary

huparchein = should-become

humas = you

en = in

hagiais = holy

anastrofais = lifestyle

kai = and/also

eusebeiaias, = good-piety,

12 prosdokoontas = 12 anticipating

kai = and/also

speudontas = eagerly-awaiting

teen = the

parousian = coming/return

tees = of-the

tou = of-the

Theou = God

heemeras = day

di' (dia) = through

heen = which

ouranoi = heavens/skies

puroumenoi = burning

lutheesontai = shall-be-dissolved/melted

kai = and/also

stoicheia = orderly-arrangement/constituents

kausoumena = being-set-on-fire

teeketai? = shall-liquify/melt?

 

When the Scriptures say that the "heavens" will be "burnt up," Peter was talking about the earth's atmosphere, NOT outer space! Furthermore, one must be careful in the words that one reads and the words that then fuel one's opinions and theology. Make sure that they MATCH! Remember: Space is mostly ... well ... empty SPACE! How does THAT burn? And, the sun and the stars are ALREADY on fire! They burn with the strength of MILLIONS of atomic bombs, all going off at once!

 

There are four states of matter: solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. In a solid, the molecules vibrate, but they don't move around too much. In a liquid, the molecules can move around more freely, but they still hold together as an over-all unit. In a gas, the molecules move faster and even more freely, such that they are free to fill the space of whatever container they may be in, but in a PLASMA, the electrons are so excited that they actually fly away from their nuclei! They become a conglomerate of charged particles that can only be controlled by a magnetic "bottle." That MAY be what Peter was shown in verse 12. However, verse 10 is talking about the skies actually WHIZZING/ROARING by! It doesn't mean that the sky is destroyed; it means that the fire causes the atmosphere to blow by a stationary point, as in the outward thrust of wind from a nuclear explosion or the ash cloud expanding from a volcanic blowout! Remember, too, that sound cannot occur in a vacuum! Remember the slogan of the movie Aliens? "In space, no one can hear you scream!"

 

This matches the language in Revelation 20:11:

 

Revelation 20:11

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

KJV

 

Apokalupsis Iooannou 20:11

11 Kai eidon thronon megan leukon kai ton katheemenon ep' auton, hou apo tou prosoopou efugen hee gee kai ho ouranos kai topos ouch heurethee autois.

Greek New Testament (UBS)

 

11 Kai = 11 And/Also

eidon = I-saw

thronon = a-throne

megan = huge

leukon = white

kai = and/also

ton = the

katheemenon = Resident

ep' (epi) = upon/above

auton, = it,

hou = whose

apo = away-from

tou = of-the

prosoopou = face

efugen = fled-away

hee = the

gee = earth/ground

kai = and/also

ho = the

ouranos = heaven/sky

kai = and/also

topos = a-place

ouch = not

heurethee = was-found

autois. = for-them.

 

Think of an explosion so large that it sends gases and debris outward in all directions from a spot on the earth's surface such that there is no place left on the face of the earth for the gases and debris to go further!

 

Finally, one must be careful to investigate the words ACTUALLY USED in the Hebrew or Greek.

 

Genesis 1:14-19

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

KJV

 

Here, we can see the correct wording in the KJV text. Notice that God's focus was on the LIGHTS! He does NOT use the words, "sun" (Hebrew: shemesh) or "moon" (Hebrew: yaareeach) He calls them a "greater light" (Hebrew: hamaa'owr hagaadol) and a "lesser light" (Hebrew: hamaa'owr haqaaTon).

 

Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. The sun is roughly 93,000,000 miles away! At the speed of light, light from our own sun takes 93,000,000/186,000 = 500 seconds. That's 8.333 minutes or 8 minutes 20 seconds for the light to reach the earth! Even light from the moon, which is roughly 238,855 miles away on average, would take 1.284 seconds to get here, and to that must be added the time it takes for the light from the sun to get to the moon, since the moon has no light of its own but reflects that of the sun! So, is God going to wait around for 8.333 minutes for the light from the sun to get here? NO! He created the light FIRST, EN ROUTE to the ground - the earth! 

 

Notice verse 16: Almost as an afterthought, the Scriptures say, "(oh, by the way,) he made the stars (Hebrew: hakowkhaaViym) also." The Hebrew word means "the-round-objects" or "the-orbs." The closest star to earth is 4.5 LIGHT-YEARS away! A light-year is the distance it takes for light to travel one year at 186,000 miles per second! These are HUGE numbers in terms of miles; so, scientists speak in terms of LYs instead. Again, God wasn't going to wait around 4.5 YEARS for light to get here from the closest star or MILLIONS of years for light to get here from other stars! God created the LIGHT FIRST, already en route to earth! THEN, He created the orbs! That's how He could do it all in a single day! He created the Universe with the APPEARANCE OF AGE, just as He created Adam fully grown!

 

Hope this answered your questions.