Definition of Faith

[Bonky]

You've gone from saying "If X isn't falsifiable then it's troublesome" to "Embracing logic when trying to make sense of the world around you is good". I'm not sure how disagreeing with the former can be seen as disagreeing with the latter?

I didn't say "If X isn't falsifiable it's troublesome". In the case of prayer, this is something that is often something that takes up a lot of time and effort in one's life. I see a method for dealing with reality where one could be completely deluded and they would never know. There is always an "out" for when things don't go as expected. I understand that many people still embrace prayer, that's fine, but I'm explaining why I don't embrace it.

 

 

Not at all. I think it's quite possible, but how does the possibility of counting the hits and regarding the missed as God's will, make the entire prayer enterprise "a bit troublesome"?

Because there isn't a mechanism to see if you're on the right track. Call me crazy, but I find that to be "troublesome".

 

How would does one falsify the belief that "things that can't be falsified are troublesome"?

Now you want to engage in word games, I'm not interested.

 

 

I ask my wife to make me a sandwhich. Sometimes she does, sometimes she doesn't, and sometimes she makes one a year later. How do I tell the difference? I don't, that's what relationships are about.

Does this make my requests for sandwiches dubious?

Listen guy, if you want to believe in prayer, have at it. This response is almost too bizarre to do anything with.

[LuftWaffle]

Yes there are different uses for the word faith, the context I used earlier on specifically mentions a "religious" context.

...and even in a religious context the word doesn't mean an absense of evidence, but refers to an act of trust. Are you saying faith is compatible with evidence only if used in a non-religious context? That is simply not true.

 

No that's not what I'm asking. What do you lose if your faith in the Christian view of reality is misplaced? I'm offering that it's very possible you don't lose much of anything.

I'll let St Paul speak for me. 1Co 15:14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

 

It isn't, we can use the word faith in different context. The context I am addressing is one used in religion. I think it's a good bit different than the type of faith that is used for airbags.

You'll find most religious folk will disagree, and I think it's religious folk who are in the best position to know what they mean by faith in a religious context.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Bonky.....

     It seems to me that you may have never prayed ,I doubt you will understand this but I am afraid that even if you did pray,God does not even listen & therefore it would be the same as talking to thin air(I don't know for sure?)......you see,we are all sinners & need Jesus to be reconciled to our Father in Heaven,,,,,,Oh ,He loves you very much & gave His life that you could not only be saved but be reconciled back to God,,,,,,so that YOU could stand before His Throne of Grace & have an intimate ,personal relationship with Him.     Gods Grace is available to you just as it is available to all mankind ,,,,BUT,only through your faith in the knowledge of WHO Jesus Christ IS,,,,,our Living Redeemer

      Bonky,my friend,,,,you are loved & if you ever get to know Jesus you will receive Wisdom & Understanding & LOVE & FORGIVENESS beyond any words I could express...........................I was once a science fanatic,it was my major in studies ,I doubted everything ,,everything cwas "troublesome " for me too................but I was probably a much worse person than you & Jesus Saved me ,loves me,,,,,,,,look for Him,try reading the Word of God................I spent many many years trying to refute His Word,to my surprise I only found evidences,proofs & validation............

                                                                                                                                                              With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Bonky]

...and even in a religious context the word doesn't mean an absense of evidence, but refers to an act of trust. Are you saying faith is compatible with evidence only if used in a non-religious context? That is simply not true.

I was stating that if there is evidence, it's not something [that I know of] that can be shared for another to see or examine. To me this falls into the category of personal revelation, which is in stark contrast to something in the material world that I COULD share with you and vice versa.

 

 

I'll let St Paul speak for me. 1Co 15:14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

Right, I mentioned potentially wasted time if you're wrong.

 

 

You'll find most religious folk will disagree, and I think it's religious folk who are in the best position to know what they mean by faith in a religious context.

Are you suggesting that we are on equal ground when I attempt to offer evidence of fire and you attempt to offer evidence of something in the supernatural? This is all I've been pointing out. There appears to be me that there is a difference in the kind of evidence that we have to work with. I have something I can share....you don't so much.

[Bonky]

Blessings Bonky.....

     It seems to me that you may have never prayed ,I doubt you will understand this but I am afraid that even if you did pray,God does not even listen & therefore it would be the same as talking to thin air(I don't know for sure?)......you see,we are all sinners & need Jesus to be reconciled to our Father in Heaven,,,,,,Oh ,He loves you very much & gave His life that you could not only be saved but be reconciled back to God,,,,,,so that YOU could stand before His Throne of Grace & have an intimate ,personal relationship with Him.     Gods Grace is available to you just as it is available to all mankind ,,,,BUT,only through your faith in the knowledge of WHO Jesus Christ IS,,,,,our Living Redeemer

      Bonky,my friend,,,,you are loved & if you ever get to know Jesus you will receive Wisdom & Understanding & LOVE & FORGIVENESS beyond any words I could express...........................I was once a science fanatic,it was my major in studies ,I doubted everything ,,everything cwas "troublesome " for me too................but I was probably a much worse person than you & Jesus Saved me ,loves me,,,,,,,,look for Him,try reading the Word of God................I spent many many years trying to refute His Word,to my surprise I only found evidences,proofs & validation............

                                                                                                                                                              With love-in Christ,Kwik

I was raised in a Christian home from early on and left the church when I was about 30. This was one of the things I reflected on in my late 20's, I never really had evidence of what I believed...I believed it because it was something I had faith on. I later on decided that my faith or trust was misplaced.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Bonky...

     LOL,sounds a lot like me ,my friend,,,,,,,,,,I have a sneaking suspicion that God is not finished with you ,Bonky.....after all,I don't believe you are here by accident..................your seeking & questioning & looking for Truth is all a good thing and I am really glad you are here,don't give up your quest "friend"                                                                                                                 With love-in Christ,Kwik

[LuftWaffle]

I was stating that if there is evidence, it's not something [that I know of] that can be shared for another to see or examine. To me this falls into the category of personal revelation, which is in stark contrast to something in the material world that I COULD share with you and vice versa.

So are you saying that for something to count as evidence one must be able to see or examine it?

I guess it all depends on what you mean by "examine", but it seems that you're espousing a kind of empiricism. Empiricism is just as self-defeating as verificationism. Are you sure you want to go that route?

 

 

Right, I mentioned potentially wasted time if you're wrong.

Oh, but it's much more than that. Christians have suffered far more than just wasted time for their belief.

 

 

Are you suggesting that we are on equal ground when I attempt to offer evidence of fire and you attempt to offer evidence of something in the supernatural? This is all I've been pointing out. There appears to be me that there is a difference in the kind of evidence that we have to work with. I have something I can share....you don't so much.

Ofcourse!

Nobody would expect to measure the wavelength of a true proposition, or gauge the metric weight of love.

It goes without saying there exists various domains of knowledge and various epistemological devices. Surely you didn't come here to argue that there exists different kinds of evidence for things?

That's not even remotely under contention. My simple contention still remains that faith isn't something that is contrary to evidence (of any kind).

[Bonky]

So are you saying that for something to count as evidence one must be able to see or examine it?

I guess it all depends on what you mean by "examine", but it seems that you're espousing a kind of empiricism. Empiricism is just as self-defeating as verificationism. Are you sure you want to go that route?

No not necessarily examine it in their hands, but there needs to be a good reason to believe the claim. I hold this same skepticism to those who believe in rain dances. Sure it rains sometimes after you complete a rain dance, but then of course there are times when it doesn't. Someone may think it's worthwhile doing a rain dance, I don't see good reason to conclude that the rain dance actually helps to bring about more rain, just like I don't see any reason to believe that prayer is being responded to by a supernatural being.

 

Oh, but it's much more than that. Christians have suffered far more than just wasted time for their belief.

All kinds of people have been persecuted for their beliefs.

 

Ofcourse!

Nobody would expect to measure the wavelength of a true proposition, or gauge the metric weight of love.

It goes without saying there exists various domains of knowledge and various epistemological devices. Surely you didn't come here to argue that there exists different kinds of evidence? That's not even remotely under contention. My simple contention still remains that faith isn't something that is contrary to evidence (of any kind).

Terms like "faith" and what constitutes "good evidence" are probably the source of a lot of discussions and arguments.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Bonky....

     My friend ,I can only share with you what I have experienced in my life......my proofs,other than historical & scientific,but personal

 I was diagnosed with stage 4 ,incurable cancer ,,,,,a huge tumor in my colon and having chemo & radiation it only spread to my tailbone & liver.....when I was diagnosed with such (many medical proofs to substanstiate my claim).......God spoke to my heart & let me know that I would be a Living Testimony that He is still a Miracle working God!I told my doctors to get ready to see a Miracle(of course they thought me crazy)LOL

      Months & months went by ,it spread,,,,,they gave me 6% chance of survival,then one day they took the usual pet scan & there was NO EVIDENCE of cancer......................plenty of remnants from it,scar tissue,damage to the lymphatic system & post radiation effects etc......but even the GI doctor said if he was not there as a witness he would say that the cancerous tumour was surgically removed with the utmost precision.....I never had surgery................hows that for praying for rain-LOL

       Every one of my 4 physicians can only say one thing,'It is a Miracle"                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Bonky]

Blessings Bonky....

     My friend ,I can only share with you what I have experienced in my life......my proofs,other than historical & scientific,but personal

 I was diagnosed with stage 4 ,incurable cancer ,,,,,a huge tumor in my colon and having chemo & radiation it only spread to my tailbone & liver.....when I was diagnosed with such (many medical proofs to substanstiate my claim).......God spoke to my heart & let me know that I would be a Living Testimony that He is still a Miracle working God!I told my doctors to get ready to see a Miracle(of course they thought me crazy)LOL

      Months & months went by ,it spread,,,,,they gave me 6% chance of survival,then one day they took the usual pet scan & there was NO EVIDENCE of cancer......................plenty of remnants from it,scar tissue,damage to the lymphatic system & post radiation effects etc......but even the GI doctor said if he was not there as a witness he would say that the cancerous tumour was surgically removed with the utmost precision.....I never had surgery................hows that for praying for rain-LOL

       Every one of my 4 physicians can only say one thing,'It is a Miracle"                                       With love-in Christ,Kwik

I'm glad you are still with us and the cancer didn't take you. I admit, if something like that happened to me or a loved one I would certainly be moved by it.