OakWood Posted September 4, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted September 4, 2014 But repaying violence with violence is revenge isn't it? And I made it clear that revenge belongs to the Lord only. There is no repayment involved. You've 'straw-manned' me a bit there. Defending yourself is not repaying violence with violence. Defending yourself is using physical means to protect yourself against violence. 'Repayment' suggests that you have acted AFTER the fact - which I did not condone. No Intention of straw-manning you as you put it. Although, right there is the disagreement i have with most here, if defending yourself is not repaying violence with violence, then why didn't the NT apostles ever defend themselves? Because, as I have already pointed out they had special missions................ Clerics do not necessarily defend themselves Monks take vows of chastity and never marry (probably unscriptural actually because I see no reason for anybody to become a monk) Prophets prophecise Teachers teach Some men abandon their wives, forsake all their possessions and wander the Earth preaching Some men stay with their wives, raise kids and own property Some men are defenders of the faith, fight in wars, protect the innocent and protect the land Some men grow crops and feed others Some men are carpenters and so on....... God is not a respecter persons. He has one standard for all. Besides, They ( the apostles ) just like the Lord Jesus Christ were an example for us to follow. We are suppose to be a light in a dark world. An example of the compassion, mercy and love of God. Allowing the Lord Jesus Christ to carry on his earthly ministry through us. For it's not us who lives, but Jesus who lives in and through us. Now Since it's Christ that's suppose to live through us, since it's Christ we are suppose to be an example of and bring Glory to, how does responding to violence with more violence accomplish this? P.S. In case you think I'm just talking off the top of my head, and to save me the trouble of having to repeat it if you do think I'm talking off the top of my head, please go to page 5 of this thread and read my post #88. Fair enough. God has one standard for all. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Are you married? If so then you should abandon your wife, leave her, sell your house, give all your possessions to the poor, travel, preach to the World and die for the cause of God. If you are not prepared to do this then you are not living the life of a disciple which you are called upon to do so. If you cannot do this then your words are empty. You cannot cherry pick. Are you prepared to live the life of a disciple or not? God has ONE standard for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted September 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Fair enough. God has one standard for all. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Are you married? If so then you should abandon your wife, leave her, sell your house, give all your possessions to the poor, travel, preach to the World and die for the cause of God. If you are not prepared to do this then you are not living the life of a disciple which you are called upon to do so. If you cannot do this then your words are empty. You cannot cherry pick. Are you prepared to live the life of a disciple or not? God has ONE standard for all. having one standard of behavior for all is not the same as having one calling for all. If you are going to be spiteful and rude about this, then I am done with this conversation. If you want to believe it is biblical to respond to violence with violence, then be my guest and live a life of violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 i've always been curious how one could think doing nothing to protect someone from harm is a reflection of Christ's love. my exact thought, I just wasnt able to put words to it like you did. Its really a selfless act when one does not concern themselves with thier own saftey but instead puts others before themselves. I have done this before and was told my actions were both stupid and brave. I do not care if it is stupid. I feel what I did was right and I would do it again without hesitation. I am proud of those moments in my life. if i stood by and did nothing to try to stop harm being perpetrated against someone else, i would consider myself a coward who did NOT trust God to give me the strength and courage to protect the innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 i guess firestorm didn't want to answer my questions. but just in case he overlooked it, let me repost it. firestormx do you believe Jesus and God are of one accord? do you believe that God is the same, yesterday, today and forever? do you believe God when He says He is a God of justice and that vengeance is His? do you believe that the OT is relevant to teaching us about God's character, and therefore the character of Jesus Christ as well? do you believe that God's people were justified in rebuilding the walls of jerusalem while bearing weapons to defend their progress and their people? do you believe God was serious when He instructed His people to wipe out evil, in some instances leaving not even women, children or cattle from enemy nations alive? do you believe that God uses His people to carry out His will, including justice? do you believe that Jesus told His disciples that if they had no sword to sell their cloak and buy one? do you believe that there is any distinction between an act of revenge and an act of defending oneself or someone else? please try not to dismiss any of the questions. they're all important to understanding where you are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakWood Posted September 4, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 867 Topics Per Day: 0.24 Content Count: 7,331 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,860 Days Won: 31 Joined: 04/09/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/28/1964 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Fair enough. God has one standard for all. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Are you married? If so then you should abandon your wife, leave her, sell your house, give all your possessions to the poor, travel, preach to the World and die for the cause of God. If you are not prepared to do this then you are not living the life of a disciple which you are called upon to do so. If you cannot do this then your words are empty. You cannot cherry pick. Are you prepared to live the life of a disciple or not? God has ONE standard for all. having one standard of behavior for all is not the same as having one calling for all. If you are going to be spiteful and rude about this, then I am done with this conversation. If you want to believe it is biblical to respond to violence with violence, then be my guest and live a life of violence. I really don't know what you are talking about. 1/ Does 'responding to violence with violence mean' that you respond to violence physically with a physical defence? If so then yes I agree with that. 2/ Does responding to violence with violence mean that you should respond AFTER the fact either through anger or because of personal revenge? If so then I don't agree with that. As for the disciples - why did they never respond physically? Why did they never defend themselves physically? Because, as I have told you already, they had a different calling. But you then said that we should all aspire to be like the disciples - so are you suggesting that every one of us should follow their calling or should we just be like them a bit (in the pacifist way) but not be like them in other ways (such as the abandoning wives way) I can't see how you could be half and half. Could you really stay with your wife and kids but never defend them if they were attacked, because you choose to be a punchbag but didn't want to leave your family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted September 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted September 4, 2014 i guess firestorm didn't want to answer my questions. but just in case he overlooked it, let me repost it. firestormx do you believe Jesus and God are of one accord? Yes do you believe that God is the same, yesterday, today and forever? Yes do you believe God when He says He is a God of justice and that vengeance is His? Yes, his not ours do you believe that the OT is relevant to teaching us about God's character, and therefore the character of Jesus Christ as well? Yes do you believe that God's people were justified in rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem while bearing weapons to defend their progress and their people? Yes, God's justice is not ours. do you believe God was serious when He instructed His people to wipe out evil, in some instances leaving not even women, children or cattle from enemy nations alive? Yes, God's judgement not ours. do you believe that God uses His people to carry out His will, including justice? Yes, this I support. do you believe that Jesus told His disciples that if they had no sword to sell their cloak and buy one? Yes, but in the garden he rebuked Peter for using it. do you believe that there is any distinction between an act of revenge and an act of defending oneself or someone else? yes, if God said to do it. he is judge not us. please try not to dismiss any of the questions. they're all important to understanding where you are coming from. I apologize to you. I didn't see your questions to me before. My answers are in green Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted September 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Fair enough. God has one standard for all. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Are you married? If so then you should abandon your wife, leave her, sell your house, give all your possessions to the poor, travel, preach to the World and die for the cause of God. If you are not prepared to do this then you are not living the life of a disciple which you are called upon to do so. If you cannot do this then your words are empty. You cannot cherry pick. Are you prepared to live the life of a disciple or not? God has ONE standard for all. having one standard of behavior for all is not the same as having one calling for all. If you are going to be spiteful and rude about this, then I am done with this conversation. If you want to believe it is biblical to respond to violence with violence, then be my guest and live a life of violence. I really don't know what you are talking about. 1/ Does 'responding to violence with violence mean' that you respond to violence physically with a physical defence? If so then yes I agree with that. 2/ Does responding to violence with violence mean that you should respond AFTER the fact either through anger or because of personal revenge? If so then I don't agree with that. As for the disciples - why did they never respond physically? Why did they never defend themselves physically? Because, as I have told you already, they had a different calling. But you then said that we should all aspire to be like the disciples - so are you suggesting that every one of us should follow their calling or should we just be like them a bit (in the pacifist way) but not be like them in other ways (such as the abandoning wives way) I can't see how you could be half and half. Could you really stay with your wife and kids but never defend them if they were attacked, because you choose to be a punchbag but didn't want to leave your family? So let me understand you correctly. You are saying that God is to weak and puny to defend his children. That god is weak that people must rise up and act out of their flesh because God is just to puny and weak to defend his children. God is not in control of anything, so we must do everything our selves because salvation lies not in Jesus but in guns. This is what you are saying correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 then i really don't understand where your problem with this issue lies. sure, peter was rebuked in the garden for using his sword... because he used it out of ANGER. He clearly expected his disciples to carry weapons. what did you think He intended for them to use them as, walking canes? He expected them to use them in defense from robbers or other dangers. NOT out of personal revenge. if i'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that anyone who wields a sword (gun) in tis day and age is doing so purely out of personal vengeance. you're judging people's motives and intentions here, and are rejecting the possibility (probability actually) that God is using His people today to carry out His justice, not their own. you are acting as judge and jury, and finding them guilty. and yet you said that you recognize the distinction between defense and vengeance, and state that if God tells one to do it, He is the one to stand in judgment... of course, if He directs someone to defend the innocent or even property (which is also biblical), then there would be no judgment. so why are YOU offering judgment? apostles were called to be missionaries. they were permitted and even instructed by Jesus to carry weapons. however, they were also instructed to be willing to die for their faith. so to my understanding, they could use them for self defense whereas it was not their faith they were being persecuted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 Fair enough. God has one standard for all. If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 Are you married? If so then you should abandon your wife, leave her, sell your house, give all your possessions to the poor, travel, preach to the World and die for the cause of God. If you are not prepared to do this then you are not living the life of a disciple which you are called upon to do so. If you cannot do this then your words are empty. You cannot cherry pick. Are you prepared to live the life of a disciple or not? God has ONE standard for all. having one standard of behavior for all is not the same as having one calling for all. If you are going to be spiteful and rude about this, then I am done with this conversation. If you want to believe it is biblical to respond to violence with violence, then be my guest and live a life of violence. I really don't know what you are talking about. 1/ Does 'responding to violence with violence mean' that you respond to violence physically with a physical defence? If so then yes I agree with that. 2/ Does responding to violence with violence mean that you should respond AFTER the fact either through anger or because of personal revenge? If so then I don't agree with that. As for the disciples - why did they never respond physically? Why did they never defend themselves physically? Because, as I have told you already, they had a different calling. But you then said that we should all aspire to be like the disciples - so are you suggesting that every one of us should follow their calling or should we just be like them a bit (in the pacifist way) but not be like them in other ways (such as the abandoning wives way) I can't see how you could be half and half. Could you really stay with your wife and kids but never defend them if they were attacked, because you choose to be a punchbag but didn't want to leave your family? So let me understand you correctly. You are saying that God is to weak and puny to defend his children. That god is weak that people must rise up and act out of their flesh because God is just to puny and weak to defend his children. God is not in control of anything, so we must do everything our selves because salvation lies not in Jesus but in guns. This is what you are saying correct? can i answer that? it has nothing to do with God being too weak or puny to defend His children. it has everything to do with God using His children to carry out His purpose. it has everything to do with OBEDIENCE to that which God demands of you in a given situation. you have already acknowledged in response to my questions that you do indeed believe that God used His people to carry out His judgement, to the extent of annihilating entire civilizations. you have also acknowledged that if God tells a person to use force to defend the innocense, that it is God's place to do so and that He does so even today. you even acknowledge that Jesus Himself told His disciples to carry weapons. so what then is your issue with christians who take that responsibility and who are willing to be used by God in whatever capacity God calls them to act? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted September 4, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted September 4, 2014 then i really don't understand where your problem with this issue lies. sure, peter was rebuked in the garden for using his sword... because he used it out of ANGER. He clearly expected his disciples to carry weapons. what did you think He intended for them to use them as, walking canes? He expected them to use them in defense from robbers or other dangers. NOT out of personal revenge. if i'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that anyone who wields a sword (gun) in tis day and age is doing so purely out of personal vengeance. you're judging people's motives and intentions here, and are rejecting the possibility (probability actually) that God is using His people today to carry out His justice, not their own. you are acting as judge and jury, and finding them guilty. and yet you said that you recognize the distinction between defense and vengeance, and state that if God tells one to do it, He is the one to stand in judgment... of course, if He directs someone to defend the innocent or even property (which is also biblical), then there would be no judgment. so why are YOU offering judgment? apostles were called to be missionaries. they were permitted and even instructed by Jesus to carry weapons. however, they were also instructed to be willing to die for their faith. so to my understanding, they could use them for self defense whereas it was not their faith they were being persecuted for. No I think anyone who uses a gun in self defense, outside of the direct instruction of God, has made their own Judgment instead of letting God judge and is carrying out their own form of justice and not God's. God is the judge, if he chooses to render judgement and execute it through a person than that's God's right for he is the judge of us all. This I have no problem with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts