Are those who view evolution as the best explanation of speciation des

[JTC]

I don't think believing evolution is right can put you in hell if you believe in God and obey Him as best you can. But this was answered very well already.

 

The sacrifice question always bothered me too. First of all, God says (and I can't find where right now) that He doesn't delight in burnt offerings. What He really wants is a broken and contrite heart. That's what pleases God.

So why did he have the people make animal sacrifices? Because sin requires a payment. He made the people sacrifice something of value to show them how serious sin is. (even so, most of them never got it through their heads) Finally, for a reason we may not fully comprehend until all is clear, that is after death, to pay for all sins God Himself had to become human and sacrifice His earthly body as payment. There are mysteries in our beliefs, and this is 1 of them. The more a person realizes this, the less he sins. Because sin is so serious to God He had to pay for it Himself.

 

I admit this is a poor explanation. I understand it much more than I did 20 years ago, but explaining it isn't easier.

[jerryR34]

 

 

However, Jerry, you don't seriously suggest that this is all about speciation do you?

Some seem to think that evidence of speciation should be evidence against the Bible.  Evidence for evolution seems to be a deal-breaker for creationists.  Creationists want to close their eyes, plug their ears and ignore obvious evidence for biological evolution.

Edited September 14, 2014 by jerryR34

[Fez]

 

 

 

However, Jerry, you don't seriously suggest that this is all about speciation do you?

Some seem to think that evidence of speciation should be evidence against the Bible.  Evidence for evolution seems to be a deal-breaker for creationists.  Creationists want to close their eyes, plug their ears and ignore obvious evidence for biological evolution.

 

Creationists want to close their eyes, plug their ears and ignore obvious evidence for biological evolution.

 

No. Creationists just simply believe in God's Word without trying to shoehorn theory's that is an attempt by many to obfuscate God in order that they may change the Word to suit their own ends.

 

Simple when it comes to Jesus is not a bad thing. The length and endless pointless discussions on threads such as these should be proof enough of that.

[Guest Ehud]

Some seem to think that evidence of speciation should be evidence against the Bible. Evidence for evolution seems to be a deal-breaker for creationists. Creationists want to close their eyes, plug their ears and ignore obvious evidence for biological evolution.

 

I've been around many Creationists and have not seen what you describe here. In fact all mainstream Creationists, young earth or otherwise, willingly embrace the observations that clearly support speciation or so-called biological evolution. I believe the real problem is that when most folks, both believers and unbelievers, use the term evolution they are not referring to speciation (or changing distributions of alleles) but actually the goo to you idea. However, I will not belabor this point as it has been dealt with previously. If you wish to continue to debate speciation, you might consider finding a forum where the folks don't believe in it (I imagine everyone here does).

 

Just out of curiosity, how would you answer your own question in the OP? I'm assuming you don't believe in the notions of Heaven and Hell, but I could be wrong.

 

Hold the Fort,

Ehud

 

[GoldenEagle]

Not sure if my title is too long, but here it is just in case:  "Are those who view evolution as the best explanation of speciation destined for hell?"

 

 

 

I've been taught that believing Jesus is my Lord and Savior is enough to secure a place in Heaven for me.  In your reading of the scripture, can I go there if I believe science has the best answers for what we see here in nature?

I'd be interested in hearing how you would answer this question Jerry.

God bless,

GE

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Jerry

    Nice to see you here again asking questions,always a pleasure.Jerry,I think either we are not expressing our thoughts adequitely or you are really misunderstanding what we are saying ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,for example...

 

OneLight, on 11 Sept 2014 - 07:46 AM, said:

    Believing that Jesus is the Christ and accepting His salvation is only the beginning. If there is no fruit, the tree will be cut down and burned. If there is no change, then one is not following Christ. If we continue to follow the world, we have turned from God.

    

 

I grew up Catholic.  What you are saying is so contrary to what I've learned about Protestantism.  Once you truly believe and give your life to Christ, you cannot lose your salvation.  What you are saying sounds more like Catholicism where works get you into Heaven.  It makes one understand why the Catholic faith develop the way it did from scripture.  Does believing the evidence of evolution is the best explanation of speciation worthy of getting "cut down and burned"?

 Its not at all about works,Jerry ....Jesus did it all for us on the cross,His finished work ,nothing to add by our own efforts,,,,,,believing in Him ,Who He is & that willingness to forsake ones self & repent is how we receive the Grace of God & are Saved......I believe what One Light is saying & as the Scriptures reveal to us is that after we receive Christ as Lord & Savior then we have Him abiding in us,,,,,,there is evidence of this as Gods Word tells us"You will know them by their fruits".........Our works are a RESULT of the indwelling,we are new creatures in Christ Jesus & by the Power of the Holy Spirit we are transformed ,we have renewed minds.......we cannot possibly continue to live & think the way we did before accepting Jesus as Lord of our life,,,,,,,,saying Jesus is Lord & Savior & believing it may not be with an earnest repentant heart(lip service),Jesus said 'IF you love me you will follow my commands"........& the proof is in the pudding.It is truly a matter of the heart & when we receive Christ we are indwelled with His Heart & His Mind and we walk in Spirit & in Truth..............Gods Word is His Timeless Truth

      Jesus is the Way,the Truth & the Life......He is the Word made flesh........the Word is Truth,in not believing Gods Word does one truly have the Mind of Christ? Your question is very difficult to answer because it would depend greatly on when Christ is received & how long does a person continue to think with their own mind......refusal to forsake self........if one believes things that oppose Gods Truth ,receive Christ & die the next day ,I would say they go to Heaven.........the same scenario,only one refuses to renew their mind,ignore what God reveals & chooses to reject Gods Truth & continue in unbelief,well,,,,I am not sure they are Saved because it does not seem Christ abides in them?

     Faith comes by hearing ,hearing the Word of God.....how can faith even increase if one does not believe the Word of God .......Faith in the knowledge of Christ Jesus is indeed the only Way to be reconciled to our Father .........I do not believe that Salvation depends on ones belief in Genesis Creation account but after receiving Christ many things should follow by this re-birth & if nothing happens I would think that should raise a red flag?AS I said,Jerry,,,,its not so simple a question. I don't know if anything I said helps but I hope I can encourage you to continue seeking God in His Word,He will reveal Himself to you & will answer ALL your questions                                  With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Rodney]

I remember when I was in college in a science class. The topic was about evolution and science. My professor ask the class to drop their beliefs in God for a moment in order to understand evolution. The Christians in my class did what he ask. I would not. Why won't I, I told him it was not necessary for me to drop my belief in God in order to consider evolution. I believe in science and some evolution but here is my key belief, all things that have been created in this vast universe are done at the command of God. As we with limited capabilities in understanding the power of God fail to realize that evolution could be a simple command of God. God is the creator of all. Much to the disappointment of the professor that he could not get me to drop my belief in God for a high Grade when he read my paper and whole explanation with God as the creator he still gave me an A. So, can I determine who is going to hell, NO I cannot. I am not the Judge, God is and God knows we are limited and he knows what is in our hearts. I cannot limit God's grace and neither can anyone else. Who is destined for hell? I would be a fool to try to do what only God can do, be the judge of who goes where.

[OldEnglishSheepdog]

 

 

 

However, Jerry, you don't seriously suggest that this is all about speciation do you?

Some seem to think that evidence of speciation should be evidence against the Bible.  Evidence for evolution seems to be a deal-breaker for creationists.  Creationists want to close their eyes, plug their ears and ignore obvious evidence for biological evolution.

 

 

Actually, there's almost no creationist who thinks so.

Most YEC's affirm speciation and/or some level of common descent. Almost no YECs think that there were lions, tigers, tabbies, bobcats, lynx, cougars, leopards, cheetahs, panthers, etc. all on the ark, but that there was some cat with a genome that contained great potential for genetic diversity, and the different breeds that came forth eventually speciated.

 

Natural Selection selects from out of what's available in the genome, and a population specializes. As they do, they lose genetic potential for diversity, which is why all breeds of dogs came from common wolf-like proto dogs, and yet you can't get a pair of bulldogs to give birth to a great dane.

 

The only way to tap back into the genetic potential of the great dane is to breed the bulldogs back with them. So you lose potential for diversity as natural selection and mutation ravages the genome until a population speciates, putting it out of reach of the large genetic pool.

 

But YEC's just get jumpy because of how frequently evolutionists presume everything to be proof of their concept of common descent from a common cellular origin around 3.5 billion years ago.

 

We find the bones of rabbits and horses and we’re told hoorah, evolution confirmed and the final nail has been sunk into the coffin of Biblical Creationism! Even though it’s later disconfirmed as a progression.

 

We find pictures of fetuses that look like they have tails and we’re told hoorah, evolution confirmed and the final nail has been sunk into the coffin of Biblical Creationism! Even though it’s disconfirmed that embryos follow some chain of evolutionary progression from earlier forms in the womb.

 

We find Lucy and we’re told hoorah, evolution confirmed and the final nail has been sunk into the coffin of Biblical Creationism! Even though some hard tissue of an ape trapped in sedimentary deposits is no real problem for YEC.

 

We find IDA and we’re told hoorah, evolution confirmed and the final nail has been sunk into the coffin of Biblical Creationism! evolution confirmed! Even though some hard tissue of a lemur trapped in sedimentary deposits is no real problem for YEC.

 

We find that RNA can do some replicating apart from a cell and we’re told hoorah, evolution confirmed and the final nail has been sunk into the coffin of Biblical Creationism! Even though it doesn’t begin to deal with the complexities of a cell all coming together by chance.

 

We find yeast that bonds and starts to act multicellular and we’re told hoorah, evolution confirmed and the final nail has been sunk into the coffin of Biblical Creationism! Even though there are known strands of yeast that have already been confirmed to have that capacity.

 

It just goes on that this supposed support for evolution is crammed down our throats only to be abandon for the next ‘real thing’ when the last one didn’t work out, and we’re always supposed to believe that this one is the one.

 

So, I actually agree that lots of creationists I know do end up plugging their ears and closing their eyes, but sometimes it seems like it’s the only way to keep the propaganda out.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

However, Jerry, you don't seriously suggest that this is all about speciation do you?

Some seem to think that evidence of speciation should be evidence against the Bible.  Evidence for evolution seems to be a deal-breaker for creationists.  Creationists want to close their eyes, plug their ears and ignore obvious evidence for biological evolution.

 

 

Hi Jerry,

 

My full sympathy is with you on this thread. I am a creationist, yet I believe this particular debate is virtually irrelevant in the greater scheme of things. Yes the creationist viewpoint does have a little fruit sometimes. Some have come to the knowledge of Jesus through creationist ministries.  But generally its through love and preaching about what Jesus did that people come to a saving knowledge of Christ. 

 

My personal advice to you is possibly different to most on this site, I say do not fixate on this creationist/evolutionist debate, carry on in your beliefs yet draw closer to God. God will reveal all in due course, the important thing is to keep drawing closer to Him.

 

14 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

 

 I regard the creationist/evolutionist debate as a disputable matter, its the core issues about Jesus being on earth, dying for our sins, and being resurrected, and our promise of being resurrected that are the important issues. Through relying on Jesus we can have eternal life with God. Let no-one discourage you regarding disputable matters, and both of us can be fully convinced in our own minds and believe so as unto the Lord.

Regarding sacrifice. God does not want to shed innocent blood, but its the only path to reconcile man, and this is why lambs were slain, and this is why God sent his son, the Lamb of God was slain. It was an act of incredible love.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

However, Jerry, you don't seriously suggest that this is all about speciation do you?

Some seem to think that evidence of speciation should be evidence against the Bible.  Evidence for evolution seems to be a deal-breaker for creationists.  Creationists want to close their eyes, plug their ears and ignore obvious evidence for biological evolution.

 

 

ps just because evolution is theoretically possible does not mean that it is the only viable explanation of reality.  Additionally the theory of evolution has to be compared to observable reality. This is off topic to this discussion, but you may find that reality takes the path of devolution more readily than evolution, a slow simplification of life over time to adapt to ecological niches. (favorable disabling of existing genes rather than the generation of new genes with new unique functions)