Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

Interesting that you should say -

 

 

`Am I saying He must remain on earth all the time for that? No.`

 

So when do you believe the Lord will leave the earth in the millennium?

 

Did you study the Ezekiel 40 forward chapters I recommended?

[Salty]

 

 

Let me ponder over what you have written Salty. I endeavour to get back to you with an answer.

By the way the prophets of Old testified of messiah first and only advent, so why would their testimony be ignored here. I think that I am considering them that they are already been lifted up and reigning with Christ in his Heavenly Kingdom New Jerusalem, but apparently you have them still asleep in Abraham' Bosom. I am not the one delaying their glory with The Lord, it is the teaching that is currently being taught by you and others that have them rolling in their graves.

 

I see you refuse to see the OT Scriptures as they are actually written, about TWO advents of Messiah:

 

1st Coming:

 

Zech.9

⁹ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 

2nd Coming:

 

Zech.9

¹⁰ And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

 

Christ Jesus' first entry in Jerusalem was "lowly", riding upon an ass, to be crucified. For His second coming He rides upon a white horse to take power over all the earth. THIS IS BIBLE 101.

 

If you don't understand that, then everything you read in Scripture is going to be off kilter, and it shows in your words.

So you are saying Zechariah 9.9 is first coming and Zechariah 9:10 is second coming. So there is only one verse that separates the first and the second coming?

Come on really!

 

 

 

I see that you have missed Bible 101. It shows too...

 

Isaiah 61

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

² To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

 

The part above in blue was for Christ's 1st coming.

 

The part in red has not happened yet today, it is for Christ's 2nd coming.

 

Notice how that 2nd coming part in red is only separated with a comma in that 2nd verse. This is how timelines are sometimes given within God's Holy Writ, meaning one must PAY ATTENTION to what they are reading, and not be lazy, but consider all of what is being said carefully.

 

 

When our Lord Jesus came the 1st time, He came meek as a Lamb, to be slain.

 

But when He returns the 2nd time, He will be coming with a sword, to make war upon His enemies on earth, and then reign over them with a rod of iron, meaning He is not coming meek as a Lamb the 2nd time.

[Defending the Name]

Let me ponder over what you have written Salty. I endeavour to get back to you with an answer.

By the way the prophets of Old testified of messiah first and only advent, so why would their testimony be ignored here. I think that I am considering them that they are already been lifted up and reigning with Christ in his Heavenly Kingdom New Jerusalem, but apparently you have them still asleep in Abraham' Bosom. I am not the one delaying their glory with The Lord, it is the teaching that is currently being taught by you and others that have them rolling in their graves.

 

I see you refuse to see the OT Scriptures as they are actually written, about TWO advents of Messiah:

 1st Coming:

 Zech.9⁹ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 2nd Coming:

 Zech.9¹⁰ And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

 

Christ Jesus' first entry in Jerusalem was "lowly", riding upon an ass, to be crucified. For His second coming He rides upon a white horse to take power over all the earth. THIS IS BIBLE 101.

 

If you don't understand that, then everything you read in Scripture is going to be off kilter, and it shows in your words.

So you are saying Zechariah 9.9 is first coming and Zechariah 9:10 is second coming. So there is only one verse that separates the first and the second coming?

Come on really!

You can't pretend to speak on behalf of the Jews of that time, if they saw it as one coming and they were the original authors of this testimony, how is it that you are declaring that you know what they did not know at that time?

You are looking at things from a perspective of a child by thinking only in concrete terms within the limitations of the physical realm and you show that you really don't understand that the language of that day is poetic. The poetic language paints a spiritual picture that has a totally different meaning to what is in the natural realm and I will prove it to you.

Why don't you quote that extra verse at the end of Zechariah 9:10, like so:

Zechariah 9:9-11

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Step one: Jesus comes riding upon a colt, the foal of an ass.

Step two: Jesus will speak peace not war unto the heathen (unbelieving) Gentiles of the world.

Step three: Jesus will have a dominion from sea (nation) to sea (nation) of all the world.

Step four: Jesus will do this by the blood covenant.

You simply left out the means by which step one to step three will be achieved, because the context on how this will be achieved is in Zechariah 9:11, whereby The Lord will accomplish this magnificent feet by the atoning for the sins of the world, once and for all. Notice I said once, meaning once, right?

Yes right only once. Jesus came and conquered and redeemed men onto him through the blood covenant, for this is the means by which the everlasting gospel of peace went out even onto the unbelieving gentile nations of the world for the redemption of sins. He did not do this by war as you are implying, by collapsing the context of the two versus.

This has nothing what so ever to do with a second coming. Please don't go changing the subject on me now, since you opened this one up, stay within the context of Zechariah 9:9-11 and don't go looking for versus else where.

Let me ponder over what you have written Salty. I endeavour to get back to you with an answer.

By the way the prophets of Old testified of messiah first and only advent, so why would their testimony be ignored here. I think that I am considering them that they are already been lifted up and reigning with Christ in his Heavenly Kingdom New Jerusalem, but apparently you have them still asleep in Abraham' Bosom. I am not the one delaying their glory with The Lord, it is the teaching that is currently being taught by you and others that have them rolling in their graves.

 

I see you refuse to see the OT Scriptures as they are actually written, about TWO advents of Messiah:

 1st Coming:

 Zech.9⁹ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 2nd Coming:

 Zech.9¹⁰ And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

 

Christ Jesus' first entry in Jerusalem was "lowly", riding upon an ass, to be crucified. For His second coming He rides upon a white horse to take power over all the earth. THIS IS BIBLE 101.

 

If you don't understand that, then everything you read in Scripture is going to be off kilter, and it shows in your words.

So you are saying Zechariah 9.9 is first coming and Zechariah 9:10 is second coming. So there is only one verse that separates the first and the second coming?

Come on really!

 

I see that you have missed Bible 101. It shows too...

 

Isaiah 61

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

² To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

 

The part above in blue was for Christ's 1st coming.

 

The part in red has not happened yet today, it is for Christ's 2nd coming.

 

Notice how that 2nd coming part in red is only separated with a comma in that 2nd verse. This is how timelines are sometimes given within God's Holy Writ, meaning one must PAY ATTENTION to what they are reading, and not be lazy, but consider all of what is being said carefully.

 

 

When our Lord Jesus came the 1st time, He came meek as a Lamb, to be slain.

 

But when He returns the 2nd time, He will be coming with a sword, to make war upon His enemies on earth, and then reign over them with a rod of iron, meaning He is not coming meek as a Lamb the 2nd time.

As I anticipated you jumped from Zechariah 9:9-10 to Isaiah 61.

Collapsing the context is when a person tries to interpret the meaning of scripture through several fragmented and none related verses to try and get the bible versus say something that they clearly don't say.

You can't do that friend.

You are now jumping from Zechariah to Isaiah when you choose not to address the Zechariah versus that you introduced to support your claim. When these versus no longer worked for you along the lines of your interpretation, you then reverted to other none related versus in Isaiah 61 as I anticipated. This is scriptural gymnastics, I believe you are going to do it again if I interpret also the Isaiah 61 versus for you.

But let us try that experiment as well to prove my claim.

The Isaiah 61:3 below are the Old Covenant Jews who used to be the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held (Rev. 6:9). And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). These are the first fruits of the great harvest of God when Christ raised them up (Matthew 27:52-53) in fulfilment of Ezekiel 37:11-14 and gave them gifts (Ephesians 4:8). You can plainly see that their ashes which symbolises remembrance of those who have died are given beauty, which is why Rev. 6:9 declares that they are given beautiful and clean white robes of angels in Rev. 6:9-11.

Isaiah 61:3

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

Most of the versus in Isaiah 61 is poetry and if you cant realise that, then you miss the point of what Isaiah is trying to portray.

Look at the next verse:

Isaiah 61:6

But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,

and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

The versus below identifies the 144,000 old covenant first fruits of the harvest of God singing the song of Moses that no man can sing, after being raised from the dead. They respond to the Christ saying that by your blood you have even redeemed the Gentiles and have made us (144,000) as kings and priests. This is the boasting that the old covenant fruits declared in fulfilment of Isaiah 61:6. These redeemed are the many voices of the now angels around the throne of Christ.

Revelation 5:9-11

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Those who are redeemed from amongst men enter in through the resurrection the dead and are made priests of God and of Christ. Notice there are two groups here, the Old Covenant who ministered for the Word of God and the New Covenant who ministered for the Christ. Rev. 20:4 I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus (New Covenant) and for the word of God (Old Covenant).

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It becomes clear that the Isaiah versus below have both the Old Covenant redeemed being joined by the New Covenant (Gentiles) redeemed who also alongside the first fruits (144,000) also inherit their own land in double and have everlasting joy, which means eternal life with Christ. Isaiah 61:3 to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning is the same as Revelation 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Isaiah 61:7

For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

So Isaiah 61 is talking of the everlasting covenant that also went out to the gentile nations of the world and is in context to the raising up of the house of Jacob who are the Old Testament first fruits (144,000) along with the many gentile nations who also flock to heavenly New Jerusalem to inherit their double portion also. The Isaiah versus below provide the context of all of Isaiah 61, that is all about the resurrection of the dead when Christ brings salvation to first the old covenant Jew who were waiting in Abraham's Bosom to be given the whit angelic garments of salvation (salvage). This is the white angelic robes that were initially given to the Old Covenant bride who were asleep in their lot and waiting for the Messiah's (bridegroom) first hand only advent to raise them up from the dead. Notice the 144,000 who were crying under the altar of God were given these white garments in Rev. 6:9-11 and the remaining gentile nations also inherited these white garments, which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb Rev. 7:14.

Isaiah 61:10

I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

How you interpreted Isaiah 61: 1-2 as first and second coming is totally unfounded within the context of all of Isaiah 61 that is actually poetically conveying that the departed house of Israel will receive their eternal inheritance as the first fruits of the harvest of God and will be followed by their new covenant gentile brothers and sisters as was told to them in Rev. 6:11, that they should be patient for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So first all the harvest must be reaped by God who have their names in the book of life, before God unleashes his vengeance upon the remaining inhabitants of earth.

The complete context of Isaiah 61 is the reaping of the great harvest of God into his heavenly barn. The verse below is exactly the same as Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Isaiah 61:11

For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Do not collapse the context by using multiple unrelated versus in a fragmented way to support your theories. Bible interpreters itself in context and you do not need to jump from one verse to another to prove your point. What will happen is what I have shown you to happen and every time you repeat it, you will face the same dilemma.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Yes I have read Ez. 40 ff but our discussion of that will have to wait when it comes up on a thread about the Millennium.

[Salty]

 

As I anticipated you jumped from Zechariah 9:9-10 to Isaiah 61.

Collapsing the context is when a person tries to interpret the meaning of scripture through several fragmented and none related verses to try and get the bible versus say something that they clearly don't say.

You can't do that friend.

 

 

How wrong you are. That is EXACTLY how one does it in staying in God's Word, letting God's Word interpret Itself!

 

I gave you another example of what Zech.9:9-10 is doing, even within a SHORTER space of Scripture with Isaiah 61:1-2, which is further confirmed by Christ in Luke 4 when He read The Book to that last phrase in red, and then stopped reading.

 

If He had instead read from Zech.9:9, He would have stopped right after the Zech.9:9 verse, because verse 10 is for His 2nd coming.

 

But because you instead would rather lean upon the doctrines of men, like false Preterism, with denying Christ's second literal coming, that is also why you don't care to let God's Holy Writ interpret Itself.

[Salty]

Hi Salty,

 

Yes I have read Ez. 40 ff but our discussion of that will have to wait when it comes up on a thread about the Millennium.

 

Why did you ask me in the first place then?

[iamlamad]

 

 

As I anticipated you jumped from Zechariah 9:9-10 to Isaiah 61.

Collapsing the context is when a person tries to interpret the meaning of scripture through several fragmented and none related verses to try and get the bible versus say something that they clearly don't say.

You can't do that friend.

 

 

How wrong you are. That is EXACTLY how one does it in staying in God's Word, letting God's Word interpret Itself!

 

I gave you another example of what Zech.9:9-10 is doing, even within a SHORTER space of Scripture with Isaiah 61:1-2, which is further confirmed by Christ in Luke 4 when He read The Book to that last phrase in red, and then stopped reading.

 

If He had instead read from Zech.9:9, He would have stopped right after the Zech.9:9 verse, because verse 10 is for His 2nd coming.

 

But because you instead would rather lean upon the doctrines of men, like false Preterism, with denying Christ's second literal coming, that is also why you don't care to let God's Holy Writ interpret Itself.

 

Good job, Salty! Preterists (like Defending the Name) read with very thick, preconceived glasses on, and are blinded as to the two comings of Christ clearly shown in the Old Testament.

[Defending the Name]

Let me ponder over what you have written Salty. I endeavour to get back to you with an answer.

By the way the prophets of Old testified of messiah first and only advent, so why would their testimony be ignored here. I think that I am considering them that they are already been lifted up and reigning with Christ in his Heavenly Kingdom New Jerusalem, but apparently you have them still asleep in Abraham' Bosom. I am not the one delaying their glory with The Lord, it is the teaching that is currently being taught by you and others that have them rolling in their graves.

 

I see you refuse to see the OT Scriptures as they are actually written, about TWO advents of Messiah:

 1st Coming:

 Zech.9⁹ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 2nd Coming:

 Zech.9¹⁰ And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

 

Christ Jesus' first entry in Jerusalem was "lowly", riding upon an ass, to be crucified. For His second coming He rides upon a white horse to take power over all the earth. THIS IS BIBLE 101.

 

If you don't understand that, then everything you read in Scripture is going to be off kilter, and it shows in your words.

So you are saying Zechariah 9.9 is first coming and Zechariah 9:10 is second coming. So there is only one verse that separates the first and the second coming?

Come on really!

You can't pretend to speak on behalf of the Jews of that time, if they saw it as one coming and they were the original authors of this testimony, how is it that you are declaring that you know what they did not know at that time?

You are looking at things from a perspective of a child by thinking only in concrete terms within the limitations of the physical realm and you show that you really don't understand that the language of that day is poetic. The poetic language paints a spiritual picture that has a totally different meaning to what is in the natural realm and I will prove it to you.

Why don't you quote that extra verse at the end of Zechariah 9:10, like so:

Zechariah 9:9-11

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

Step one: Jesus comes riding upon a colt, the foal of an ass.

Step two: Jesus will speak peace not war unto the heathen (unbelieving) Gentiles of the world.

Step three: Jesus will have a dominion from sea (nation) to sea (nation) of all the world.

Step four: Jesus will do this by the blood covenant.

You simply left out the means by which step one to step three will be achieved, because the context on how this will be achieved is in Zechariah 9:11, whereby The Lord will accomplish this magnificent feet by the atoning for the sins of the world, once and for all. Notice I said once, meaning once, right?

Yes right only once. Jesus came and conquered and redeemed men onto him through the blood covenant, for this is the means by which the everlasting gospel of peace went out even onto the unbelieving gentile nations of the world for the redemption of sins. He did not do this by war as you are implying, by collapsing the context of the two versus.

This has nothing what so ever to do with a second coming. Please don't go changing the subject on me now, since you opened this one up, stay within the context of Zechariah 9:9-11 and don't go looking for versus else where.

Let me ponder over what you have written Salty. I endeavour to get back to you with an answer.

By the way the prophets of Old testified of messiah first and only advent, so why would their testimony be ignored here. I think that I am considering them that they are already been lifted up and reigning with Christ in his Heavenly Kingdom New Jerusalem, but apparently you have them still asleep in Abraham' Bosom. I am not the one delaying their glory with The Lord, it is the teaching that is currently being taught by you and others that have them rolling in their graves.

 

I see you refuse to see the OT Scriptures as they are actually written, about TWO advents of Messiah:

 1st Coming:

 Zech.9⁹ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 2nd Coming:

 Zech.9¹⁰ And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

 

Christ Jesus' first entry in Jerusalem was "lowly", riding upon an ass, to be crucified. For His second coming He rides upon a white horse to take power over all the earth. THIS IS BIBLE 101.

 

If you don't understand that, then everything you read in Scripture is going to be off kilter, and it shows in your words.

So you are saying Zechariah 9.9 is first coming and Zechariah 9:10 is second coming. So there is only one verse that separates the first and the second coming?

Come on really!

 

I see that you have missed Bible 101. It shows too...

 Isaiah 611 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;² To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

 

 

The part above in blue was for Christ's 1st coming.

 

The part in red has not happened yet today, it is for Christ's 2nd coming.

 

Notice how that 2nd coming part in red is only separated with a comma in that 2nd verse. This is how timelines are sometimes given within God's Holy Writ, meaning one must PAY ATTENTION to what they are reading, and not be lazy, but consider all of what is being said carefully.

 

 

When our Lord Jesus came the 1st time, He came meek as a Lamb, to be slain.

 

But when He returns the 2nd time, He will be coming with a sword, to make war upon His enemies on earth, and then reign over them with a rod of iron, meaning He is not coming meek as a Lamb the 2nd time.

As I anticipated you jumped from Zechariah 9:9-10 to Isaiah 61.

Collapsing the context is when a person tries to interpret the meaning of scripture through several fragmented and none related verses to try and get the bible versus say something that they clearly don't say.

You can't do that friend.

You are now jumping from Zechariah to Isaiah when you choose not to address the Zechariah versus that you introduced to support your claim. When these versus no longer worked for you along the lines of your interpretation, you then reverted to other none related versus in Isaiah 61 as I anticipated. This is scriptural gymnastics, I believe you are going to do it again if I interpret also the Isaiah 61 versus for you.

But let us try that experiment as well to prove my claim.

The Isaiah 61:3 below are the Old Covenant Jews who used to be the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held (Rev. 6:9). And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). These are the first fruits of the great harvest of God when Christ raised them up (Matthew 27:52-53) in fulfilment of Ezekiel 37:11-14 and gave them gifts (Ephesians 4:8). You can plainly see that their ashes which symbolises remembrance of those who have died are given beauty, which is why Rev. 6:9 declares that they are given beautiful and clean white robes of angels in Rev. 6:9-11.

Isaiah 61:3

To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

Most of the versus in Isaiah 61 is poetry and if you cant realise that, then you miss the point of what Isaiah is trying to portray.

Look at the next verse:

Isaiah 61:6

But ye shall be named the Priests of the Lord: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles,

and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

The versus below identifies the 144,000 old covenant first fruits of the harvest of God singing the song of Moses that no man can sing, after being raised from the dead. They respond to the Christ saying that by your blood you have even redeemed the Gentiles and have made us (144,000) as kings and priests. This is the boasting that the old covenant fruits declared in fulfilment of Isaiah 61:6. These redeemed are the many voices of the now angels around the throne of Christ.

Revelation 5:9-11

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

Those who are redeemed from amongst men enter in through the resurrection the dead and are made priests of God and of Christ. Notice there are two groups here, the Old Covenant who ministered for the Word of God and the New Covenant who ministered for the Christ. Rev. 20:4 I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus (New Covenant) and for the word of God (Old Covenant).

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It becomes clear that the Isaiah versus below have both the Old Covenant redeemed being joined by the New Covenant (Gentiles) redeemed who also alongside the first fruits (144,000) also inherit their own land in double and have everlasting joy, which means eternal life with Christ. Isaiah 61:3 to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning is the same as Revelation 21:4

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Isaiah 61:7

For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

So Isaiah 61 is talking of the everlasting covenant that also went out to the gentile nations of the world and is in context to the raising up of the house of Jacob who are the Old Testament first fruits (144,000) along with the many gentile nations who also flock to heavenly New Jerusalem to inherit their double portion also. The Isaiah versus below provide the context of all of Isaiah 61, that is all about the resurrection of the dead when Christ brings salvation to first the old covenant Jew who were waiting in Abraham's Bosom to be given the whit angelic garments of salvation (salvage). This is the white angelic robes that were initially given to the Old Covenant bride who were asleep in their lot and waiting for the Messiah's (bridegroom) first hand only advent to raise them up from the dead. Notice the 144,000 who were crying under the altar of God were given these white garments in Rev. 6:9-11 and the remaining gentile nations also inherited these white garments, which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb Rev. 7:14.

Isaiah 61:10

I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

How you interpreted Isaiah 61: 1-2 as first and second coming is totally unfounded within the context of all of Isaiah 61 that is actually poetically conveying that the departed house of Israel will receive their eternal inheritance as the first fruits of the harvest of God and will be followed by their new covenant gentile brothers and sisters as was told to them in Rev. 6:11, that they should be patient for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So first all the harvest must be reaped by God who have their names in the book of life, before God unleashes his vengeance upon the remaining inhabitants of earth.

The complete context of Isaiah 61 is the reaping of the great harvest of God into his heavenly barn. The verse below is exactly the same as Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Isaiah 61:11

For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord God will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Do not collapse the context by using multiple unrelated versus in a fragmented way to support your theories. Bible interpreters itself in context and you do not need to jump from one verse to another to prove your point. What will happen is what I have shown you to happen and every time you repeat it, you will face the same dilemma.

Christians throughout the new covenant age have been waiting for their last trumpet call when they finish their race onto death, whilst keeping the faith, to then be presented before The Lord at his appearing,for judgement and be counted as his sheep to be awarded the crown of righteousness.

Many have beheld The Lord's appearing, Saint Stephan was one of the first to testify of this before his last trumpet came when he was killed and Christ raised him on his last day as promised.

Did Saint Stephan who was one of the men of Galilee see The Lord coming with the clouds (angels) of heaven?

Yes he did!

Acts 7:55-56

55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

What did Saint Stephen say at his last trumpet call when he was ready to be desolated from his earthly body?

Acts 7:59

59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

In context to Acts 1:11 did Saint Stephan behold The Lord's appearing?

Yes!

Acts 1:11

"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Since to ok of acts is a sequentially and chronological log of events, then the testimony of Saint Stephan has The Lord appearing for him personally, just before death. So the central theme of the Lord's appearing when the thief (death) comes on a day and hour that no man knows to destroy your earthly house (body) is upon death, for death will present you before you maker. This is the coming of The Lord indicated to the men of Galilee in Acts 1:11.

Off-course all eyes will see him, because all men are destined to die once, to then be presented before The Lord at his appearing and on the last trumpet call for that individual when they die, whether they are good or wickedly.

How say some amongst you that Christ has not already come for the countless departed and how say some amongst you that there is no resurrection of the dead, for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Corinthians 15:17-19.

The resurrection encompasses the entire great harvest of God when Christ opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saints and took them to the heavenly Holy City New Jerusalem.

Jesus said that the new covenant believers will not experience death and the Holy Ghost said:

Revelation 14:13

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Did not Christ come the first time to raise the dead, so how say some amongst you that he needs to come the second time, where in scripture does it state the second time and in what context, since scripture is clear that we are only to be presented before The Lord after death and not before. So do the end day remaining elect on a God condemned earth go through death?

Off course they do, they are transferred from the earthly body to the heavenly body. So what becomes of the earthly body?

It dies. For as Saint Paul states we MUST putt off the earthly body and out on the celestial body of an angel, in order for us to b reunited with Christ. We can only be reunited with Christ after resurrection and not before.

So what does scripture state in context to the central theme that is be faithful onto death and a crown of righteousness shall be awarded to you?

Does everyone get lumped together?

No the resurrection of the dead is past for the already departed and present for those still alive and each man and women are raised according to their own order after they die and this is what is meant by the last trumpet sounding for the deported faithful, because just like a yacht race, the siren sounds at the finish line and for a believer the finish line is death. This is your unique trumpet meaning calling and this is what Saint Paul means every new covenant man in his won order:

1 Corinthians 15:23

But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Who is Saint Paul talking to when he said each in turn?

To those still living amongst him and not to Christ who is the forerunner to the resurrection and neither to the old covenant first fruits (144,000) of the harvest. Since this following scripture verse cannot be contradicted:

1 Thessalonians 4:15

According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

What did Saint Paul state in:

for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Corinthians 15:17-19

So are the dead in Christ for the last almost 2000 years remained dead?

If yes, then according to Saint Paul they have perished, never to rise again.

Get it friends, there is no death under the new covenant age for the departed in Christ, for Christ appears on their last day in the body to raise them up (Romans 8:11).

Think about it, why did Christ make this statement to his disciples?

Luke 9:60

Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

In other words to a believer in the new covenant age there is no spiritual death in a sleep state or other. The believer is raised immediately on their last day without being prevented by those still living I their earthly bodies. In other words the living are also awaiting their day of The Lord when they finish their race on their last trumpet call.

Is this not what Saint Paul told his congregation?

2 Timothy 4:8

Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Why do we long for the Lord's appearing one might say?

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The resurrection of the dead is happening before our eyes for this is why Christ came in the first place and many believers are looking in the past (Preterists) and in the future (Dispensationalists), without not even considering the present. It is amazing people look to the last and future as an escape but never the present and this perfectly summed up by why so many make Jesus cry because they don't even consider him to be the Holy Spirit of truth who will quicken their mortal bodies and raise them up on their last day (Romans 8:9-11).

Look at why we make Jesus cry because of our ignorance:

John 11:21:26

21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

See how Martha did not even consider the fact that the LIFE and THE RESURRECTION was standing before her in the present and she totally ignored and missed that, whilst she was consumed by the future, when she dared to say to Jesus "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus in a polite way rebuked her by saying hey look at me in the present:

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do you now know why Jesus wept?

Because the faithful were looking beyond his present presence and looking towards a future event and by doing this they were denying the power of God who was standing right in front of them in person as the Jesus of Nazareth.

Here is the verse where he wept:

John 11:32-35

32Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 34And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. 35Jesus wept.

I too am weeping for people as my spirit is troubled to why people are living in the past or looking towards the future whilst completely ignoring the present power of God the Holy Ghost who is the one to raise them up on their last day in their earthly bodies.

I can some it in one "FRUSTRATING".

[Salty]

Quotes by Defending the Name:

 

Christians throughout the new covenant age have been waiting for their last trumpet call when they finish their race onto death, whilst keeping the faith, to then be presented before The Lord at his appearing,for judgement and be counted as his sheep to be awarded the crown of righteousness.

 

Many have beheld The Lord's appearing, Saint Stephan was one of the first to testify of this before his last trumpet came when he was killed and Christ raised him on his last day as promised.

 

Did Saint Stephan who was one of the men of Galilee see The Lord coming with the clouds (angels) of heaven?

Yes he did!

Acts 7:55-56
55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

What did Saint Stephen say at his last trumpet call when he was ready to be desolated from his earthly body?

Acts 7:59
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

In context to Acts 1:11 did Saint Stephan behold The Lord's appearing?

Yes!

Acts 1:11
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

 

Saint Stephen was not the only one of Christ's disciples from the area of Galilee. No trumpet sounded when Stephen was stoned to death per Acts 7. Apostle Paul was not even 'chosen' yet, but held the coats of those who stoned Stephen per Acts 7. Yet Apostle Paul had much to say in his Epistles about Christ coming the "second time" still expecting for some time future.

 

In other words, Christ's appearing to His disciples for 40 days after His resurrection was NOT... His second coming prophesied by the OT prophets and His Apostles. The New Testament Scripture does not end with the Book of Acts.

 

Since to ok of acts is a sequentially and chronological log of events, then the testimony of Saint Stephan has The Lord appearing for him personally, just before death. So the central theme of the Lord's appearing when the thief (death) comes on a day and hour that no man knows to destroy your earthly house (body) is upon death, for death will present you before you maker. This is the coming of The Lord indicated to the men of Galilee in Acts 1:11.

 

Stephen seeing Jesus in the Heavenly was not a return of Jesus to the earth as prophesied by the OT prophets and Acts 1.

 

Christ's comparison at the end of Matt.24 commanding us to 'watch' for we do not know in what hour the thief comes, trying to break in the house... is NOT... the same subject of Paul's comparison in 2 Cor.5 of our flesh body to a dwelling. One is about the timing of Christ's coming, to be awake like the watchman, but the other is a comparison to show we have another type body not made with hands. One is about Christ returning to this earth to gather His elect; the other is about death in the flesh with being absent from the flesh and instead in Paradise.

 

This is why Apostle in 1 Thess.4 marked the future event of Christ's second coming with His DESCENDING from Heaven, gathering the saints that have already died, and gathering the saints still alive on earth, at the same time of His return. So if Christ came at the time of Stephen, then ALL His saints would have been gathered to Him at that time. Obviously, that did NOT happen then, nor has it happened yet to this day! You are simply preaching foolishness.

 

 

Off-course all eyes will see him, because all men are destined to die once, to then be presented before The Lord at his appearing and on the last trumpet call for that individual when they die, whether they are good or wickedly.

 

Wrong.

 

Die once and then after this the judgment per Hebrews 9. That Scripture does not tell us there that judgment is immediately after flesh death. Because so many events are written to occur prior to the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev.20, we know Christ must reign a thousand years AFTER His second coming per the Scriptures. If what you say were true, then that "thousand years" reign would have been over around 1029 A.D. per your false reckoning that Christ's second coming happened in His Apostle's days.

How say some amongst you that Christ has not already come for the countless departed and how say some amongst you that there is no resurrection of the dead, for if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Corinthians 15:17-19.

 

That's not how my KJV Bible is written on those verses...

 

1 Cor.15

¹² Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

¹³ But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

¹⁴ And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

¹⁵ Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: Whom He raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

¹⁶ For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

¹⁷ And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

¹⁸ Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

 

Funny how you chose to only quote that part of 1 Cor.15, when Apostle Paul later there goes into great detail about the time of Christ's second coming on the "last trump" change "at a twinkling of an eye".

 

What Paul was preaching there in those 12-18 verses was because some among them didn't believe in any resurrection of the dead, which was a false doctrine that the Sadduccees held. It was in regards to Christ's crucifixion and resurrection by The Father, thus sealing His gift by Faith on Him for the remission of sins. It wasn't about the subject of His second coming.

 

The resurrection encompasses the entire great harvest of God when Christ opened the tombs of the Old Covenant Saints and took them to the heavenly Holy City New Jerusalem.

 

Then by that crazy idea, there could never be any more saints gathered by Christ Jesus after that point, which of course is a huge falsehood. You're not preaching Christian Doctrine. You're preaching the false doctrines of Lucifer.

[Defending the Name]

Hello Salty,

Your statement 1:

Saint Stephen was not the only one of Christ's disciples from the area of Galilee. No trumpet sounded when Stephen was stoned to death per Acts 7. Apostle Paul was not even 'chosen' yet, but held the coats of those who stoned Stephen per Acts 7. Yet Apostle Paul had much to say in his Epistles about Christ coming the "second time" still expecting for some time future.

In other words, Christ's appearing to His disciples for 40 days after His resurrection was NOT... His second coming prophesied by the OT prophets and His Apostles. The New Testament Scripture does not end with the Book of Acts.

My reply to statement 1:

If there is a silent rapture, then why can't there be a silent trumpet that declares the passing of an individual from the earthly life. Secondly you are confusing the Lord's Appearing for this event, because the Holy Ghost was already here and Saint Stephen was said to be a faithful full of the Holy Ghost. This event is after Pentecost and not within the 40 days that you had mentioned. Jesus revealed himself to Saint Stephen when he died during the time the Holy Ghost was present in him. (Romans 8:9-11)

Your statement 2:

Stephen seeing Jesus in the Heavenly was not a return of Jesus to the earth as prophesied by the OT prophets and Acts 1.

Christ's comparison at the end of Matt.24 commanding us to 'watch' for we do not know in what hour the thief comes, trying to break in the house... is NOT... the same subject of Paul's comparison in 2 Cor.5 of our flesh body to a dwelling. One is about the timing of Christ's coming, to be awake like the watchman, but the other is a comparison to show we have another type body not made with hands. One is about Christ returning to this earth to gather His elect; the other is about death in the flesh with being absent from the flesh and instead in Paradise.

This is why Apostle in 1 Thess.4 marked the future event of Christ's second coming with His DESCENDING from Heaven, gathering the saints that have already died, and gathering the saints still alive on earth, at the same time of His return. So if Christ came at the time of Stephen, then ALL His saints would have been gathered to Him at that time. Obviously, that did NOT happen then, nor has it happened yet to this day! You are simply preaching foolishness.

My reply to statement 2:

Firstly I can see your argument is based on a faulty premise, that being that you believe that ALL his saints are gathered in one go, then as you commented by saying obviously that did not happen. The very fact that you used the faulty premise to then conclude with denying Saint Stephan's testimony, which is rather concerning to me.

Your other tunnel visioned focus is on those still remaining alive who are said to be caught up or translated immediately into their heavenly post resurrection bodies. However you have failed to recognise that the context of Matthew 24 of that day and hour is specific to an individuals passing away from this earthly life, which happens after death. So Saint Paul also states the following:

1 Thessalonians 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It is clear that the departed when they die on the last trumpet call, is tied to their last day and hour in the earthly body, they are not prevented to be raised by those still remaining alive. So this means that the resurrection of the dead is happening not in one event and in one go, but throughout the new covenant age that is the time period of the reaping of the great harvest of God.

I will endeavour to answer the remaining at a future time.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Defending the Name