Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

S.T. Ranger · December 23, 2014

Not new flesh bodies, the same bodies bodily resurrected, not glorified. If they did receive glorified bodies, and this of course would have had to have been after Christ's own resurrection, then they could not possibly die again. The glorified body is suited to eternal existence.

The only problem with this is that...you have no Biblical basis on which to make this statement. IT falls under a heading of speculation and cannot be called Biblical truth.

Salty: they were resurrected as the Scripture states. The Scripture does not tell us what 'kind' of bodies they were in when they came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem. So your idea they had renewed flesh bodies is just as much speculation. Mine simply aligns with more Scripture evidence of what the concept of resurrection is, even as per the early Eccl.12:5-7 example and the 2 Cor.5 example by Paul of what would happen if our earthly tabernacle were "dissolved".

When Paul speaks of "sleep" he is referring to death, which has nothing to do with the spirit.

We know that a man's spirit lives on after death, even those of unbelievers, who will also be resurrected in bodies suited for an eternal existence.

Open that can of worms and chew on it.

God bless.

Salty: not quite, per 1 Thess.5 when he speaks of sleep it's about being spiritually blinded, deceived, vs. spiritually sober, awake in Christ.

In 1 Thess.4 he uses the 'asleep' idea to point to those in Christ that have died, their spirits still being alive, which he also did that in the 1 Cor.15 chapter also about the idea of the raising of the dead. You're actually pointing closer to men's traditions about 'soul sleep' with what you've said.

Just as a way to quickly address this in one lump sum, it seems that in your posting you are claiming that resurrections such as Lazarus and the saints which arose at the Lord's Crucifixion had to be raised in spiritual bodies, based on this...

Hebrews 9:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

...am I clear about that?

So I thought I would back us up a little to se if you also believe the resurrection seen here...

1 Kings 17:17-22King James Version (KJV)

17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.

18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?

19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed.

20 And he cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

The question I would pose to you is this: do you see this child as being glorified when he is resurrected here, according to the resurrection of the body which Paul describes in the New Testament?

God bless.

Marilyn C · December 23, 2014

Hi S.T.Ranger,

Now I have a few questions & comments for you in regard to your post #14.

1. The Body of Christ is the New Man - however you said ` the church will have her home....` thus female. Where is the doctrine for this?

`In a nutshell, my basic view is that the Church will have her home in Heaven permanently with the Lord,...`

2. I had just spoken about the `sheep,` & you said -

`I wouldn't argue with that, but just mention that it is just as likely, due to the sealing of the 144,000, that it may be Jews in that day leading the charge. That is just the impression I get. I think I recall somewhere Jews escorted, and you may be familiar with that and see that as a support. But again, not going to argue that. It's not an unreasonable view. I would have to do a bit of review to refresh my memory, though.`

I believe the 144,000 were sealed but not exempt from death - Rev. 14: 1. They have a special purpose in God.

3. With regard to the Old Testament saints & Matt.8: 11.

I said `However I will ask you, Do you believe that the Body of Christ will be on earth in the Millennium? And if you do - scriptures & God`s Purposes for that, please.`

You said `Yes and no. Paul teaches that when we are Raptured we are henceforth from then on with the Lord. I believe we will minister, as glorified saints, much as the Angels minister among us today. I think we will reside in New Jerusalem which our Lord has gone before us to prepare, and that we will possibly "commute," lol.

As far as residing on the earth, I am not really convinced of that, nor do I think the Lord must be confined to Jerusalem to fulfill prophecy concerning His rule at that time. Will He be there, probably, but I do not think He is confined there.

We are told by Christ...

Matthew 8:11 King James Version (KJV)

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Which makes me lean very heavily in the belief that at least some Old Testament Saints will dwell there, which, as in the case of Abraham, is actually fitting, since it will be the culmination, physically, of the promises of God to and through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Now what I have not yet made a dogmatic conclusion on is this: will the Patriarchs and other Old Testament saints be glorified at this point? I lean heavily to the belief they will be, but, again, the Rapture is specific to the Dead and living IN Christ, so I have refrained from a dogmatic statement as of yet. It may be they are raised physically, but that too brings a bit of a dilemma as far as I am concerned, thus I lean towards them being glorified and being considered as IN Christ through the grace of God.`

Matt. 8: 11 Remember the Lord is talking to the Jews concerning their inheritance. (re: `...many shall come from the east & west, & shall sit down with Abraham, & Isaac, & Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.` Gentiles were included eg. Rahab, Ruth & others. Also `the kings of the earth bring their glory & honour into it.` (Rev.. 21: 24 - The New Jerusalem)

4. The Old Testament saints `looked for.....` (Heb. 11: 10) But what inheritance has the Body of Christ been promised?

Marilyn.

Edited December 24, 2014 by Marilyn C

Salty · December 23, 2014

False argument: I never said the raising of Lazarus was the resurrection, but a resurrection. One among a number of resurrections which take place before Christ's Resurrection. But Christ is the First to be raised in a glorified body. Then the Rapture. Then the Two Witnesses. Then the Tribulation Martyrs.

Salty: still not a valid point to support your rapture theory, even if you want to call Jesus' raising of Lazarus a resurrection. And your last statement has their event timing out of order. The true order is the tribulation time with God's two witnesses along with the Church here on earth with some of them being martyred, and then Jesus' only coming (parousia) with the harpazo event.

That is not in question. How many times do I have to say your proof-texts apply to Christ's Return?
What your proof-texts are lacking is tying the Rapture to His physical Return.

Salty: you are only denying those Scriptures which show the coming of our Lord Jesus along with the the gathering of His saints, like I showed with the Matt.24, Mark 13 especially, Rev.16:15, and 1 Thess.5 also as evidence when studied in comparison. Your denial of their context is only so you can keep your pre-trib theory.
1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The Day of the Lord will not overtake us as a thief. That is clear. And Paul goes on to say why...
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Again, Paul makes it clear that for the Church...being alive or dead makes no difference in regards to the Day of the Lord. What he is saying is that the Day of the Lord is sudden, unexpected wrath that comes upon the children of darkness.

Salty: one must take what Paul said there in full context, which you left part of that out. Here's what you left out:

1 Thess.5

⁴But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

⁷For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

⁸But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Salty: Paul was admonishing them to be watching and sober (spiritually), nor alseep (spiritually) for that time leading up to the day of the Lord. It is by being "sober" and not asleep in the night how the "day of the Lord" will not take His by surprise. Instead what you've done is to insert a pre-trib rapture there instead. Furthermore, that "wrath" Paul speaks of is God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on the "day of the Lord" timing. It is not... about the "great tribulation" timing which occurs prior to God's cup of wrath. That is the specific day of wrath Paul is speaking of that we are not appointed to.

In 2 Thess.2, Paul makes it clear about the coming of Christ and the gathering being linked to the day of the Lord:

2 Thess.2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

²That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Salty: that word "Christ" in verse 2 is actually the Greek word for 'lord' (kurios), Paul is referring to the "day of the Lord" he spoke of in the 1 Thess.5 chapter from the OT prophets. Paul made no distinction there about that event. He taught the day of Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him as the same event. Paul then continues in that 2 Thess.2 chapter to teach that the great falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist must both... occur first, prior to Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. That Scripture timing is very, very clear on the timing, since Paul was clearing up a misconception some there had from false ones among them (per 2 Thess.2:3).

Now let's back up to ch.4 and see this in the context of the previous teaching:

Salty: let's not back up, because the 1 Thess.4 Scripture gives no specific time markers, but only the event details of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church both from Heaven and from the earth. The 1 Thess.5 chapter is where Paul gave time markers linked to the "day of the Lord", which he drew from the OT prophets. That is also where he got the idea of that "Peace and safety" and "sudden destruction" upon the wicked.

We back up again:
1 Thessalonians 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
Now here we see Paul distinguish between tribulation which he has already told them they would go through, and the tribulation associated with the Day of the Lord.

Salty: your argument there is moot, because in 1 Thess.3 Paul indeed is speaking of the tribulations they at that time were having, as he was confirming their Faith for that time.

There is no link there to the "great tribulation" event our Lord Jesus forewarned of, nor the "day of the Lord" events Paul covered later, but only the idea of their being presented to Christ blameless on the day of His coming (1 Thess.3:12-13).

Now let's see if we can make this tribulation fit what he says in ch.5:
1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

(Insert missing verses 5-8 here, instead of taking away from God's Holy Writ)
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Two entirely different issues: the first is tribulation which they should already know they are going to go through, and the second the wrath of God poured out on the children of darkness.
The first they will go through...the second they will not. Chapter Four tells them why they will not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord.

Salty: we are agreed that those in Christ are not appointed to God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked, but the issue you're having is your doctrine from men tries to separate the day of Christ's coming to gather His saints apart from that same day that God pours His wrath out upon the wicked. All the pre-trib rapture theory does is assume that means physical escape to not suffer that wrath on the "day of the Lord", but that's not what Paul said there at all. Instead, he admonished them to remain sober and watching leading up to that day of the Lord, and even to not fall into that "Peace and safety" mindset he showed the deceived will be saying.

More about that "Peace and safety" those who sleep in the night will be saying in that time:

in Matt.24 our Lord Jesus pointed to the tribulation with that peace and safety timing (Matt.24:6). It was first given in the Book of Daniel about the false one who will come and destroy using peace. That is the event Paul is admonishing the brethren to remain sober through, to not fall asleep (spiritually) like those deceived who will be saying that "Peace and safety". Paul even uses that idea of sleep like one drunken in the night from the OT prophets regarding the deceptions of the end time (see Isaiah and Jeremiah).

This is where Paul was pulling from also about that "sudden destruction" event on the "day of the Lord" with those deceived saying that, "Peace and safety". But how the pre-trib doctrinists just whisk past those OT Scripture associations there that Paul makes from the prophets about the end leading up to Christ's return.

The Lord tells why overcomers will not go through that time here...
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Salty: I've already covered how Christ's Message to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia is about their being kept from temptation by the coming Antichrist, and will not bow in worship to him, but instead will wait on Christ's coming to gather them at the end of the tribulation. There is no parousia or harpazo ("caught up") event given in that Message, only how He promised they will not be deceived.

missmuffet · December 23, 2014

I plan to single handedly populate the kingdom

What is the color of the sky in your planet?

Salty · December 23, 2014

I never denied living on the earth after a resurrection. I gave the example of Lazarus to distinguish between bodily resurrection and the redemption of the body we call glorification, the first of which is the Resurrection of Christ.
And again, The quote from Zechariah does not mention resurrection. You are imposing something into the text which is simply not there. So be more careful about charging others with fallacy.

Furthermore, since you endorse Darby's 'Pre-trib secret Rapture' theory per your post on another thread, accepting that theory means accepting Darby's dream of Christ gathering His saints to live in Heaven during the tribulation, and then returning after the tribulation, an idea which is not written in God's Word. Jesus returns one time, on the Day of The Lord. That's the timing Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Thess.2, which also agrees with the timing given at the beginning of Zech.14.

Again, this is not Darby's invention, simply a teaching directly from the First Century, revealed by Paul.

Salty: it is an invention by Darby, because none in the early Church ever... taught Christ comes to gather His saints PRIOR to the "great tribulation". Yet that is exactly the pre-trib teaching by Darby in 1830's Britain, and the first time any Church held to that kind of pre-trib idea, even as you have already admitted in other posts here.

So let's keep the early Church father's belief of a rapture after the tribulation vs. Darby's later invention of a rapture prior to the tribulation straight, shall we?

Your mistake is to have Christ returning twice. When He returns, He will return just as He went, as described in Zechariah 14.
As already mentioned...no mention of resurrection in either of the two posts you have offered.

Salty: and as I mentioned about that in Zech.14 with Christ returning will all His saints there to Jerusalem on earth how He ascended, that is... about the time of the resurrection Paul spoke of in 1 Thess..4 and 1 Cor.15. One cannot exclude the resurrection in that because that Zech.14 coming with all His saints is dependent upon the 1 Thess.4 harpazo event.

Even Enoch of the OT, the seventh from Adam, preaching that timing of Christ coming with His saints on the "day of the Lord" event...

Jude 1

¹⁴And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,

¹⁵To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Did you catch that timing there, "To execute judgment upon all..."? That is about the "day of the Lord" timing, not the tribulation timing when the Antichrist and wicked are still reigning on earth. That is a direct link to the timing Jesus gave in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 also, the day of His coming which includes the time of His gathering of His saints.

1 Corinthians 15:48-52
King James Version (KJV)
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
As mentioned repeatedly, here we have what Paul calls a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth. What that means is that the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament...cannot be what Paul has in view.

Salty: Oh, but a general resurrection is also what Paul is covering there also, for have not the wicked also borne that "image of the earthy"? They also will bear that "image of the heavenly", because they too will be changed to the "spiritual body" on that day of Christ's coming to gather His Church.

1 Cor.15

²²For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

One must pay close attention to what Paul said there, because even the wicked all die too because of Adam's fall. But Paul was particuarly covering what will occur to those in Christ in that 1 Cor.15 chapter, even though he knew those that go into the "resurrection of damnation" will also be changed on that day (as per John 5:28-29 and Isaiah 25).

Most were aware of the resurrection (regardless of whether they believed it or not, but...not one person knew about this event, which unlike the Second Coming events...occur in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye.
The events of the Second coming take place over a period of time. Based on Daniel, the events that occur while the Kingdom is established have a 75 day window:
Daniel 12:6-12
King James Version (KJV)
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
"A time, times, and half a time," according to the Jewish calendar, is 1260 days.
We then have 1290 days, which is a thirty day difference.
We then are given 1335 days which is a 75 day difference.
This time begins at the time of the abomination which makes desolate, that starts the countdown. The extended days correlate to the events described in regards to the Lord's Return (v.11).
But the Rapture takes place immediately. In a moment, the twinkling of an eye. That there is no resurrection mentioned in connection with the Lord's description of events (apart from those who die during the Tribulation), coupled with the fact that we know the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which deals with both believers and unbelievers, will not take place in a moment, and adding the fact that the resurrection of the dead described just prior to this passage...
Daniel 12
King James Version (KJV)
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
...the obvious conclusion to draw is that two events must be in view.

Salty: the obvious error you make in all that is by moving the harpazo event apart from the day of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord". In Daniel 12, that 45 and 75 days is for after... Christ's second coming and the gathering to Him, and into the Millennial timing.

Per Daniel, and the "abomination of desolation" event association Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse, the tribulation occurs within the last 1260 days period, which is also given as a time, times, and a half (or 3.5 years). The 1290 and 1335 days are thus after... Christ has come and ended the 1260 days.

[-----1260 days----------][----------------day of the Lord---------------][--1290------][----1335------]

[-------tribulation---------][---Christ's coming and the gathering---][-cleansing-][--blessing---]

The emphasis refers to the Tribulation, as seen also here:
Matthew 24:15-21
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Daniel 12 refers to the Tribulation, so Paul cannot be talking about the resurrection spoken of in vv.1-2. It would not be a mystery if this is what Paul has in mind, because this was common knowledge. In v.1 it should be noted that Michael, the great prince of Israel will stand up and Israel will be delivered. We do not have to impose the resurrection of the dead (unjust) at the time of deliverance, and we don't because Revelation 20 makes it clear there is a thousand year period between the return of Christ and the raising of those that will be consigned to Hell (the Lake of Fire) for eternity:

Salty: so your basis for inserting a pre-trib rapture is because of the 'mystery' Paul spoke of? That's laughable, because it was the detail of HOW those in Christ would be gathered per 1 Cor.15 that he is calling a 'mystery'; that none of the OT saints knew about nor understood, specifically because that detail was not yet... given to the OT saints.

Concerning the timing when Michael shall 'stand up' per Dan.12, that is about the great tribulation timing when the dragon is cast down to the earth by that war in Rev.12:7 forward. It is that old serpent being cast down to the earth with his angels in that time which will begin the "great tribulation" event our Lord Jesus proclaimed. But the next phrase separated by a colon after that time of trouble, is the time of Christ's coming and the resurrection:

Dan.12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Notice the colon separates the two subjects there. Got to rightly divide, because our Lord Jesus in Matt.24 revealed that time of trouble upon us for the tribulation time, in association with the "abomination of desolation" event, and then after the tribulation declared His coming and gathering of His saints.

Revelation 20:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
This is the only resurrection associated with the return of Christ, and it is specific to those who have not "worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands." In other words...only tribulation Martyrs can be dogmatically stated to being glorified when Christ returns and establishes the Millennial Kingdom. We could debate whether they are raised in glorified form, because in the Kingdom, a bodily resurrection (as opposed to glorification) can just as equally result in a thousand year life due to the fact that in the Kingdom life-spans will be greatly increased, restored to the life-spans we see in men closer to creation (Adam, Methuselah, et cetera).

Salty: yes, many get confused about that idea of the dead not living again until the thousand years is over, which is not about any idea that the wicked are not resurrected to go through Christ's thousand years reign, especially since Rev.20 reveals the spiritually dead on earth dwelling outside the "camp of the saints" on earth, and that DURING Christ's thousand years reign with His elect.

Problem is, in John 5:28-29 our Lord Jesus declared the wicked of the "resurrection of damnation" manifesting on the same day of His coming that the Just of the "resurrection of life" do.

Many misunderstand the meaning of that Rev.20:5 passage because of thinking with their fleshy mind, like you're doing. When Jesus returns to gather us, on the Day of The Lord, that will begin His thousand years reign on earth with His saints. And on that Day, man's works are burned off the earth by God's consuming fire, ending this flesh world time. Thus Rev.20 is after... that consuming fire event on the earth, and the change to the "spiritual body" Paul preached, including upon the nations per Isaiah 25 where he was pulling that death swallowed up in victory idea.

Isaiah 25

⁵Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.

⁶And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

⁷And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

⁸He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

⁹And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

That... is where Apostle Paul was pulling from when teaching about the resurrection in 1 Cor.15, as he was actually covering BOTH... resurrection types, the "resurrection of life" (Christ's sheep) and the "resurrection of damnation" (goats).

That face of the covering, and vail spread over all nations, is about the limitations of this flesh world time being... removed, with all being in a resurrection type body, both the just and the unjust, and the heavenly revealed to all.

In Isaiah, per the Hebrew, God uses metaphors for the wicked in that being like a starving man who dreams of a feast only to wake up suddenly and find he is still starving. He also used a metaphor in Isaiah to show this event on the day of The Lord being like turning a bottle upside side making the sound of its contents being poured out. That is the event and timing Peter was teaching us in 2 Pet.3:10 about the elements of man's works being burned off the earth on that day. It is the "plague" idea upon the wicked per the Zechariah 14 example, with the wicked who come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world.

Many miss that event written in God's Word, even as you have. That wrath the wicked will experience on that day will not affect those in Christ Jesus, and we do not have to leave this earth to not be subject to that, because it ain't about man's nuclear weapons in all-out war. It's about God's consuming fire, because He is... a consuming fire.

Thus the nations on earth per Rev.20 represent those of the "resurrection of damnation", standing in judgment throughout Christ's thousand years reign with His elect. It is for them that Christ's "rod of iron" will be upon during that thousand years. And as written also in Isaiah, those that erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who murmured will learn doctrine (Isaiah 29).

In that Millennial time, then what does it mean 'to live'? It means belonging to Christ Jesus, and never being subject to the "second death". The reason why only... the "second death" is mentioned in Rev.20 is because that KIND of death will then be the ONLY... type of death remaining, the casting of one's spirit with soul into the later "lake of fire" with the wicked, but after God's Great White Throne Judgment. Thusly, no more flesh death in that time, this world with man in a flesh body having passed away at Christ's coming on the Day of The Lord.

Why would there be a need for God's Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the thousand years??? It's because some souls will... be converted to Christ Jesus during His thousand years reign, those who will have their first... opportunity to hear and believe The Gospel. Like Peter said, our Heavenly Father is longsuffering, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Pet.3). And then those must... be tested by Satan being loosed one final time at the end of the thousand years. This... is the implied 'second resurrection' unto Life with Christ of some of the "dead" of Rev.20:5.

Isaiah writes...
Isaiah 65:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Many make the mistake of thinking that is about flesh in that time, when that is a metaphor for the condition of one's soul during Christ's future thousand years reign. After Christ's coming, this flesh earth age of today will have ended. All will be in the resurrection body type with only the "second death" remaining, which is the casting into the lake of fire after Christ's thousand years reign.

So while I would not be overly dogmatic concerning the Tribulation Martyrs being glorified, I lean heavily towards the fact that they are based on the description.
But the point still remains: you need to provide Scripture that shows the Rapture at the Return of Christ, rather than what Scripture consistently teaches which is that when Christ Returns...the living among believers (Sheep, Wheat) will enter into the Kingdom physically (not glorified), and the living among unbelievers (Goats, Tares, Chaff, Evil Trees)...will be destroyed (not resurrected into bodies suited for Hell, which the dead (unjust) will not be raised and cast into until one thousand years after the Lord's Second Coming.

Salty: I have provided you with the Scripture evidence of the time of Christ's coming with the time of His gathering of His saints. Yet you completely deny the Scripture as... written (Matt.24:29-31 with Mark 13:24-27 together in comparison to the harpazo event of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15, and... Isaiah 25).

Salty · December 23, 2014

Look, if you can't follow the conversation, great, I'll try to work with that. But let me remind you that the issue centered around the Rapture, which Paul, in the First Century, taught was a resurrection which involved the changing of the body of those that are still living...and have never died.

Salty: I'm follow what you've surmised here perfectly, and showed Scripture evidence to prove you wrong. But you keep trying to mis-directs to idle points away the resurrection happening on the day of Christ's return.

The fact that you are still not addressing what has been presented indicates that you are not following, because you keep reiterating arguments already dealt with. How do you ever expect to progress in this discussion if you keep trying to use the same arguments?
Address the Scripture provided, and show why my "surmising's" are in error, and quit being slothful in your responses...post the relevant Scripture and comment as to how it is relevant to your defense of your position.

Salty: Oh, I think you well... know I have addressed everything you have provided to try and back up your belief on the pre-trib rapture theory. Fact is, you have failed to address many of the Scriptures I have provided as evidence that opposes your theory, and as usual with many on man's Pre-trib secret Rapture theory, they don't intend to address Scripture that goes directly against their theory, like what Jesus said in Matt.24:29-31 with Mark 13:24-27 linked with 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 specifically. In reality, not being able to do that is like lying to one's self, not to speak of it disregarding what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles actually taught about these events.

Per what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, he covered BOTH the idea of the resurrection of the dead at Christ's coming, and... those still alive on earth being changed to the "spiritual body" at Christ's coming. That also is what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4, and also what Jesus taught in Matt.24:29-31 with Mark 13:24-27.

If "those alive on the earth" are changed as Paul describes here...then you have the Millennial Kingdom being populated by glorified saints.
Can't you understand the dilemma that raises? That means there are no physical believers to repopulate and supply those that rebel against God, who are destroyed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Salty: the dilema is what your pre-trib rapture theory has created by not grasping the differences between this present world, and the end of the things of this world when Jesus returns to gather His saints. Even with your "physical believers" idea you show you've failed to grasp the events of the world to come, and with what kind of body it comes with.

Yet our Lord Jesus and His Apostles told you, even with the "resurrection of life" vs. those of the "resurrection of damnation" on the day of His return per John 5:28-29, and the nations dwelling outside the holy city on earth per Rev.20 and Rev.22:14-15 (see what Jesus taught about the "outer darkness" in The Gospels). Sadly I have to say, that your doctrine has made you 'drunken in the night' and away from understanding the events soon to come upon us as written in God's Word.

And nowhere in the Gospels, when His Return is in view, do we see a resurrection. We see saints left, and unbelievers taken. We know how they are taken based upon the Lord's words here:
Luke 17:22-25
King James Version (KJV)
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Salty: before you leave that point above in Luke 17:22-25, you should have noticed that is about His warning to not fall away to the coming pseudo-Christ of Matt.24:23-26, i.e., the false one in 2 Thess.2:4 Apostle Paul also warned us about, and also the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward which Jesus through Apostle John warned us about for the end.

As with His Olivet Discourse, Jesus remarked how HIS coming will be easily seen, in contrast to the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem that only others must proclaim has come. Now we may get to your 'taken' idea...

He goes on to say...
Luke 17:30-37
King James Version (KJV)
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
This is what happens in that day, Salty: unbelievers are destroyed (physically), and believers are left alive...to enter into the Kingdom. That is where the population that rebels against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom come from.

Salty: boy, have you got the timing of that 'taken' event all wrong! Indeed, those first one 'taken' are taken in by the coming pseudo-Christ's false camp. Jesus gave the parallel to that in Matt.24:28 which has the Greek word for 'carcase' (dead body) there instead.

Christ's disciples there asked Him exactly where... those first ones taken would be taken to? To wheresoever the eagles are gathering where the dead carcase is, was His answer. That is about the spiritually dead DURING the tribulation time gathering to the wrong Christ (i.e., the pseudochristos of Matt.24:23-26). But don't you find it strange that the Pre-trib Rapture school has traditionally taught that first one taken means Christ's saints being raptured out prior to the tribulation??

So who's really... doing all the dancing here? Certainly not me.

That is what is commonly known as glorification, and is not speaking of only a bodily resurrection from the dead. We will be glorified which will make our bodies suited to an eternal existence. When Lazarus died and was bodily resurrected, he did not go to Heaven, but remained on the earth. He was not glorified, and I can tell you why we know that:

Salty: commonly known to who, the Pre-trib secret Rapture school? You still insist on bringing up the subject of Lazarus when Jesus raised Lazarus' flesh only as a teaching example of the resurrection for His disciples and those might believe on Him in that time of His first coming; it was not the actual resurrection, so continually trying to use that as an example for what you propose for the end of this world does not match; there is no resurrection of the flesh, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15.

No-one said it was the "actual resurrection."
That's the point you are missing: Lazarus was only bodily raised, he was not glorified. His resurrection can be distinguished from the resurrection of the saints that follow Christ's resurrection.
And you are in error on this point as well:
there is no resurrection of the flesh, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15.
Glorification is in fact a resurrection of the flesh. That you would say this reveals quite a bit.

Salty: not the glory of the world to come with the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Cor.15, even as our Lord Jesus showed us in John 3 the difference between flesh and spirit. One of the problems you appear to have on that is not grasping how those are two distinct and separate operations. Like Paul said in 1 Cor.15:45 also, the first Adam was made a living soul (pointing to God breathing Adam's soul into flesh), but the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

But to you, flesh is supreme, which is of course against the written Scripture evidence about the resurrection type body that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us. Even with one believing on Christ today becoming a "new creature" unto Christ according to Paul, is about the renewing of one's spirit inside... their flesh body by The Holy Spirit. That is how our flesh body may be healed and made whole during this present world, but it does not mean our flesh is part of that Salvation glory to come of a body of "incorruption" that Paul taught.

The glorified body is a spiritual body, and if you would read the rest of 1 Corinthians you would see how Paul clearly defines the difference. The body the Lord was raised in was the same body He died in, so here are a couple of verses for you to consider:
John 20:25-28
King James Version (KJV)
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Salty: we also have these Scriptures about the kind of body our Lord Jesus was transfigured to not being like the flesh bodies we have today, nor the type He had prior to His crucifixion...

John 20

¹⁹Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

²⁰And when He had so said, He shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Can your flesh body do that, suddenly appear out of nowhere in a closed off room? No, of course not. We must enter in through the door as they had to.

Luke 24

³⁰And it came to pass, as He sat at meat with them, He took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.

³¹And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight.

Again, can a flesh body like we have do that vanishing? No, of course not. Those acts our Lord Jesus did especially for His disciples sake, so they would believe He indeed had risen from the dead. Yet His flesh body was transfigured to the resurrection type body, which looks like flesh, feels like flesh, can eat man's food and live upon the earth. Yet it is not a flesh like today's.

Per the Genesis 18 example, our Lord was even able to appear on earth to Abraham and eat what Abraham prepared for Him and the two angels that appeared with Him. And that was before our Lord Jesus was born in the flesh through Mary's womb! Thus the body of spirit is not a ghost, nor a flesh body like we have that gets old and dies. It is able to walk and live upon this earth, even as shown in Hebrews 13.

Salty · December 24, 2014

1 Corinthians 15:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Colossians 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Salty: well, now you've sled off the subject we began speaking of, changing directions. What about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus after His resurrection went and preached to per 1 Pet.3 & 4?

First, this is what you need to understand about the resurrection of the Church, which takes place at the Rapture. Because you mistake the Rapture for a/the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament, you are not understanding the distinction of the mystery.
And this is warned against here:
Hebrews 6:1-2
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
The mystery revealed by Paul would not be a mystery if the first principles of resurrection, which were foundational, are what Paul is teaching in regards to the resurrection the Church receives at the Rapture.

Salty: I am not leaving ANY... of the doctrines of foundational Christianity given by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles, including Apostle Paul, instead I am proclaiming... them per God's Holy Writ.

What you apparently don't understand is that God through His OT saints gave them to write of many things which were ONLY first understood... once Christ came to die on the cross. As I've said before to you, this is why... those like Paul kept going back into the Old Testament Scripture to point out those things being fulfilled. He left it up to us to go back in the Old Testament Scripture... to confirm and also... learn more... of the details at times.

For example, in Romans 9 Paul pulls from the Book of Hosea when preaching to Gentile Romans and scattered Israelites among the Romans. Yet the Hosea prophecies he quoted were specifically given about the ten tribes of Israel under Ephraim, and not to Gentiles. The Gentile believers becoming joined with believing Israel and becoming Ami (My people) to God is the concept Paul was teaching there, with Salvation going to both believing Israel and believing Gentiles as 'one' body in Christ Jesus. And per our discussion about the resurrection, Isaiah 25 is one of the OT Scriptures where Paul was pulling from about death being swallowed up in victory, with Isaiah 25 giving us a bit more info of 'how' the nations are also involved in that event on the day of Christ's return.

Likewise with the John 14 example of the "mansions" (abodes) our Lord Jesus mentioned, which the greater detail of those abodes are written within the Ezekiel temple layout in Ezekiel 40 forward.

This is why Paul and Peter said this about the OT Scripture for Christ's Church...

1 Cor.10

⁶Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

2 Pet.3

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

²That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Not only are we to be mindfull of what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught, but also of what God gave through His OT prophets. In many New Testament cases of quoting from the OT prophets, the greater details are often given in those Old Testament Scriptures, meaning we are to go back and pick that up and understand it along with what Christ and His Apostles taught us.

Thusly, there is no need to blow the idea of the 'mystery' that Paul spoke completely out of proportion, since now even the once not understood details even in the Old Testament Scriptures have been opened to our understanding in Christ Jesus.

Yet many who rely only on Paul's Epistles seem to want to disregard everything else written in God's Word. I won't do that, nor will my Heavenly Father and His Son by The Holy Spirit allow me... to do that disregarding.

Secondly...

What about the "spirits in prison" that Jesus after His resurrection went and preached to per 1 Pet.3 & 4?

...what about them.
The thing to consider in regards to them is that this declarative preaching occurred...while Christ was physically still in the tomb.
Understand?
That means that this takes place before Christ is risen, and because Christ is the firstborn from the dead, we cannot have these He preached to resurrected before Himself.

Salty: once again, you reveal the very lacking I spoke of in my previous paragraphs, a lacking of study in the OT prophets that we also have been commanded to do...

Isaiah 42

⁶I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

⁷To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

1 Pet.3

¹⁸For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

¹⁹By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

²⁰Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

1 Pet.4

⁵Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

⁶For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Without the Isaiah 42:6-7 prophecy, that 1 Pet.3 event of our Lord Jesus at His resurrection going to preach The Gospel to those "spirits in prison" would not be as well understood. Likewise with leaving off why He did that per the 1 Pet.4 example.

But all that put together means our Lord Jesus went to the prison pit of hell at His resurrection, preached The Gospel to those who had died which were without God, and He led some of them out of that prison house in the heavenly. What does that mean for men's soul sleep doctrines? or the idea of being raised from the dead? It means one's spirit leaves their flesh at flesh death, like Solomon taught in Eccl.12:5-7, but their spirit is still aware in Paradise and on one side of Paradise or the other, just like the example our Lord Jesus gave us in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man.

Yet doctrines of men have all that mixed up, thinking that all spirits spoken of in God's Word can only mean demons and such, simply because... they fail to understood the differences between this flesh dimension on earth and the spiritual dimension of the heavenly, and how we are either in one or the other until Christ's coming.

Read these again...
1 Corinthians 15:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Colossians 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
...and I hope the significance will come to you.
Salty: well, it's my hope that you might come to understand heavenly operations better according to God's Word, and thus have more protection against men's traditions.

God revealed a long time ago through Solomon what happens after flesh death, our flesh going back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit going back to God Who gave it, the two being separated by the severing of the "silver cord" (Eccl.12:5-7). We born on earth do not only have a flesh body, but a spirit/soul inside also that only... God can destroy. And what is born of flesh is flesh, and that born of Spirit is spirit like Jesus said in John 3, two separate operations.

You need to understand the difference between spiritual resurrection (the new birth) and physical resurrection that takes place when the Rapture occurs. We are born of God at salvation...
John 1:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is a spiritual resurrection that occurs in our flesh. This cannot be confused with the redemption of our bodies, as noted here:
Romans 8:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Ephesians 1:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
This is the resurrection Paul is speaking about concerning the Rapture of the Church, the Two Witnesses, and I believe also the Tribulation Martyrs.
In John 3 what is in view is not the resurrection of the physical body, but the resurrection, spiritually, of the natural man. A study of the New Birth will greatly help in the discussion, and unfortunately, many that try to understand resurrection are woefully lacking in understanding of the new birth itself, which denies them a proper understanding of the Rapture to begin with.
Salty: ah.. yes, with Apostle Paul there I most heartedly agree. Believing on Christ Jesus means becoming "a new creature" according to Paul (2 Cor.5; Gal.6:15).

What you don't seem to understand, yet, is that new birth you speak of is NOT to our flesh bodies that we all shall cast off, either at flesh death or on the day of Christ's coming. You are still... trying to link the new birth (or "new creature" idea, or "born again" idea from our Lord Jesus)... to our flesh body! That will not... work. Even as our Lord Jesus taught in John 3 that which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit (John 3:6).

Even right now, you have the "spiritual body" inside your flesh. Can you receive that? That also is what Eccl.12:5-7 was showing about the severing of the "silver cord", something that keeps our spirit joined with our flesh body while alive in the flesh here on earth. Those "spirits in prison" that Jesus preached to I guarantee you, did not have flesh bodies in the heavenly. This is why... our Lord Jesus taught for us to not fear those who can only kill our flesh, but not our soul, but fear Him Who can destroy both body (spirit body) with soul in the later lake of fire (hell = Greek geena in that pointing to the lake of fire destruction at the end of Rev.20).

By this spiritual body we all... have inside our flesh, is how the operations of Spirit are able to work upon us for this present world. It is also how Satan is able to work his spirit upon those who accept him instead of The Father and The Son. When our Lord Jesus comes, our flesh will be discarded, for the "spiritual body" is... a body first and foremost, a heavenly vehicle for our soul, what Paul called the "image of the heavenly". All in the heavenly dimension have one, and those of Satan and his in the heavenly certainly do not have theirs 'glorified'.

THIS... is the redemption idea Apostle Paul was speaking of, the redemption NOT of our flesh body, but of our spirit with soul inside our flesh body, only... at the time of Christ's coming in conjunction with the end of this present flesh world on the Day of The Lord. Until then, the only way to be present in the heavenly with Him is to die in the flesh, and that applies to going to Paradise, either one side or the other depending on who you have accepted and believed on.

Salty · December 24, 2014

You only give one of the "two."
And we can see Paul's instruction to the saints in your choice of proof-text:
1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The warning from Christ is for the generation that sees the events which transpire. We do not need the warning, because that day will not overtake us as a thief. Why? Because we will not be here.

Salty: you finaly did what you've wrongly accused me of, you added Darby's Pre-trib secret Rapture idea to that Scripture when it is not there at all.

Don't be absurd, lol.
I simply pointed out what Paul teaches here.
The Darby Argument is both weak and pathetic. Try addressing the Scripture.

Salty: the Darby Argument is... the Pre-trib Rapture theory you have accepted. That's where the pre-trib rapture idea began. So I don't know why you would mock a belief you yourself have accepted and proclaimed here as being written in God's Word. I think you are getting confused because of all the Scripture 'fragments' you've been taught to use in support of pre-trib by men's doctrines.

In the 1 Thess.5 chapter, Paul is 'warning' the brethren to not be deceived. He pulled from the OT prophets about that being drunken in the night idea, and also with being spiritually asleep for those events leading up to Christ's coming on that "day of the Lord".

So yeah, I've already well... covered that 1 Thess.5 Scripture here in my previous posts, along with the relevant Scripture elsewhere that uses that idea of Christ coming "as a thief" that He Himself said in Rev.16:15 within the 6th Vial timing. Yet, I haven't seen you cover those points at all here, but you instead keep popping into your false ideas of the resurrection time not Christ's coming time mode.

Moreover, you negate Christ's and His Apostle's command for those in Him to watch and be prepared to make a stand in the end, giving a Witness for Him, a subject Jesus covered in both Matt.24 and Mark 13 about the events leading up to His return. Jesus didn't give us that as a 'watch if you want to', He commanded us... to watch, as did Apostle Paul also did.

Again, unless you understand Christ's ministry, you will remain confused about a great number of things. Christ's earthly ministry was specific to Israel...alone:

Salty: What? Christ came to die on the cross ONLY for Israel?? Don't you recognize that's essentially what you are saying with that statement? He came specifically to die on the cross for the remission of sins of those who believe, and especially in order to defeat the devil to accomplish it ...

Hebrews 2

¹⁴Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

¹⁵And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

You're confusing Christ's Ministry with the requirement that our Lord Jesus Christ was to offer The Gospel and Kingdom first... to Israel at Jerusalem, prior to it going to the Gentiles. The majority of Jews at Jerusalem rejected Him and the Kingdom, so He sent His Gospel to the Gentiles, and they believed along with the believing remnant of Israel according to God's election of grace (Romans 11:1-5). And thus both believing Israel and believing Gentiles together... are to become 'one' in Him, His Church (John 17).

But that's just a change of subject now you've made, you're getting off topic.

Matthew 10:5-6
King James Version (KJV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The Lord's own teaching cannot be denied. This reiterates the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not a revealed truth to man, though it was foretold in prophecy. This is another understanding one must come to when trying to properly understand the Rapture.

Salty: I really don't need to hear a doctrine devised by men's traditions, which is essentially what you're pulling from. The following Scripture show exception to what you've said that none understood The Gospel Message was not a revealed truth to man...

John 8

⁵⁶Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.

⁵⁷Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

⁵⁸Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

Those Jews there sought to stone Him for saying that last statement of, "Before Abraham was, I am." The I AM THAT I AM is God's sacred name He gave to Moses when Moses asked Him Who he should say sent him. The "I AM" is a shortened version.

But the real point is, per verse 56, Jesus said Abraham saw... His day, and was glad. For this reason Apostle Paul also said this about Abraham...

Galatians 3

⁶Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

⁷Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

⁸And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

⁹So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Because so many brethren in Christ are so little taught about the OT events involving The Gospel of Jesus Christ, they're not aware of how Christ was first revealed in OT times, especially to Abraham. And Abraham believed with God counting it to him as righteousness, which became the SAME Faith all those on Christ Jesus have believed, and thus are "the children of Abraham" like Apostle Paul said there.

The reason why that is, is because The Gospel by Faith was... what were involved with God's Promises to Abraham, about His Salvation. He gave that to Abraham 430 years PRIOR to His giving of the law through Moses.

And what about Melchizedek ("king of righteousness") who appeared to Abraham who gave tithes to him? and also offerred "bread and wine" to Abraham (which just so happen to be the New Covenant sacrements our Lord Jesus offered to His Apostles at the last supper.) Per Hebrews 7, that Melchizedek was our Lord Jesus in OT times Who met Abraham, referring to His Kingship in The Godhead early on in Scripture. Thusly, Abraham saw Christ's Day, and was glad, like our Lord Jesus said in John 8.

John 1:29
King James Version (KJV)
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
But not even the greatest Prophet among men understood the Gospel that was at this time still a mystery. He never understood this and placed faith in Christ and His death, though He prophesied of the Gospel as many Old Testament passages did:

Salty: you're preaching, not supporting your belief in a pre-trib rapture doctrine which is from men. Might want to re-read that John 1:29 passage you just quoted too, since it shows John the Baptist knew to recognize Jesus from OT prophecy and what He had come to do, which is The Gospel by the way, His coming to be a sacrifice to take away the sin of... Israel only? NO! but "the sin of the world" like John said there.

Your Dispensationalist Isolate-Israel from Christ's Church game is not working too well here. Might want to punt.

Matthew 11
King James Version (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Not even the greatest of Old Testament Prophets was privy to the Mystery of the Gospel. No-one was.
Therefore, you impose instruction for Israel, particularly the Israel that will be alive in the day of Christ's return (Let him that readeth understand)..on the Church.
There was no Church prior to Pentecost.

Salty: only by a devised doctrine of men could you so well mock what John the Baptist understood about The Gospel from the OT prophets! You see, God chose John the Baptist for his commission to proclaim Christ, and that he did even prior to to start of our Lord Jesus' Ministry.

John 1

¹⁵John bare witness of Him, and cried, saying, "This was He of Whom I spake, 'He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for He was before me."

There is no secret pre-tribulational rapture written in God's Word. That is why on the 6th Vial of Rev.16 Jesus is STILL warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", for His to be careful to keep their garments lest they walk in shame.

It can be viewed as secret based on the facts that...
1)...the Rapture was a mystery, thus "secret;"

The details of the resurrection on the day of Christ's second coming that Paul gave was a mystery, but not the idea of the resurrection itself, nor was God's Salvation through Christ a mystery to all of Israel. Likewise with events given Apostle John in our Lord's Revelation, many of those things were a mystery also. So does that mean to create a pre-trib rapture out of it? God forbid, no.

2)...when the Rapture takes place God will send strong delusion on those that are already deceived, natural, and without the ability to understand the spiritual things of God.

Wrong timing for the "strong delusion" Paul taught in 2 Thess.2. That event is for the deceived during the tribulation timing, which is the timing Paul was covering there in 2 Thess.2, as he forewarned us to not be deceived by that coming false one to come that will sit in the temple showing himself as God, which event Paul also taught that must happen FIRST... prior to Christ coming and gathering of His Church.
And the Rapture definitely qualifies as belonging to the "spiritual things of God category," lol.
Again...that day will not overtake us as a thief, because we have been delivered from the wrath to come, which is clearly a reference to the Tribulation, because Paul contrasts that with the tribulation they had been told to expect in their temporal lives, which, by the way, was a primary reason for their concern and need to be comforter.

You keep proclaiming pieces and fragments, but not actually supporting your pre-trib rapture idea with Scripture. Remember what our Lord Jesus forwarned about the baskets of fragments gathered up after feeding the thousands? He equated those fragments to men's leaven doctrines added... to His Full Loaf of Bread that originally went out to the multitudes. You are failing to heed His warning about that leaven with preaching the pre-trib rapture ideas.

In case you didn't notice, by that Rev.16:15 example, our Lord Jesus directly linked the time of His second coming and gathering of His Church on earth with that "as a thief" timing Paul gave in 1 Thess.5, and that Peter gave in 2 Pet.3:10. It reveals His coming is not until the last 7th Vial with the battle of Armageddon He and His angels coming out of Heaven will fight.

That does not negate the teachings which without controversy point out that the Church will not go through the Tribulation. You say it is the Angels coming with Him despite the fact that you argue previously about the saints coming with Him. How can they come with Him if they are not already with Him, and how do we reconcile the Rapture at His Return and the saints being with Him? And how do we have a Millennial Kingdom comprised only of glorified saints?
Show me the Church in the events described in Revelation. You won't be able to. Only Jews and Gentiles. Those are the only two groups mentioned in Revelation within the events.

Naw, I'm not about to let you get by with that.

You have refused to address that valid Scripture reference to our Lord Jesus warning His Church that He comes "as a thief", giving that on the 6th Vial timing of Rev.16, and thus linking it with the "as a thief" timing Paul gave for the "day of the Lord" in 1 Thess.5, and Peter in 2 Peter 3:10. That revealing exactly... negates your pre-trib rapture timing theories, turns it upside down even!

They're not there because of the promise of the Lord, which is spoken to the Church:
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

How many times will you try to use that Rev.3 verse, especially with taking it out of its context with other Scripture given with it?

No, you MUST... address the specific Rev.16:15 Scripture I provided in relation to the "as a thief" metaphor our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave to 'mark'... the timing of His return, and the gathering of His Church on the "day of the Lord."

"Asleep" and "sleep" are simply euphemisms for death. Bodily death. You can see that in the account of Lazarus when the disciples mistook the Lord's reference to Lazarus being asleep as to mean he was simply taking rest. He says clearly "Lazarus is dead."
You can also see that in the two verses posted above: one speaks of sleep, the other says death, both refer to the same thing.
"Soul Sleep" is a false doctrine embraced by those that refuse to accept the Word of God as it is written and must change the meanings to support their doctrine. It is a shame but this doctrine has gained popularity in Modern Christendom in the last twenty years.

Salty: I've already commented on the usage of "asleep" pointing to the believer who's spirit never will die, even after death of the flesh. I do not hold to the 'dead-in-the-ground' theories of men's doctrines. To be absent from our flesh body is to be present with The Lord, the very idea of Eccl.12:5-7.

And your commentary is in error, because the spirit does not "sleep," or in other words, the spirit of man does not die.

Well, you agreed with me, then you say my commentary is in error without showing why. Sounds like you're getting confused. Paul was simply using a metaphor, because for those in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation, even after they have died in the flesh.

But I am glad you reject Soul Sleep, on that at least we can be in agreement. However, my view is that men did not go to be with the Lord upon death until the Cross. It is at this time, I believe, that the Lord liberated the spirits in prison, who could not enter into the Most Holy, that is, God's presence in Heaven, until first their sins were atoned for. The sacrifices of the Levitical Economy could not take away sins, thus every Old Testament saint died still needing their sins forgiven.

I believe our Lord Jesus liberated the spirits in prison (that believed) at His resurrection which is what Peter said in 1 Pet.3. Yet I do not... believe those have received the rewards (crowns) yet, nor are they in Heaven next to God's Throne where Jesus is. They are in Paradise like Jesus showed in Luke 16, a place of separation in the heavenly, but within acces by our Lord Jesus.

The sacrifice of Christ, on the other hand, is the means of eternal redemption for believers:
Hebrews 9:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
We cannot impose New Covenant Standards into the Old, and that is precisely what you are doing by laying again a foundational doctrine of resurrection, quite in conflict with the teachings of Scripture.
And I've never tried to do that, because The Gospel having been preached to Abraham like Paul said in Galatians does not mean in Abraham's day it was then fulfilled. It took Christ's coming in the flesh to die on the cross and The Father raising Him for that to be fulfilled. Like Hebrews 11 shows. some of the OT saints looked for God's Salvation promise, but they didn't get to live in their flesh to see Christ Jesus' first coming to fulfill it upon His cross.

Salty · December 24, 2014

So when you say I've only covered one group involving the resurrection on the day of Christ's coming, you are stating a falsehood, because I've covered both about the "asleep" saints from the heavenly that have already died that Jesus brings with Him, and... the change of the saints still alive on earth on that day of His second coming (as per 1 Thess.4, and 1 Cor.15 because it is covering both also, as do the Matt.24 and Mark 13 examples also).

So all you have to do is show this resurrection you keep speaking of that takes place at Christ's return. The first two deal with the resurrection of the Church, the second two deal with Christ's return.

I've shown you, even per the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, but you... flat deny both events of Christ's second coming AND... the resurrection/gathering of His Church is written there!!!

Matt.24

²⁷For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The subject? The "coming of the Son of man", our Lord Jesus Christ.

²⁸For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

That directly parallels the subject at the end of Luke 17 about the first ones taken being like a dead carcase, gathered where the eagles are gathered. It is metaphorical about the literal event of many being deceived by the coming Antichrist/pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem, which many brethren will mistake for our Lord Jesus. Thus our Lord is giving us an example of a FALSE COMING by the Antichrist, in CONTRAST... to how He Himself will return. Don't be like that dead carcase gathered to the wrong Christ, and mark 'how' His coming will occur, is what He is essentially warning with that.

²⁹Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately before the tribulation? NO, immediately after... the "great tribulation" He taught in that chapter He says that and the following events will occur. Those descriptions are directly linked to the events to occur on the Day of The Lord per the OT prophets. It directly aligns with the "as a thief" timing He said in Rev.16:15 being when He comes, and also the "day of the Lord" timing Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.5.

³⁰And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is NO... secret pre-trib rapture taught nor implied there, period. So far it is about the event and time of His second coming to judge the wicked on earth, all eyes seeing Him come in the clouds as per Rev.1.

³¹And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

THEN along with that event of His coming, He by His angels gathers His elect of the "asleep" saints that have already died. That is what the "four winds" gathering FROM within "one end of heaven to the other" is about, NOT those of His Church still alive on earth.

Yet, the following other example of this given in Mark 13:24-27 IS... about His saints still alive being gathered on that day also...

Mark 13

²⁴But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

²⁵And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

²⁶And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

²⁷And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Notice specifically, the 27th verse. Per that example, which is a little different than Matt.24:31, He by His angels gather His elect FROM "the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." That... is the harpazo event of 1 Thess.4 along with... the 'asleep' saints gathered at that same time per the Matt.24:31 example. Thus BOTH... the resurrected 'alseep' saints gathering AND the saints on earth changed at the twinkling of an eye per 1 Cor.15, are joined to be with Christ AT HIS COMING.

Therefore, those are NOT two separate timed events, but occur both on the SAME day of His second coming, just as Paul showed in 1 Thess.4 and in 1 Cor.15.

S.T. Ranger · December 24, 2014

`In a nutshell, my basic view is that the Church will have her home in Heaven permanently with the Lord,...`

Hi S.T.Ranger,

Now I have a few questions & comments for you in regard to your post #14.

1. The Body of Christ is the New Man - however you said ` the church will have her home....` thus female. Where is the doctrine for this?

This is going to be brief, Marilyn, Let me know if the answers need expansion.

It's just something I say, not something that has to be theologically astute, lol. But just as Israel stood in the role of "wife," even so the Church is cast in the role of bride, so it is just a matter of designating the Church "her" in relationship with the Lord.

A few verses to consider:

Ephesians 5:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Romans 9:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

The Greek autos in Ephesians 5:25 can be translated "her" as well, and some translation do that, based on the context.

`I wouldn't argue with that, but just mention that it is just as likely, due to the sealing of the 144,000, that it may be Jews in that day leading the charge. That is just the impression I get. I think I recall somewhere Jews escorted, and you may be familiar with that and see that as a support. But again, not going to argue that. It's not an unreasonable view. I would have to do a bit of review to refresh my memory, though.`

2. The 144,000 were sealed but not exempt from death - Rev. 14: 1. They have a special purpose in God.

Not sure what the question is here. In the Tribulation both Jew and Gentile will be saved, though we see distinctive events such as the sealing and the preservation in the Wilderness during the last half of the Week centered on Israel, which is fitting since this time of judgment was originally laid upon her, er, it...lol. Them?

3. With regard to the Old Testament saints & Matt.8: 11.

I said `However I will ask you, Do you believe that the Body of Christ will be on earth in the Millennium? And if you do - scriptures & God`s Purposes for that, please.`

You said `Yes and no. Paul teaches that when we are Raptured we are henceforth from then on with the Lord. I believe we will minister, as glorified saints, much as the Angels minister among us today. I think we will reside in New Jerusalem which our Lord has gone before us to prepare, and that we will possibly "commute," lol.

As far as residing on the earth, I am not really convinced of that, nor do I think the Lord must be confined to Jerusalem to fulfill prophecy concerning His rule at that time. Will He be there, probably, but I do not think He is confined there.

We are told by Christ...

Matthew 8:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Which makes me lean very heavily in the belief that at least some Old Testament Saints will dwell there, which, as in the case of Abraham, is actually fitting, since it will be the culmination, physically, of the promises of God to and through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Now what I have not yet made a dogmatic conclusion on is this: will the Patriarchs and other Old Testament saints be glorified at this point? I lean heavily to the belief they will be, but, again, the Rapture is specific to the Dead and living IN Christ, so I have refrained from a dogmatic statement as of yet. It may be they are raised physically, but that too brings a bit of a dilemma as far as I am concerned, thus I lean towards them being glorified and being considered as IN Christ through the grace of God.`

Matt. 8: 11 Remember the Lord is talking to the Jews concerning their inheritance. (re: `...many shall come from the east & west, & shall sit down with Abraham, & Isaac, & Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.` Gentiles were included eg. Rahab, Ruth & others. Also `the kings of the earth bring their glory & honour into it.` (Rev.. 21: 24 - The New Jerusalem)

Agreed, but we have to keep in mind that New Jerusalem doesn't appear in the Millennial Kingdom. This current universe passes out of existence in ch.20; by the time we get to ch.21 this is the first thing we are told:

Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

We also have to keep in mind that in regards to salvation, culmination is the Eternal State. We can properly say we are saved (born again thus resurrected spiritually, having the Life Christ came to bring), are being saved (in the temporal, as we are cleansed of sin and made holy), and will be saved (to wit...the redemption of our bodies).

So when we speak of the inheritance of Israel, we have to keep that within the broader framework of Redemption, which is not exclusive to Israel, for it has been God's intention to save mankind as a whole. The Gift of God goes out to all. However, when we look at the specific promises made to Israel, we do not take those upon ourselves unless they themselves fit into the broader framework. For example, Israel was promised the new birth when they are brought back into their land (which corresponds to "Ye must be born again" (to see/enter the Kingdom of God (which was the only Kingdom known to Israel at that time))), and so far that has not happened yet, and will not happen until Israel turns to Christ, which takes place at the end of the judgment laid upon her. That is...the last Week being fulfilled. Within that promise, though, we see that the new heart, the new spirit, cleansing, and indwelling of God...are not held back from Gentiles. Gentile Inclusion was a mystery, according to Paul, and in fact a source of turmoil in the early Church, because in the Jewish mind, I am sure that Israel expected for God to bless all families of the earth (per His promise to Abraham)...through them.

But this is what the Lord meant when He said "I am the True Vine," because the source of provision and relationship, Israel, was replaced by the true source, God Himself. So too with the "tree" of Romans 11, which rather than Israel being the tree, they did not understand they were just branches.

Anyway, going back to the inheritance, truly the promises of God are for Israel, however, the Redemptive Plan of God has always been for all families of the earth. The Law did not nullify God's promises, but was given for a time, until Christ should come. This promise reaches back into the Garden itself, as I am sure you are aware of.

4. The Old Testament saints `looked for.....` (Heb. 11: 10) But what inheritance has the Body of Christ been promised?

Marilyn.

And this is exactly what the writer teaches in Hebrews, as he contrasts the image, the parable...with the true.

He contrasts the Law with the New Covenant, which now allows men (and ladies, lol) to enter into the True, which is Heaven itself.

And while the Old Testament Saints looked for this...they never reached it. For example, we see the temporal and physical nature of the Old Testament contrasted with the spiritual and eternal of the New Testament and New Covenant Economy. In the Old, there was manna, in the New...there is the True Bread. The first provided physical sustenance, the second is spiritual and eternal provision.

Now notice:

Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

They all died not having received the promise. That promise has been God's intention, even under Old Testament Economies, for every person that will be saved. What was necessary was to make the incompletion complete, and this is done through Christ. The Law could not make perfect/complete, but Christ does.

And I will stop there because I see I have a number of posts to address, lol.

Thanks for the questions, hope these answers are relevant to your questions.

God bless.

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