Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[OneLight]

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[OneLight]

 

Even if it is history, there are lessons to be learned.

 

Yes, this is absolutely true, however, this is a far, far different statement than to suggest Paul's letters were written to us.  All you have to do is look at the titles of the letters he wrote to see that it's clear that Paul did not write a single letter to us.

 

For anyone to suggest that he did is the basis for much error in the church today.

 

 

Yet, the Holy Spirit, through Paul, is addressing us today.  We may not be the personal group Paul was addressing at the time, allowing his words to be seen as a historical view, while we are finding ourselves in the same situation they did, so his words do apply today.

[Stormcrow]

We may not be the personal group Paul was addressing at the time, allowing his words to be seen as a historical view, while we are finding ourselves in the same situation they did, so his words do apply today.

 

Some do.  Some don't.  That is why it's so very criically important to understand to whom he was writing and why. 

 

Here's a case in point.  When Jesus is recorded as saying the following, to whom were His words directed and meant?

 

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?  Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:33-35 (NIV2011)

 

The answer to this is in a preceeding passage:

 

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. Matthew 23:29 (NIV2011)

 

He concludes His invective against them with the following words:

 

Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. Matthew 23:36 (NIV2011)

 

Now, is there any question as to whom Jesus was addressing in this passage from Matthew 23?  Were His words directed to us?  How someone answers this question will reveal a lot about their understanding of Biblical interpretation (also called "Biblical hermeneutics.")

 

Failure to understand this concept called "audience relevance" is at the heart of most of the error in churches today, especially in those churches deemed to be "cults." 

 

It's important to take God's Word as written and not add our own understanding to it.  If Jesus said, "this generation", did He really mean "that generation" 2,000 years hence, as so many today read His words? 

Edited September 30, 2014 by Stormcrow

[Guest]

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

 

What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

 

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

 

The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,

 

for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”

 

But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 (NIV)

 

~

 

Yes, this is absolutely true....

 

however, this is a far, far different statement....

 

than to suggest Paul's letters were written to us.... 

 

All you have to do is look at the titles of the letters he wrote....

 

to see that it's clear that Paul did not write a single letter to us....
 

For anyone to suggest that he did is the basis for much error in the church today....

 

~

 

Beloved, The LORD Wrote 66 Books

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

We believe that the 66 books of the Canon, from Genesis to Revelation are the exhaustive, inerrant and inspired word of God. http://www.worthynetwork.com/statement-of-faith

 

Through 40 Authors For Our Salvation And Edification Over A Period Of About 1,500 Years

 

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:15

 

And For Anyone To Teach That HE Did Not Use Saul To Write To Us

 

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:20-21

 

Is To Both Call God's Word A Lie

 

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

 

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

 

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

 

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1 Corinthians 1:17-23

 

And To Form The Bases

 

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

 

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

 

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

 

That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Corinthians 1:24-31

 

For Eternal Error

 

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Colossians 2:8-10

 

In The Earth

 

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

 

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

 

And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Timothy 4:1-4

 

Today

 

~

 

But Then Again Dear One

 

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— Ephesians 3:1 (NIV)

 

Sadly, Based On Your Refusal To Believe Scripture

 

Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, Ephesians 3:8 (NIV)

 

And Your Stated Desire To Turn Folk Away From Holy Writ Written For Us By Hand Of Apostle Saul

 

For this reason I kneel before the Father,

 

from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

 

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,

 

so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,

 

may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

 

and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Ephesians 3:14-19

 

You Already Knew That

 

~

 

Believe

 

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

Be Very Blessed

 

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:8-9

 

Love, Joe

[Sister]

Actually, given the context of the entire passage you cited, it does.  The disciples heard Christ tell the religious leaders only hours before that their "house would be left desolate" (Matthew 23:38)

Stormcrow

Yes, but do you think that the religious leaders who Jesus spoke of, ... who were antichrist by the way, do not exist today?

Are there not scribes today, rewriting the word of God?, re-translating God's word over and over, corrupting, leaving out verses, changing words to cause disputes over doctrine?

Are there not scribes today writing their own books?

 

Those scriptures were for them back then, and for us today also.  For every generation, that is hungry for truth will get something out of these scriptures that reflects on what is happening, no matter what time frame they are living in.

 

and that the "house" to which He was referring was, in fact, the Temple (Matthew 24:1-2).  They clearly associated the end of the age with the destruction of the Temple in their private questioning of Him (Matthew 24:3) and He did not correct them.  Instead, He gave them signs as to when they could expect to see His coming at the end of the age, the last of which is cited above.

 

 

 

 Matthew 24:1   And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

 Matthew 24:2   And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

 

Yes that happened in 70AD, and he was speaking to them, but if you read on, he is speaking to us now.

 

  Matthew 24:3   And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (not the end of the age)

  Matthew 24:4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

  Matthew 24:5   For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.  (White horse - rev 6:2)

  Matthew 24:6   And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (Red horse - rev 6:4)

  Matthew 24:7   For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (Black horse - rev 6:5-7)

  Matthew 24:8   All these are the beginning of sorrows.

(now the false prophet will come, the pale horse.  Christianity wiped out on a global scale)

  Matthew 24:9   Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. (happened to them then, and will happen to us also)

  Matthew 24:10   And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. (happened to them, and will happen again)

  Matthew 24:11   And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. (false prophets, plural.  what's a false prophet?  Someone claiming to be holy, bringing in a new doctrine, maybe he heals, or speaks tongues, or falsely prophesises. Someone imitating a man of God)

  Matthew 24:12   And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (evil has to reach it's peak.  It has to grow to the max, before it's cut down.  The days are more evil now, then then)

  Matthew 24:13   But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (speaking to all generations.  endure to the end of your life)

  Matthew 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (the gospel was not preached through-out the world back then. Notice it says "Gospel", does not mean "the truth" but the name of Jesus Christ has spread, and what he did, people are still hearing of him for the first time, in all corners of the earth, young people included, they must get a chance.)

  Matthew 24:15   When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  (not happened yet.  Not for them)

 

So these scriptures apply to both generations, but mostly for us now, because the end of the world did not happen for them, just the end of Jerusalem, destroyed by the Romans, and not destroyed because of nations turning against nations.

 

 

By the time Paul had written his letters to the Romans and Colossians, Paul wrote that Christ's words in Matthew 24:14 had, indeed, been fulfilled, and he wrote it not once or twice but several times.

 

You are wrong brother.  The gospel had a long way to go before it reached the whole world.  It is still reaching.

It wasn't until the 1600's that the bible became available to anyone who wanted to read it, without being persecuted, in most parts, for it was published in one book having all the scrolls contained in one, and has really spread since then.

 

[Sister]

 

Paul's gathering is still in our future

 

Then why did he also write this to them?

 

Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thessalonians 1:1 (NASB)

 

This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

 

Stormcrow.

 

This is how the gospel was spread.  To those early churches first,.... which kept record of Paul's letters, .....and preserved them for us today.

 

Everyone in Christ must suffer.  If we are not suffering in one form or another, then we should check our salvation.

Are you not different from the world?

Does your family or friends treat you different because you dislike certain things they do... that go against the scriptures?

Do people knock you for your belief? Call you names behind your back?  Mock you? Make fun of you, or your God?

Do you stay home on new years eve, when everybody is partying and getting drunk?

Or have they stopped inviting you to their parties?

Do you say no to things your flesh desires?

Do you thirst for justice?

Does your soul sorrow because you see so much pain around,

or is everything just hunky dory, going wonderful for you?

 

 

For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,  and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,  dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8 (NASB)

 

Paul was writing specifically to the Thessalonians, as is clear in verse 1.  Are you a member of that church to whom he addressed that letter?  If not, he was not writing to you.

 

He was writing to us, the believers.  Nothing has changed.  We all have once common enemy.

 

Next, he included himself in the afflictions which they were suffering?  Has the apostle Paul ever shared in any of your afflictions?  If not, he did not write this to you.

 

In order to properly understand apostolic eschatology, you must understand it through the eyes of those to whom it was written in the time during which it was written.  To do otherwise is to rip Paul's words completely out of context.

 

 

 

We will find out what real suffering is when the time is appointed, and these afflictions we endure now will seem like a walk in the park.

Every single word spoken in this book and all the others, is the spirit speaking to all of us, ....the Word of Life.

[Stormcrow]

So these scriptures apply to both generations, but mostly for us now, because the end of the world did not happen for them, just the end of Jerusalem, destroyed by the Romans, and not destroyed because of nations turning against nations.

 

So when Peter writes, "The end of all things is near." 1 Peter 4:7 (NIV2011) he was writing to us? 

 

When John writes, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." Revelation 1:3 (NIV2011) he was writing to us?

 

When James writes, "You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near." James 5:8 (NIV2011) he was writing to us?

 

When Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Matthew 24:34 (NIV2011) he was speaking to us?

 

Finally, when Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28 (NIV2011) was He talking to us or the very people who were standing right in front of Him; His disciples?

 

Virtually every single letter and gospel in the NT contains promises of Christ's return made to the people living then, which is made perfectly clear by the language they used to communicate it.  Words like "soon", "near", "at hand", "at the door" all communicate imminence and urgency.  Now, either Christ did what He promised or He did not.  But if He did not, why follow Him?  I'll leave you with what an atheist wrote about the problem for Christianity regarding Christ's promise of His return for the first century church:

 

I am concerned with Christ as He appears in the Gospels, taking the Gospel narrative as it stands, and there one does find some things that do not seem to be very wise. For one thing, he certainly thought that His second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove that. He says, for instance, "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come." Then he says, "There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom"; and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed that His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of His earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching. When He said, "Take no thought for the morrow," and things of that sort, it was very largely because He thought that the second coming was going to be very soon, and that all ordinary mundane affairs did not count. I have, as a matter of fact, known some Christians who did believe that the second coming was imminent. I knew a parson who frightened his congregation terribly by telling them that the second coming was very imminent indeed, but they were much consoled when they found that he was planting trees in his garden. The early Christians did really believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In that respect, clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and He was certainly not superlatively wise.

-- Bertrand Russell

What Russell is saying here that should be a cause of concern for all in the church, is that if Christ did not return to His first century followers, as He clearly promised, then Christ did not keep His promise, and a man who promised so much and failed to deliver is not worth believing in.

 

Surely God, who created the universe and language would've chosen words other than "soon" and "near" to communicate Christ's retun if His return had been promised to us, yes?

 

When Christ said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened", I must choose whether I will take Him at His very clearly worded promise to that generation of His disciples, or try to reinterpret His words to mean something set far off into distant generations applying to us.  But if I have to change His words to fit my belief, then they're not really His words anymore, are they???

 

Think about it.

 

[Stormcrow]

And For Anyone To Teach That HE Did Not Use Saul To Write To Us Is To Both Call God's Word A Lie And To Form The Bases

For Eternal Error...Sadly, Based On Your Refusal To Believe Scripture And Your Stated Desire To Turn Folk Away From Holy Writ Written For Us By Hand Of Apostle Saul

 

Well, first of all, I do not call God's Word a lie.  It is the inspired, inerrant, revealed truth.  So let's put that to rest right off the bat.

 

Second, I do not refuse to believe scripture as I use it extensively in every post I make about it! 

 

Third, I have never stated a desire to "turn folk away from holy writ."  I have never stated such a desire because my desire is to have people return to scripture and read it as the Bereans did, testing what the apostles wrote without any prconceived notions or doctrinal blinders on! 

 

My purpose here is very simple: to help people understand the Bible, as it is God's revelation about Himself and salvation.  But in order to understand it, we have to read it as it was written, and that starts with a simple premise:

 

If I write a letter to my wife, does that mean those in the church are entitled to read it as though it is also addressed to them?  If the answer is "no", then why do you read the NT epistles this way???

Edited September 30, 2014 by Stormcrow

[Stormcrow]

The gospel had a long way to go before it reached the whole world.

 

The whole world as we know it, not the whole world as they knew it 2,000 years ago.

 

How the Christian doctrine soon spread throughout the whole world.

Thus, then, under a celestial influence and co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly irradiated the whole world. Presently, in accordance with divine prophecy, the sound of his inspired evangelists and apostles had gone throughout all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. Throughout every city and village, like a replenished barn floor, churches were rapidly found abounding, and filled with members from every people.

The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus.

 

And now, here is a truly historical account that confirms the words of Paul.

 

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14 (NIV2011)

 

And what did Paul write again???

 

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Romans 1:8 (NIV2011)

 

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Romans 10:18 (NIV2011)

 

but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB)

 

because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel  which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB)

 

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:23 (NASB)

 

Doctrine must conform to Christ's word, not the other way around. 

 

Jesus said it.  I believe it.  That settles it.

[Persuaded]

So when Peter writes, "The end of all things is near." 1 Peter 4:7 (NIV2011) he was writing to us? 

 

When John writes, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." Revelation 1:3 (NIV2011) he was writing to us?

 

When James writes, "You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near." James 5:8 (NIV2011) he was writing to us?

 

When Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Matthew 24:34 (NIV2011) he was speaking to us?

 

Finally, when Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28 (NIV2011) was He talking to us or the very people who were standing right in front of Him; His disciples?

 

Virtually every single letter and gospel in the NT contains promises of Christ's return made to the people living then, which is made perfectly clear by the language they used to communicate it.  Words like "soon", "near", "at hand", "at the door" all communicate imminence and urgency.  Now, either Christ did what He promised or He did not.  But if He did not, why follow Him?  I'll leave you with what an atheist wrote about the problem for Christianity regarding Christ's promise of His return for the first century church:

 

-snip-

 

Surely God, who created the universe and language would've chosen words other than "soon" and "near" to communicate Christ's retun if His return had been promised to us, yes?

 

When Christ said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened", I must choose whether I will take Him at His very clearly worded promise to that generation of His disciples, or try to reinterpret His words to mean something set far off into distant generations applying to us.  But if I have to change His words to fit my belief, then they're not really His words anymore, are they???

 

Think about it.

 

 

Yes, 1 Pet 4:7, James 5:8, and Rev 1:3 are for us. We are to live as though our life will be required of us, at any moment.

 

Also, the only context in which scripture expressly indicates that God is using a different clock than we on the earth is in regard to Christ's second coming, as an expression of His mercy. How many on this forum would have been denied a chance to believe, if He had come ten or twenty years ago? Peter says His delay is so that more may choose Him:

 

[2Pe 3:7-10 NKJV] But the heavens and the earth [which] are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

 

Mat 24:32-34 is for the generation that sees the signs, they will see the whole drama unfold. The prior verse, linking it to the parable of the fig tree, sheds light on this. When you see the fig tree shoot forth leaves, you know summer is near, so you also when you see these things (what things- the signs he has spoken of in verses 7 -after He says the end is not yet- through 24) know the end is near, and the generation that sees the beginnings of the signs, will see them completed. (my paraphrase)

 

Rev 1:1 gives a further hint of this idea, when it says "things which must shortly take place". The word "shortly" is translated a few ways, but basically means quickly, in quick succession, or suddenly. It's talking about how it will take place, not when.

 

And Mat 16:28 is understood by most to refer to the transfiguration, His "appearing in His kingdom", which happens six days later -the chapter break is in a tragic location here. "Not taste death" is also a euphamism for "before the next sabbath (sacrifice)". If, as you claim, this refers to those standing there seeing His second coming, then it happened in secret. Jesus emphatically said His second coming would not be secret:

 

[Mat 24:23-27 NKJV] "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here [is] the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe [it].

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

"See, I have told you beforehand.

"Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; [or] 'Look, [He is] in the inner rooms!' do not believe [it].

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

 

Preterists are to be commended for the importance they place on the "time statements", but if they'd apply the same literalness to the rest of scripture I think they'd see they've painted themselves into an untenable corner.