Guest LadyC Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 A patient is not contagious until they have a temperature. The doctor was taking his temperature twice a day. And as soon as he had a temperature, he notified the appropriate people. So, he followed all of the standard procedures concientiously. That is not reckless endangerment. sorry, but i have to disagree with you this time. i just looked on the CDC website. according to their protocol, the temperature threshold for reporting is 101.5. that means if he was running a low-grade fever, he didn't have to report. however, he WAS supposed to report if he had any OTHER symptoms, including general muscle soreness and headache. the doctor was feeling poorly before he went out on the town. he knew he was at high risk, he knew he wasn't feeling well, but since his fever wasn't registering at or above the threshold, he chose to go out in public. that IS reckless endangerment, and he WAS in violation of protocol. and now we have a nurse who just returned from working with ebola patients. she registered a temp of 101 at the airport and was put into quarantine. she doesn't like it. she is threatening a lawsuit because she says it's inhumane that she's in isolation without have air conditioning in her quarantine tent. (forget that the daily high has been in the 60s, nights in the 40s.... and also forget that she has been living in a desert during her time in sierra leone.. no a/c is inhumane. yeah.) i believe brantley and writebol had class, and i'm glad they were treated over here. but i'm losing sympathy with these other health care workers employed by doctors without borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 You do have to cite a specific law. You're talking about sending someone to prison to make an example of them. To send someone to prison they must have broken a law. You can't invoke the justice system and then just make up what the crime and punishment are. Reckless endangerment IS against the law and is a prosecutable offense. If you have reason to believe you are infected with a deadly disease that can be caught by other people, you have a responsibility to protect others from your disease. This doctor had a very reasonable indication that his symptoms stemmed from Ebola. He had a duty under the law to not endanger other people and he irresponsibly failed to do so. He had been in an environment where Ebola was rampant, knew the symptoms, and when he started experiencing those symptoms instead of taking the necessary precautions, he chose to go out and engage in contact with other people including having intimate relations with His girlfriend. None of that is in dispute. What he did is against the law and falls under reckless endangerment and given that this is deadly, is criminal. I am not making up any crimes or laws. I am stating what is common knowledge about our justice system. In addition, you said to me regarding George Zimmerman that he is innocent until proven guilty under the law. This is not the same thing. The facts are already known. This not like the Zimmerman case at all. None of the facts are in dispute, like they were in the Zimmerman case. He has already admitted what he has done. So as is usually the case, you're wrong. No surprise there. The difference being George Zimmerman actually killed someone. Seeing as you are a person of principle, I assume you are going to consistently apply the same principles grounded in the Constitution to this doctor. George Zimmerman's action wasn't criminal. Zimmerman had no intention to kill Martin. He and Martin were struggling for his gun. Zimmerman's intent was to frighten Martin and keep his gun from getting into Martin's hands. Zimmerman wasn't on an agenda to kill a black man. Nor was any reckless endangerment or criminal negligence in play on Zimmerman's part. This is a different context. This man knew what he was doing and he didn't want to be quarantined. He took a reckless gamble and now others' lives are in danger because of him. That is simply criminal and the man should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for what he has done. That is the only correct way to look at this. You can never prove reckless endangerment. A patient is not contagious until they have a temperature. The doctor was taking his temperature twice a day. And as soon as he had a temperature, he notified the appropriate people. So, he followed all of the standard procedures concientiously. That is not reckless endangerment. He did not take a reckless gamble but instead was very diligent and careful by taking his temperature twice a day and then notifying the correct people at the very first sign of a temperature. He did not leave his home once he had a temperature, or come into contact with people at all. The problem is that fever wasn't the only symptom he was experiencing. He had other symptoms as well and went out anyway, and should have known given the fact that he is professional and given the fact that he was in an area where Ebola was rampant that the other symptoms were indicative of the fact that he may have contracted ebola. It was reckless endangerment and nothing you say will change that. Like LadyC I have no sympathy for this doctor. He needlessly and recklessly put other people's lives in danger. Zimmerman had no intention of killing Martin. Dr. Spencer has no intention of infecting anyone with ebola. Spencer volunteered to go to Africa to help treat patients with ebola, so his intent was anything but passing on the disease. I didn't say he had an intent to spread ebola. Don't try to refute arguments I didn't raise. He had symptoms of ebola and he was in a position to know that and he went out anyway and put other people at risk. Again, nothing you can say will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted October 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2014 A patient is not contagious until they have a temperature. The doctor was taking his temperature twice a day. And as soon as he had a temperature, he notified the appropriate people. So, he followed all of the standard procedures concientiously. That is not reckless endangerment. sorry, but i have to disagree with you this time. i just looked on the CDC website. according to their protocol, the temperature threshold for reporting is 101.5. that means if he was running a low-grade fever, he didn't have to report. however, he WAS supposed to report if he had any OTHER symptoms, including general muscle soreness and headache. the doctor was feeling poorly before he went out on the town. he knew he was at high risk, he knew he wasn't feeling well, but since his fever wasn't registering at or above the threshold, he chose to go out in public. that IS reckless endangerment, and he WAS in violation of protocol. and now we have a nurse who just returned from working with ebola patients. she registered a temp of 101 at the airport and was put into quarantine. she doesn't like it. she is threatening a lawsuit because she says it's inhumane that she's in isolation without have air conditioning in her quarantine tent. (forget that the daily high has been in the 60s, nights in the 40s.... and also forget that she has been living in a desert during her time in sierra leone.. no a/c is inhumane. yeah.) i believe brantley and writebol had class, and i'm glad they were treated over here. but i'm losing sympathy with these other health care workers employed by doctors without borders. The protocal says a temperature of 101.5. I would assume a health care professional would be cautious with any temperature over 100. October 21: At 7 AM, he reported fatigue and exhaustion. No fever, vomiting, diarrhea. At around 3:00 PM, Dr Spencer visited The Meatball Shop for 40 minutes. The Meatball Shop is located at 64 Greenwich Avenue. Around 4:30 PM, he visited the High Line. Walked on High Line and stopped at the Blue Bottle Coffee stand (10th Ave & W 16th St). At around 5:30 PM, he got off the High Line at 34th Street and took the 1 train to the 145th Street station. October 22: At around 1:00 PM, Dr Spencer went running along Riverside Drive and Westside Highway. Around 2:00 PM, he went to pick up Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) farm share at 143rd St and Amsterdam Avenue (Corbin Hill Farm) and picked up a box which he took to his apartment. At around 5:30 PM, Dr Spencer left for The Gutter bowling alley in Williamsburg, Brooklyn with two friends. For his arrival at Gutter, he took the A train at 145th Street and transferred at 14th Street and took the L train to Bedford Avenue. Around 8:30 PM, Dr Spencer left The Gutter. For his return trip, he used Uber as his means of transportation. October 23: Around 10:15AM, he first reported a fever. At this point, he called Medecins Sans Frontieres and the New York City Health Department. He was immediately taken to Bellevue by FDNY EMS. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2805488/Doctor-treated-Ebola-patients-Africa-rushed-New-York-hospital-103F-fever-nausea.html#ixzz3HMGt0iKo So, he did not have a temperature until October 23. He was taking the precautions, as defined by World Health Organization. He did not go out in public after he had a fever. There was no reckless endangerment as his actions followed the standard precautions as defined by WHO. WHO sets the standards for all countries and has a membership of 193 countries. They have 8000 employees. They are tasked with promoting global health security and battling infectious diseases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 He should have been cautious when he wasn't feeling good. We don't know everything about Ebola and frankly it is really naive to assume that what we are being told by the WHO, the CDC, et al. is the truth about this disease. They don't want to start a panic and they are downplaying how this disease can be caught. They have people right now who were in contact with that doctor under quarantine, allegedly they had contact with him before he was supposed to be contagious. Everyone who is even in the proximity of someone who has this disease is being called on to be tested. They say one thing, but do another. They claim you can't contract this by casual contact but they are treating the disease as if it can be caught through casual contact. So you can keep on quoting the WHO as if they are some infallible source if you want to, but frankly it doesn't really carry any weight given how the disease is actually be handled. Every health worker that comes back from the infected countries needs to be isolated and tested when they get back before they are let out into public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 he had no fever. what does that really mean? we know he reported no fever, but he wasn't required to report a fever under 101.5. fatigue is almost always accompanied by body aches and low-grade fever... a fever he would not have reported because he wasn't obligated to. and yet we should all know from amber vinson that even a temperature as low as 99 (which is what she initially reported) can be an indicator of the onset of full blown ebola. so i stand by what i've said. this doctor was reckless, and he knew better. he should have erred on the side of caution. he KNOWS first hand that patients can have ebola with fevers less than the 101.5 that is set forth by the cdc, because he was worked on the ground with the virus. he had no right to go out on the town, and if anyone he came in contact with gets it, i hope he is prosecuted to the fullest extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted October 27, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,800 Content Per Day: 6.17 Reputation: 11,247 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Keep in mind too that some people have lower than normal baseline temps. I am one of them. My normal temperature is 97.4, as evidenced by decades of having my temp taken. So for some people having a low grade temperature could be a false measurement. They could be sicker than their temp indicates. As LadyC pointed out, not everyone who has ebola has had a high fever. Once that doc felt sluggish he should have stopped going out in public. He knew he was at high risk of the disease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 jade, me too! my baseline temp is also 97.4, and has always been. if my temp gets up to the national average (98.6) you'll find me in bed chilled to the bone and likely ignoring advice to stay uncovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I think it is should be pointed out that they are not required to report their fever until it is 101.5 but that doesn't mean they aren't already contagious prior to a temp of 101.5. So he could have easily infected people before he finally felt bad enough to begin reporting his fever We need to err on the side of caution even if it seems like an over reaction. This is about saving lives and preventing a pandemic and that needs to take precedence. Doctors and soldiers and anyone coming from W Africa (since the idiots our administration won't do travel bans from W Africa) need to quarantined and tested before being allowed back on US soil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted October 27, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,800 Content Per Day: 6.17 Reputation: 11,247 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 jade, me too! my baseline temp is also 97.4, and has always been. if my temp gets up to the national average (98.6) you'll find me in bed chilled to the bone and likely ignoring advice to stay uncovered. Yep 99 degrees for me and Im quite ill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted October 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted October 27, 2014 A patient is not contagious until they have a temperature. The doctor was taking his temperature twice a day. And as soon as he had a temperature, he notified the appropriate people. So, he followed all of the standard procedures concientiously. That is not reckless endangerment. sorry, but i have to disagree with you this time. i just looked on the CDC website. according to their protocol, the temperature threshold for reporting is 101.5. that means if he was running a low-grade fever, he didn't have to report. however, he WAS supposed to report if he had any OTHER symptoms, including general muscle soreness and headache. the doctor was feeling poorly before he went out on the town. he knew he was at high risk, he knew he wasn't feeling well, but since his fever wasn't registering at or above the threshold, he chose to go out in public. that IS reckless endangerment, and he WAS in violation of protocol. and now we have a nurse who just returned from working with ebola patients. she registered a temp of 101 at the airport and was put into quarantine. she doesn't like it. she is threatening a lawsuit because she says it's inhumane that she's in isolation without have air conditioning in her quarantine tent. (forget that the daily high has been in the 60s, nights in the 40s.... and also forget that she has been living in a desert during her time in sierra leone.. no a/c is inhumane. yeah.) i believe brantley and writebol had class, and i'm glad they were treated over here. but i'm losing sympathy with these other health care workers employed by doctors without borders. she has been living in a desert during her time in sierra leone Small correction,Sierra Leone has a tropical climate and while it has some savanna, most of it is wet coastal lowlands.. The AC she would have needed would have been for humidity.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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