Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

S.T. Ranger · December 24, 2014

In Isaiah, per the Hebrew, God uses metaphors for the wicked in that being like a starving man who dreams of a feast only to wake up suddenly and find he is still starving. He also used a metaphor in Isaiah to show this event on the day of The Lord being like turning a bottle upside side making the sound of its contents being poured out. That is the event and timing Peter was teaching us in 2 Pet.3:10 about the elements of man's works being burned off the earth on that day. It is the "plague" idea upon the wicked per the Zechariah 14 example, with the wicked who come up against Jerusalem on the last day of this world.

The enemies of God are destroyed twice, which means two events. You can find this in that Revelation whatchamacallit.

Many miss that event written in God's Word, even as you have. That wrath the wicked will experience on that day will not affect those in Christ Jesus, and we do not have to leave this earth to not be subject to that, because it ain't about man's nuclear weapons in all-out war. It's about God's consuming fire, because He is... a consuming fire.

You have two events as one...and I am missing something? lol

Thus the nations on earth per Rev.20 represent those of the "resurrection of damnation", standing in judgment throughout Christ's thousand years reign with His elect. It is for them that Christ's "rod of iron" will be upon during that thousand years. And as written also in Isaiah, those that erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who murmured will learn doctrine (Isaiah 29).

Amazing.

Like I said, I can no longer take part in discussion like this.

In that Millennial time, then what does it mean 'to live'? It means belonging to Christ Jesus, and never being subject to the "second death". The reason why only... the "second death" is mentioned in Rev.20 is because that KIND of death will then be the ONLY... type of death remaining, the casting of one's spirit with soul into the later "lake of fire" with the wicked, but after God's Great White Throne Judgment. Thusly, no more flesh death in that time, this world with man in a flesh body having passed away at Christ's coming on the Day of The Lord.

Well, not to confuse you any more, but I do not look at man as having a soul, spirit, and body, but as man was created, he was formed (his body) and the breath of life breathed into him (spirit) and he became a living soul. Or in other words, man is a soul, not man has a soul. We do see soul at times used to represent the immaterial aspect of man's existence, however, if you check the context of most of the uses of this word, you will see that it refers to the man in totality. Paul did not, for example, give a tally of how many immaterial people were on board ship, but how many people were on it.

As far as what Life means, as I said before, you need to understand that man, apart from Christ, does not have life. Only He Who is Eternal can give eternal life to men, and this He does through His eternal indwelling.

Why would there be a need for God's Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the thousand years??? It's because some souls will... be converted to Christ Jesus during His thousand years reign, those who will have their first... opportunity to hear and believe The Gospel. Like Peter said, our Heavenly Father is longsuffering, not wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Pet.3). And then those must... be tested by Satan being loosed one final time at the end of the thousand years. This... is the implied 'second resurrection' unto Life with Christ of some of the "dead" of Rev.20:5.

Whether you see a "need" for a Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennial Kingdom is irrelevant, that is simply when it is said to take place. You will not change that fact.

You are teaching a universal heresy which is easily dispelled with even a casual reading of Scripture.

Continued...

S.T. Ranger · December 24, 2014

Isaiah writes...
Isaiah 65:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Many make the mistake of thinking that is about flesh in that time, when that is a metaphor for the condition of one's soul during Christ's future thousand years reign. After Christ's coming, this flesh earth age of today will have ended. All will be in the resurrection body type with only the "second death" remaining, which is the casting into the lake of fire after Christ's thousand years reign.

The Millennial Kingdom is, by the Old Testament prophecies...shown to be a physical Kingdom.

But because of a desperate attempt to support your doctrine, you are ignoring some very basic details. Which have been discussed repeatedly.

So while I would not be overly dogmatic concerning the Tribulation Martyrs being glorified, I lean heavily towards the fact that they are based on the description.
But the point still remains: you need to provide Scripture that shows the Rapture at the Return of Christ, rather than what Scripture consistently teaches which is that when Christ Returns...the living among believers (Sheep, Wheat) will enter into the Kingdom physically (not glorified), and the living among unbelievers (Goats, Tares, Chaff, Evil Trees)...will be destroyed (not resurrected into bodies suited for Hell, which the dead (unjust) will not be raised and cast into until one thousand years after the Lord's Second Coming.
Salty: I have provided you with the Scripture evidence of the time of Christ's coming with the time of His gathering of His saints. Yet you completely deny the Scripture as... written (Matt.24:29-31 with Mark 13:24-27 together in comparison to the harpazo event of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15, and... Isaiah 25).

Right.

Stringing passages and concepts together to the neglect of context is how cults arise. Unless we distinguish the events as they are given, such as the Lord's Return having judgment of physical people, which is evidenced by the fact that those taken die, then we will end up with doctrine like that which you are expressing here.

The fact remains: if the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation...that leaves no physical believers to populate the Kingdom, which means there is no group to rebel against God in the second destruction we see in Revelation 19-20.

And that is it for me in discussing the Rapture with you, my friend. The teaching that everyone is glorified, both believing and unbelieving, and live in the Millennial Kingdom is just off the rails, and I cannot seriously respond to doctrine like that, particularly when so much time has been spent in providing you with a detailed response to the issues brought up.

God bless.

Marilyn C · December 24, 2014

Hi S.T.Ranger,

Thank you for your thoughts. And yes I would like some more expansion on the 2 questions – 1 & 4. Note the 2 & 3 were just comments as I said earlier `I have a few questions & comments.` Sorry if you thought they were all questions.

1. The Body of Christ is the new Man – however you said `the church will have her home...` thus female. Where is the doctrine for this?

You said `it`s just something I say, not something that has to be theologically astute, ...`

`This is going to be brief, Marilyn, Let me know if the answers need expansion.

It's just something I say, not something that has to be theologically astute, lol. But just as Israel stood in the role of "wife," even so the Church is cast in the role of bride, so it is just a matter of designating the Church "her" in relationship with the Lord.`

Looks like a `get out of jail free, card,` to me. (Lol) It`s not just something you say, but many believers have been led to believe this. Also it is important theologically as God uses that symbol – wife/bride twice referring to `time` purposes – (Rev. 19: 7) & then for `eternal` purposes of the New Jerusalem, (Rev. 21: 2)

If believers in the Body of Christ think they are the `wife/bride` then that effects their theology, & what they are believing God for. It is a very crucial doctrine & not to be taken lightly as it has far reaching implications.

You then support your `something I say,` with scriptures showing that you do think it is theologically important.

Eph. 5: 25 `Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church / ekklesia / Body.`

In the context of Ephesians we read that the Apostle Paul has been teaching the doctrine of the `new man,` the Body of Christ, of which Christ is the Head. Then when we get to ch. 5 Paul is now just exhorting the men to love their wives as their own bodies, as Christ loves His Body - `the two shall become one flesh` `I speak of Christ & the church` / Body. (Eph. 5: 31 & 32) Paul does not now teach that the Body is female after he has just taught the doctrine of the `new man.`

Now to Rom. 9: 25 `And he saith also in Osee, “I will call them my people, which were not my people; & her beloved, which was not beloved.`

Paul is referring to the Book of Hosea where God says Israel, the adulterous wife will be restored & to the Gentiles,`to them which were not my people, “Thou art my people;” & they shall say “Thou art my God.”` (Hosea 2: 23)

In Hosea we read –
`And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call me “My husband,” & no longer call me “My master.” .....I will betroth you to me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness & justice, in loving-kindness & mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, & you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 16, 19 & 20)

So we see that the Lord has `betrothed` Israel to Himself – the husband. They were adulterous & He divorced them, then He will join again, marry His betrothed - forever.
Do you see God changing His mind there, S.T?

I will give you an opportunity to reply to my comments before I comment on question 2.

Marilyn. Edited December 24, 2014 by Marilyn C

Salty · December 25, 2014

Instead, he admonished them to remain sober and watching leading up to that day of the Lord, and even to not fall into that "Peace and safety" mindset he showed the deceived will be saying.

That is not a mystery, lol.
And they are to be doing this in the here and now. Doesn't impact the Rapture at all.

More about that "Peace and safety" those who sleep in the night will be saying in that time:
in Matt.24 our Lord Jesus pointed to the tribulation with that peace and safety timing (Matt.24:6). It was first given in the Book of Daniel about the false one who will come and destroy using peace. That is the event Paul is admonishing the brethren to remain sober through, to not fall asleep (spiritually) like those deceived who will be saying that "Peace and safety". Paul even uses that idea of sleep like one drunken in the night from the OT prophets regarding the deceptions of the end time (see Isaiah and Jeremiah).

And we can see your error here, because Paul was not talking about the Tribulation or the Return of Christ, but the tribulation they were experiencing at that time, which he makes clear is neither the Tribulation or the Return of Christ.
It's not even the Rapture.

This is where Paul was pulling from also about that "sudden destruction" event on the "day of the Lord" with those deceived saying that, "Peace and safety". But how the pre-trib doctrinists just whisk past those OT Scripture associations there that Paul makes from the prophets about the end leading up to Christ's return.

Paul made it clear that the Day of the Lord had not come by saying in the first Epistle that they would be raptured, and in the second, because he had to once again comfort them because of false teachers, that there must first be a falling away and the coming of Antichrist, who could not come until the restraint was taken out of the way.
And no-one is neglecting Old Testament Prophecy, it's just that some of us can distinguish between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

The Lord tells why overcomers will not go through that time here...
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Salty: I've already covered how Christ's Message to His elect of the Church of Philadelphia is about their being kept from temptation by the coming Antichrist,

Read it again, Salty, it is not temptation that we are kept from, but the hour...
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
It is the hour of temptation that the Lord will keep us from. Understand that, and recognize your failure to properly identify what the Lord keeps us from here.

and will not bow in worship to him, but instead will wait on Christ's coming to gather them at the end of the tribulation.

Sorry, no. No mention of the Church in the events for the specific reason that the Lord will keep us from that hour.

There is no parousia or harpazo ("caught up") event given in that Message, only how He promised they will not be deceived.

Read it again, Salty:
Revelation 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Where do you see they will not be deceived?
Revelation 3:9-10
King James Version (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Those that overcome are contrasted with falsely professing "Jews."
The Hour in view will come upon all the world. Not some of the world, not part of the world, but the whole world. Now, in light of the fact that this precedes the very events of the Tribulation...
...what hour do you think is in view, and will you admit that it is the hour, not temptation, which the Lord keeps overcomers from? If you cannot do that, even to yourself, then you are denying what is evident in the Word of God. It is the Hour, not temptation...the Church does not go through.
God bless.

Just so you are made aware, when the wicked are changed also on the day of Christ's coming, they are NOT... given 'glorified' spiritual bodies! That's another thing you have missed from what Apostle Paul was teaching in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Cor.15

⁵³For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The wicked (or "unjust" as Paul referred to them in Acts 24:15), will ONLY be changed to that first part (in green), a body of "incorruption". Christ's elect will go through both... changes, for there are 2 changes written there, not just one (separated by that "and" conjunction).

And that is the difference with the "resurrection of damnation" our Lord Jesus was talking about when the unjust will be raised on the day of His coming as per that John 5:28-29 Scripture which you're having trouble accepting as written, as many other brethren do also.

John 5

²⁸Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

²⁹And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Apostle Paul in that 1 Cor.15:53 passage used 4 different Greek words to show what changes to our being are required to have that immortality unto eternal Life through Christ Jesus. Only with the last change after the "and" involves being 'glorified' through Christ Jesus unto eternal life. The first change is just a change of body type.

The change of the body of "corruption" (flesh) to a body of "incorruption" (spiritual body Paul taught) is what the idea of ... being raised from the dead is about. That first change (in green) to a spiritual body does NOT... mean automatic salvation through our Lord Jesus, otherwise there would be no such thing as a 'resurrection' for the wicked ever, period!

Your lack of understanding on what Paul was teaching there about the resurrection and your listening to men's doctrines of "glorification" is what has you stumped on that.

So what is the difference between the resurrection of life vs. the resurrection of condemnation, how is it that the wicked are raised from the dead too, and with what kind of body are they... raised with? Simple, Paul covered it there, here it is again... but only... that first change in green for the wicked...

1 Cor.15

⁵³For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

As I said before, those are 4 separate words in the Greek that Apostle Paul used, each with a separate meaning.

"corruption" (flesh)

"incorruption" (spiritual body)

"this mortal" (soul)

"immortality" (eternal Life, deathlessness)

"... and this mortal must put on immortality" ONLY applies to those in Christ Jesus when He comes. It does not apply to those of the "resurrection of damnation" Jesus taught. One's soul must also... go through the change from being "mortal" to putting on "immortality" to have the 'glorified' condition in Christ Jesus that you speak of for that time.

This is how the wicked raised will still be subject to the "second death" written in Revelation 20, which will be the ONLY... type of death remaining after Christ's second coming. No more flesh death after His coming, not even for the wicked who are raised to the "resurrection of damnation", i.e., like the "rich man" of Luke 16 who died, his body buried, and he found himself in hell on one side of Paradise in the heavenly.

But go to, keep your fleshy dependent doctrines from men that show you don't understand this nor care to. These events will... happen according to God's Word as written, and this is... written.

Salty · December 25, 2014

False argument: I never said the raising of Lazarus was the resurrection, but a resurrection. One among a number of resurrections which take place before Christ's Resurrection. But Christ is the First to be raised in a glorified body. Then the Rapture. Then the Two Witnesses. Then the Tribulation Martyrs.

Salty: still not a valid point to support your rapture theory, even if you want to call Jesus' raising of Lazarus a resurrection. And your last statement has their event timing out of order. The true order is the tribulation time with God's two witnesses along with the Church here on earth with some of them being martyred, and then Jesus' only coming (parousia) with the harpazo event.

That you are raising false arguments is not a valid point? lol
It is. So I reiterate the point: I never said the raising of Lazarus was the resurrection, but a resurrection.
Here you are denying that Lazarus was resurrected.

No, that's just what you say. You don't understand what I said, nor are you able.

You are also placing the Rapture in the Middle of the Week with the Two Witnesses.
And while I am at it...quit cherry-picking the responses. If you would address all of it you would be forced to admit your doctrine has serious error.

Your so-called 'rapture', which word is nowhere written in my Bible (KJV), but what I used the Greek word 'harpazo' for per the NT manuscripts, does not... occur prior to the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus forewarned us of. He made that plain in the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture which aligns perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15.

And the only one doing 'cherry-picking' here is you, because you're jumping all over the place and cannot seen to focus on one topic or relevant Scripture at a time, nor even give all of it within the actual chapter's context! (I often find those on the Pre-trib rapture doctrine thinking like that cherry-pickin' you're doing of the Scriptures, because that's how they been taught instead of allowing God's Word to interpret itself line upon line, chapter by chapter.)

Per Rev.11, God's two witnesses appear in Jerusalem for the LAST HALF (1260 days) of the Daniel 9:27 "one week". That is how long they are given to prophesy in Jerusalem per Rev.11 There is nothing... written there all the way to that Rev.11 chapter about your secret rapture, nor thereafter, because there is no such thing written in God's Word as a pre-tribulational rapture.

To further show that, our Lord Jesus made it plain to the faithful in His Church in Rev.16:15, given within the 6th Vial timing, that He comes "as a thief" and to keep our garments, and then the very next event there is the battle of Armageddon with the 7th Vial.

So even at that 6th Vial timing, He showed us His second coming was not yet. So what timing does that mean in Rev.11? It means His coming is not until the end of the 6th Trumpet - 2 Woe period, which is when the two witnesses will do their prophesying, and then killed at the end of, and then raised just prior to the sounding of that 7th Trumpet. The Scripture is actually very simple IF one would simply read it as written.

That is not in question. How many times do I have to say your proof-texts apply to Christ's Return?
What your proof-texts are lacking is tying the Rapture to His physical Return.

Salty: you are only denying those Scriptures which show the coming of our Lord Jesus along with the the gathering of His saints,

I deny that you can place a resurrection at the time of Christ's Return. To keep saying "I already proved this and that with that 1 Thessalonians verse," or "that 1 Corinthians verse" is not exactly what I call showing anything.

I could care less if you 'want' to deny what I showed you about the Matt.24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 1 Thess.4, and 1 Cor.15 all being about the resurrection and gathering to Christ Jesus on the day of His coming. It's your choice what you want to believe and who you want to heed.

But don't think your non-acceptance of what I showed you directly from those Scriptures means your statements like the above make you automatically correct.

Those that are gathered at the Lord's Return are those that are still physically alive. That is the one fact that you cannot change, and you cannot show a resurrection at His Return other than the Tribulation Martyrs.

Not exactly, as I already showed you with the Mark 13:24-27 and 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 examples. The 'asleep' saints are 'gathered' from one end of heaven on that day also, and He brings them with Him according to Paul in 1 Thess.4.

But the harpazo ("caught up") event IS... only about the saints still alive in the flesh on earth being changed to the resurrection body like those of the 'asleep' saints, and gathered with them to Christ at His coming. Paul covered both... groups in 1 Thess.4, just as our Lord Jesus did also in Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27. You've simply yet to go in-depth enough into the Scriptures to understand that.

like I showed with the Matt.24, Mark 13 especially,

Splendid.
Maybe we should look at that Revelation thingy, or perhaps examine that Luke thingamajigger, lol.

Well, there you go rejecting the Scripture evidence our Lord Jesus Himself gave us about the time of His coming, and gathering of His saints, i.e, His Church, as per those Matt.24, Mark 13, 1 Thess.4, and 1 Cor.15 chapters I've offered you directly.

And you're starting to sound like you're out of Scripture ammo to try and use to support your Pre-trib rapture doctrine.

Nor is it a valid thing in a debate what you're doing with chopping up my sentences. If you're going to quote me, then do it properly please, not chopping up my statements.

There is no resurrection in either of these two passages, and I challenge you to show there is. That is why you have to be so vague in what Scripture you present as support for your doctrine.
So let's look at your especially:
Mark 13:26-27
King James Version (KJV)
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

That Mark 13 passage I put in red and underlined in bold is about the harpazo ("caught up") event of Christ gathering His elect saints from the earth on the day of His coming, and that gathering event aligns with Apostle Paul also in 1 Thess.4.

But here... is the other version of that event Jesus gave in Matt.24 about the 'asleep' saints being gathered on that day...

Matt.24

³⁰And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Thusly,

Matt.24:31 = gathering of the 'asleep' saints = resurrection

Mark 13:27 = gathering of His saints still alive on earth = harpazo ("caught up") event

But I guess you have difficulty in reading simple words in those Scriptures like, "from" and "to", and the locations they're associated with there.

Now let's look at Paul's teaching of the Rapture:
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Like I've shown about that before, the actual meaning of the Greek word for "prevent" really means 'to precede', or go beforehand. Paul is saying we who are alive still on earth will in no way 'precede' those "asleep" saints who have already died.

That does NOT mean a pre-trib rapture for those 'asleep' saints if that's the kind of thought you're having.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Don't skip over that "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" that I put in red bold. That is... the resurrection on the day of His second coming.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The resurrection of the Church, both living and alive...is clear. Yet in Mark, as in all teachings about His physical Return, it is the Angels that gather the Elect.
So where is your Biblical Basis for a resurrection at the Lord's Return? That is what you have been, and always will be...lacking.
Yes, I agree both... the 'asleep' saints that precede the alive saints are part of that idea of 'the resurrection' on the day of Christ's second coming. But the saints stil alive on earth being changed on that "last trump" (or "trump of God"), is also what Paul was covering in 1 Cor.15 along with the subject of the dead being resurrected.

That is also... what our Lord Jesus was covering in the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture, but with a major difference; He also gave the TIME of His second coming and that gathering of the Church to Him in those Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scriptures, and He showed this will occur AFTER... the tribulation He taught in those chapters. So there is... that basis you ask for.

Salty · December 25, 2014

Rev.16:15, and 1 Thess.5 also as evidence when studied in comparison.

You take passages which are not related and merge them into a fanciful doctrine.

I listen to my Lord Jesus Christ there, so your 'fancy' mockery is mocking Him, not me. And I will show you why further below.

Here is you vague reference:
Revelation 16:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
...and here it is within it's context:
Revelation 16:12-16
King James Version (KJV)
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Yep, 6th Vial timing, mark it, which means what kind of timing on earth? It means Satan's host are still on earth reigning for the tribulation timing.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Yes, there they still are on earth in power, given even power over Christ's saints in that time as per the Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 Scripture.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

And there our Lord Jesus gave a warning to His Church still alive on earth during that 6th Vial timing, and... He linked that timing there with His coming "as a thief in the night" metaphor that Apostle Paul taught in the 1 Thess.5 chapter, so our Lord Jesus made THIS WARNING TO HIS CHURCH STILL ON EARTH a part of the 1 Thess.5 TIMING.

In other words, if this warning here is only about pre-trib's theory of 'tribulation saints' (i.e, saints that only convert to Christ after... the tribulation has started, then it would mean He did NOT gather ALL of His Church prior to the tribulation!! It would mean a foolish thing like He must have forgot some of His elect!!!

Yet the Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scripture about warning His elect saints on earth about the tribulation events, and His command to not be deceived, IS also PROOF like this passage, that He at this point still... has yet to gather... His Church on earth!

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
This refers specifically to those...within the Tribulation.

Yes, it does refer to Christ's saints who go through the "great tribulation" He taught in Matt.24 and Mark 13, and Luke 21, and that IS... His Church, His many membered Body of believers STILL on earth at this point in time! That is the reason why... He said there that He comes "as a thief", so His Church stil on earth at this point could mark the timing (also per Paul) of His coming to gather us the Day of The Lord events that happen next on the following 7th Vial. And especially so we would not be deceived during the tribulation, but instead WAIT for His coming!

So let's keep going instead of stopping like you did...

Rev.16

¹⁷And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

¹⁸And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

¹⁹And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

²⁰And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

²¹And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

There it is, the 7th Vial with the Day of The Lord events which the OT prophets God gave to write about the events for the very end of this present world. On the 6th Vial above is The Lord preparing Satan's hosts on earth for the final battle at Armageddon, and Jesus warns at that point that He comes "as a thief", and then with th 7th Vial is that final battle with Christ coming with His great army per Rev.19. Everything perfectly is weaved together in God's Word about this timing and these events.

But as previously stated, this...
1 Thessalonians 5
King James Version (KJV)
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
...is Paul telling them, directly answering their fears about the tribulation they are going through at that time...that they are not going through the Tribulation itself, because...
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Understand? We are not appointed to the wrath that they think they are going through, and the wrath they think they are going through is the Day of the Lord.
Now, let's see what he says next:
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
In other words...the same thing that he just told them:

Cherry-picking Scripture again I see, exactly you bear a false witness against me with doing. Let's get more of what Paul taught there in 1 Thess.5 that you are purposefully leaving out (and I've already covered this once before too, for those like you with a short memory).

1 Thess.5

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

What "times and the seasons" did they already know about? The times and the seasons written in God's Word about the events to occur with that "day of the Lord".

HOW... did they already know about those times and seasons? From the Old Testament prophets, because that's all the Scripture they had for study at that time. And that is what Apostle Paul is referring to where they had learned it.

²For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

By their knowing those "times and the seasons", they well understood... about the events of the "day of the Lord" coming like a thief breaking in at night. Our Heavenly Father covered that point of the end by His OT prophets, especially the major prophets like Daniel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah, and even some of the minor prophets of the Old Testament Books.

But God's people, those who listen to Him in His Word, even today, are supposed to KNOW that timing and events also as those saints did in Paul's day. So without that foundation those saints at Thessalonica had in the OT prophets, YOU will miss quite a lot of what those "times and the seasons" for the end of this world involves!

So these saints knew... "the day of the Lord" comes "as a thief in the night", meaning as a huge surprise! But a surprise upon whom! NOT US IN CHRIST JESUS, because we are supposed to KNOW, like Paul is saying here that he had no need to teach them that, for they ALREADY KNEW those "times and the seasons" in God's Word.

³For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Again, one not studied in the OT prophets like those of us in Christ are also supposed to do (2 Pet.3), will not get the full weight of what Paul is saying here. Paul is pulling from the OT prophets about the deceived saying that, "Peace and safety", and then "sudden destruction" comes upon "them". Even that "travail upon a woman with child" he is pulling from the OT prophets.

As I've shown before on this, that time of "Peace and safety" the deceived will be saying is for the "great tribulation" timing our Lord Jesus taught in His Olivet Discourse (Matt.24:6 about the end is not yet until no more wars or rumours of wars). It's about the time of the "king of fierce countenance" destroying by peace per Dan.8, and the "vile person" of Dan.11 with the "abomination of desolation" idol set up in Jerusalem for the end.

And when those deceived are full into that deception, the end of this world comes with the Day of The Lord events, God's consuming fire and with earthquake and trembling of the earth ending that tribulation period and this present world, and thus ending Satan's host's reign on earth over Christ's saints, all with the brightness of Christ's coming (2 Thess.2).

⁴But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

⁵Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

So why does Paul say to them they aren't in darkness about all that, that that "day" should overtake them "as a thief"? Because like he said to them, he had no need to write to them about those "times and the seasons" given in the OT prophets, for they already knew them.

Then he contrasts us as "children of light" and "children of the day" against those "of the night" in darkness. How? It's because the children of darkness do NOT KNOW about those "times and the seasons" God put in His Word for those in Christ Jesus! Further what does that mean? It means if one in Christ hasn't studied God's Word about them, neither will they know! But these Paul spoke to DID know already. How about you brethren???

This should be easy to grasp that Paul is definitely not... setting them up for some pre-trib rapture idea, otherwise he would have had no need to even mention their aleady knowing about those "times and the seasons". The Holy Spirit through Paul here is actually warning Christ's faithful with that, in OUR times with the end coming upon us.

⁶Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

So does Paul say here to them, 'don't worry about the times and the seasons, because you ain't gonna' be here, you'll be raptured so no need to think about those things'???

No, of course not, just the opposite, he is WARNING them about those coming events of the "times and the seasons" which are about the events in God's Word leading up to that "day" Paul mentioned. Again what "day"? The Day of The Lord written in the OT prophets.

Therefore, Paul tells them to NOT sleep, as those others in darkness do, but instead to watch and be sober! Why specifically, if Christ raptures His Church off the earth prior to those events?

⁷For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Paul is pulling that "sleep in the night" metaphor from the OT prophets, likewise with that "be drunken in the night". That is about those in darkness who do not watch the events leading up to Christ's return, and thus when He does... come, it takes those completely... by surprise. That is how God is using that metaphor in the prophets, like when you ought to be awake and sober for when the thief tries to break into your house at midnight, there you are all drunken and asleep! These kind of metaphors The LORD uses are to make this easier to understand, not more difficult.

⁸But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Paul says instead of being asleep and drunken (spiritually), we are to be sober, keeping the Faith and love as our weapons (i.e., that's what the breastplate and helment point to), and especially keep "the hope of salvation". What? If there was to be a secret pre-trib rapture prior to those events, then why... did Paul say there to maintain in the Faith in that "hope" of salvation?

It's because he knew Christ's Church is going to be here on earth through those events leading up to that "day of the Lord". It means he did not... expect our Lord Jesus' coming and gathering to occur at any time... PRIOR to that "day of the Lord" event! This also is why he said some of this same thing in His Epistles to the Ephesians about making a 'stand' in the "evil day", putting on the whole armour of God! (Eph.6). That "evil day" is... the "great tribulation" time our Lord Jesus warned us of.

⁹For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

¹⁰Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Did Paul say there, 'God didn't appoint us to wrath because... He's going to rapture us out to escape all this beforehand'? NO, Paul did not say that.

There are plenty of Old Testament examples of God destroying the wicked right in the presence of His saints on earth, and not a hair on His elect's heads were harmed. One of the strongest examples of that, which is especially for Christ's faithful who wait for Him to come and gather His Church on that day of the Lord, is in Daniel 3 with the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary. When king Nebuchadnezzer looked over into that furnace where Daniel and his brethren were thrown into it, Neb saw a fourth Man with the likeness of The Son of God. And when Daniel and his fellows came out of that furnace, their clothes didn't even smell of smoke. But the servants of the king of Babylon just got near... that hot furnace, they were immediately burned up!

THAT is the blueprint for Christ's faithful on the event of the "day of the Lord" when our Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church and that "sudden destruction" comes upon the children of darkness as a thief in the night. God's consuming fire (2 Pet.3:10) will burn the wicked and man's works off this earth, but that fire will NOT... touch a hair on our head!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Now look at it again:
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Both times he makes it clear that it will not matter if we are dead or alive, we will be with the Lord.
In all of the passages dealing with the Lord's Return, He comes to Earth...and we are with Him. That is just a fact. You will go on to reiterate that with a proof-text of your own and you do not even understand it denies your position.

Never was an argument of those in Christ living with Him.

The topic between us has been the WHEN of His coming and our gathering to Him, and also the WHERE we live and reign with Him at in the future.

And I have already covered all that, much in-depth, directly from God's Word to you. I even went into the subject of Christ's Millennial reign a bit in the Book of Ezekiel, which reveals in the holy lands, on earth, is where His elect priests and kings live and reign with Christ at, which also is partially revealed in His Revelation (especially Rev.20 and Rev.22:14-15).

As I said in the previous post, which you conveniently incorporate into your own, lol, is that Paul distinguishes between temporal tribulation which they are already going through...and the wrath to come.

Oh, Apostle Paul went into a lot more than that, as I have shown in this very post. But all you have in your mind is the idea from men's doctrines of not being appointed to God's wrath meaning to physically escape the tribulation, raptured off the earth!!! Yet Paul did NOT teach that idea at all there in 1 Thess.5, nor anywhere else in his Epistles.

Now think about this Salty, do you not see that it is impossible for Paul to be telling them not to fear the wrath that is to come...
...if they are going to experience that wrath? The events that unfold are not caused by Satan...but God. Satan did not impose Seventy Weeks of Judgment...God did.

Your thoughts on that come from your allowing your 'fleshy members' to rule your thinking, when instead you should have understood those "times and the seasons" from the OT prophets as they and Paul did (especially the event of God's consuming fire of 2 Pet.3:10 on the day of Christ's coming and gathering of His elect Church). That OT prophets study is a major... portion of God's Holy Writ you are very lacking in because of... what? Because you instead have chosen to listen to doctrines and traditons from men like John Darby and his followers who began to preach a pre-trib secret rapture in the 1830's, a doctrine the early Christian Church NEVER had.

And we are not appointed unto that wrath. And when you get to the commentaries that try to argue the difference between orge and thumos wrath, I will suggest in advance that you not try to argue that, lol, because that too is a weak argument that can be dismantled through the context where these are found.

You keep repeating yourself with that God's wrath idea; we all can read for ourselves, but continually using that as support for a pre-trib secret rapture has failed miserably compared with what Paul actually taught, as I have already shown. We are not appointed to God's wrath on the last day of this world by His covering over us, on that "day of the Lord". His consuming fire will NOT... touch His faithful who remain waiting on His Son to come and gather His elect Church from the four winds. But for the wicked, that fire will destroy (yet not all of them; Rev.22:15).

Your denial of their context is only so you can keep your pre-trib theory.

It's neither mine nor a theory, simply the only tenable conclusion which reconciles Scripture on all points, including resurrection in eschatological passages. I have dealt with the context a number of times yet because you cherry-pick the posts you are leaving out a great deal of the issues which have to be discussed.
If you keep doing this I will stop responding to your posts. Either address it all, or you disqualify yourself as a worthy antagonist.
Oh, so now I'm the one that's been slandering here? May God rebuke you for even attempting to say that kind of thing!

I well know the pre-trib rapture theory is not your... theory. It may have come from certain individual crept in unawares over time within the Church in previous centuries, but the Irvingite Church and Darby in 1830's Great Britain is where it began to be preached to congregations. And by documentation of the writings of the early Church fathers, we well know they never... preached that pre-trib rapture doctrine.

So if one wants to hold to that doctrine from men, fine, but I won't sugar-coat a lie just to keep from offending a brother in Christ who is trapped into that kind of idea outside of God's Holy Writ. I'm not just pretty sure, but very certain, Apostle Paul would attempt to correct a believer away from such a doctrine of man also if he were alive today. Paul would probably even be a lot more bold towards you than I have been.

Salty · December 25, 2014

because in 1 Thess.3 Paul indeed is speaking of the tribulations they at that time were having, as he was confirming their Faith for that time.

And the point Paul is making?
"You are not in the Tribulation, this is just temporal tribulation which you have already been told you would go through."

Yeah, and we both agree Paul was speaking of tribulations they at that time were going through in 1 Thess.3, independent of the later "great tribulation" Jesus foreward of. So what's the problem?

There is no link there to the "great tribulation" event our Lord Jesus forewarned of,

There is, you simply refuse to consider Paul's teaching in the fuller context of the entire Epistle, as well as with the teaching in 2 Thessalonians.
Paul speaks about the same event the Lord speaks of in Matthew 24, all of which is Tribulation, distinguished at the mid-point, when the Abomination of Desolation takes place, as being great tribulation from that point on. Those who distinguish the first half as Tribulation and the second half as The Great Tribulation do so based on the Lord's words here. But all of it refers to the same seven year period.

Your original mention of Scripture was 1 Thess.3, not... 2 Thess. You're showing your confusion, and have evidently mis-quoted the wrong Scripture.

But while you mention 2 Thessalonians, let's look at 2 Thessalonians 2 about the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints, and the tribulation Jesus warned of:

2 Thess.2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

The subject is the coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church. Notice Paul keeps those two events (His coming, and that gathering) together, and not separated.

²That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Do not allow any man, or any thing deceive you, as that "day of Christ" is soon ("at hand").

In the Greek the KJV word "Christ" is NOT... Christos. Instead it is Greek 'kurios' which means 'lord'. What Paul actually said in that phrase per the Greek was, "day of the Lord".

Therefore, just in those first two verses, Paul links the event of our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church, with... the 'day of the Lord' ("day of Christ") timing, which that day of the Lord timing is the last day of this present world, meaning end... of the tribulation, not before the tribulation. Likewise in Matt.24 and Mark 13 our Lord Jesus showed us... His coming and the gathering of His saints will occur AFTER... that tribulation.

³Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul gave 2 conditons there that MUST occur first... prior to Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. The first one is about the great falling away (from Christ), AND... that false one is revealed on earth, sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, proclaiming to be God, exalting himself over all that is even called God, or that is worshiped. That "and" conjunction I put in red above means BOTH of those events are tied together, and occur at the same timing. That is about the coming pseudochristos Jesus warned us of in the Matt.24:23-26 Scripture, and the "abomination of desolation" idol that false one will set in place in Jerusalem per that chapter also. It is... about the "great tribulation" timing Jesus taught.

Essentially then, what Paul taught there is that the great tribulation with those events in Jerusalem MUST HAPPEN FIRST, before Christ Jesus comes to gather His Church on the "day of Christ" (or Day of The Lord).

nor the "day of the Lord" events Paul covered later, but only the idea of their being presented to Christ blameless on the day of His coming (1 Thess.3:12-13).

If you won't see the fuller context and how it applies to chs.4-5, there is nothing I can do about that. There is a clear distinction between what they are going through and the events that will take place at a future date.

Like I've said before, there is no mention of the "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught in those 1 Thess.2 & 3 chapters (nor a pre-trib rapture idea). Nor is it hinted at there, but only the trials and persecutions they were already having at THAT time in their day, even in comparison with the persecutions of Christ's Church in Judea at the hand of unbelieving Jews. Paul is simply admonishing them to hold fast, waiting for Christ's coming, which Paul gave that admonishing in many, many places in his Epistles without mention of the when or how of Christ's coming, nor the "great tribulation" of Matt.24.

Now, if you want to say those were already in the great tribulation in those 1 Thess.2 and 3 chapters, then that would be to move the "great tribulation" way... BACK... to THEIR days. And of course that would be men's false doctrine of Full Preterism, a doctrine you already denied in one of your early posts. The "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus foretold of is still... yet to happen even in our day; it's still future to us even.

Now let's see if we can make this tribulation fit what he says in ch.5:
1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV)
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

(Insert missing verses 5-8 here, instead of taking away from God's Holy Writ)

Nice attempt to deflect, but I am going to have to insist on the point: you cannot make the tribulation Paul refers to (that they are going through) be the same tribulation he speaks about here.

Insist all you want, but doesn't make your theory correct on that.

The subject timing Paul is covering within that 1 Thess.4 chapter is a different timing, for there Paul is telling them HOW our Lord Jesus is going to gather His Church. Even in that 1 Thess.4 chapter the WHEN of our Lord Jesus' coming is not truly given by Paul. The only hint is with that "trump" idea, which actually is the same "last trump" marker Paul gave the Church at Corinth in 1 Corinthians 15. Per Revelation 11 that is the 7th Trumpet, for that is the very last trumpet to sound at the end of this world.

And that is what you are doing by insisting that the Church does go through that wrath.

That's what you say. I never said that.

God's cup of wrath is upon the wicked, not Christ's Church on earth who remain faithful waiting for His coming to gather them on the Day of The Lord. I've already gone into detail how we can remain on earth through God's wrath upon the wicked, and it won't touch us (Dan.3 and the hot fiery furnace as an example).

And you can dispense with comments like this. If you cannot understand a point being made and specific passages used to make that point, much less address them, then at the very least don't accuse me of "taking away" from God's Word.

Don't know what you're talking about.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Again...dead or alive, we will be with the Lord, rather than in the Tribulation. He makes this point twice.

That's chopping up the 1 Thess.5 Scripture by Paul. He said a lot more which I've already covered in greater detail. So your chopping of the Scripture fails the actual context of that chapter. 1 Thess.4:9 says nothing... about being raptured out prior to the tribulation, you have to INSERT that into that Scripture, which is ADDING to God's Word, something our Lord Jesus warned us not to do with His Word. You've done the same adding with your last statement there too.

Two entirely different issues: the first is tribulation which they should already know they are going to go through, and the second the wrath of God poured out on the children of darkness.
The first they will go through...the second they will not. Chapter Four tells them why they will not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord.

Salty: we are agreed that those in Christ are not appointed to God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked,

Which is one thing that is so amazing about people who think the Church will go through the Tribulation: if that is true, then we have been appointed to that wrath, because in the Tribulation, both believing and unbelieving will die, hence the raising of the Tribulation Martyrs.

Nice cut, copy, and paste of my statements there, which of course is not a proper quote from me at all on the subject. You left too much of it out. By that act you bear false witness.

When I agree those in Christ that remain on earth up to the time of Christ's coming to gather us on the Day of The Lord, I definitely am NOT... agreeing with your pre-trib secret rapture theory! Got it?

Keep twisting my words with your cut and paste and I'll have to report you. Notice how I've always left your responses entact.

So no...we don't agree, you don't actually believe this. If you try to say that the Church will be protected from this wrath then you have missed this fact.

Don't believe what? It's hard to tell what you're saying, because now you've cut and pasted through your own quotes!

I do not... believe in ANY pre-trib secret rapture idea, period. Those who remain faithful on earth to Christ Jesus waiting for His second coming to gather us on the Day of The Lord, is what He and all His Apostles pointed to. And that... the Christian Doctrine that the early Church fathers had also. So I am not saying anything... really new here on that timing. I agree with those early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd century A.D.

But you do not agree with those early Church fathers, and even kind of mocked their belief in the timing with one of your early posts, with you saying that it seemed kind of foolish (I don't remember the exact terms you used) to believe what they held to just because it was so long ago.

but the issue you're having is your doctrine from men

Call it what you like, you still have not given one passage that has a resurrection of the entire Church at the Return of Christ.

Well, yes I have given you Scripture to show that, Matt.24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and even 2 Thess.2:1 forward, and Rev.16:15 forward. Yet you deny that's contained in those Scriptures, just so you can keep your pre-trib secret rapture tradition from men.

tries to separate the day of Christ's coming to gather His saints apart from that same day that God pours His wrath out upon the wicked.

Which day? Are you forgetting that the Tribulation is a seven year period?
It is not I that separate the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him and...the day of the Lord. It is Scripture that does that.

I think you well know what I said. If you can't understand, go back to my quote on that BEFORE you chopped it up with your cut and pasting.

The pre-trib rapture theory tries to separate the time of Christ's second coming, apart from the time of the Day of The Lord events when God's wrath is poured out upon the wicked. That's what I said.

I'll tell you a funny story about that with another one I conversed with on the pre-trib rapture theory like you. They thought the Day of The Lord timing was at the same timing as their pre-trib rapture prior to the "great tribulation"! Obviously, that person must have read enough of God's Word to know how the Day of The Lord events are linked with the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church!

You know, I had to correct that person about that with what the Pre-trib theory actually teaches! He claimed to believe the pre-trib rapture theory, but then didn't really know what all that theory held to. Is there some NEW pre-trib faction today teaching that kind of idea?

Now just imagine, if the Day of The Lord event was to happen prior to the "great tribulation" Jesus taught when pre-tribbers are taught that's when Jesus comes to rapture them. The Day of The Lord event is about the FINAL day of this present world, and the start of Christ's Millennial thousand years reign over all the earth. It would mean a crazy idea like that tribulation still going on after the Day of The Lord destruction upon the wicked on earth, even with the coming Antichrist still in power on the earth! That erroneous idea of course would mean God's cup of wrath meant for the wicked on earth on that day would not have really worked!

The point in this? The point I make is that just because some cannot understand how... The Lord can protect His elect Church on earth, while only the wicked on earth suffer His cup of wrath poured upon them on the last day of this world, that does not mean to create some 'fly away' doctrine to save our own selves.

There are many events of miracles written of in God's Word that we cannot understand yet, and our Heavenly Father and His Son expect us to actually believe what He says He will do is that He will do, no wavering, no doubting. We're supposed to have already learned the lesson of Sarah giving her handmaid slave Hagar to go into Abraham to give him a son; because of Sarah's old age she didn't believe The LORD was able to accomplish His promise of a seed through her womb, and thought that He might need a little help in that.

Thusly, no excuse to create a pre-trib rapture doctrine just because some cannot fathom how our Lord Jesus' as our Passover now can protect us on earth while that cup of wrath is appointed only to the wicked on the last day of this world.

S.T. Ranger · December 25, 2014

Hi S.T.Ranger,

Thank you for your thoughts. And yes I would like some more expansion on the 2 questions – 1 & 4. Note the 2 & 3 were just comments as I said earlier `I have a few questions & comments.` Sorry if you thought they were all questions.

1. The Body of Christ is the new Man – however you said `the church will have her home...` thus female. Where is the doctrine for this?

You said `it`s just something I say, not something that has to be theologically astute, ...`

`This is going to be brief, Marilyn, Let me know if the answers need expansion.

It's just something I say, not something that has to be theologically astute, lol. But just as Israel stood in the role of "wife," even so the Church is cast in the role of bride, so it is just a matter of designating the Church "her" in relationship with the Lord.`

Looks like a `get out of jail free, card,` to me. (Lol)

It doesn't look like I am getting a pass, lol. So the card isn't working, apparently.

It`s not just something you say, but many believers have been led to believe this.

And I think there is good reason for it, based on the terminology used to speak of believers, as well as the wicked, in Scripture.

What someone calls the Church when speaking about the Church collectively doesn't mean that this makes the gender definitive individually:

Galatians 3:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Again, speaking collectively, "her" is just something that most people use. And again, I do not see it as something that impacts theology to a degree you seem to think it does, but, it's not something I have given a great deal of emphasis on, so I'll just respond and see where it goes, lol. To me, this is like debating whether God is a "He" or not. The masculine is used, but God is Spirit and is said not to be a man, but to try to support the opposite by using the feminine would conflict with how God is presented in Scripture. In other words, it is doubtful, when speaking of the Church, that someone would designate the Church "he," such as, "In the Millennial Kingdom, I believe he will reside in the dwelling place prepared for him of Christ."

Just as an illustration of using the feminine, consider:

Revelation 6:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Here a tree is designated "her," and it has nothing to do with gender, it is just something that is done. It doesn't impact the statement made in the verse, nor define the gender of the tree. "She," by the way, is not autos, as "her" is. This could have been translated "it," but it wasn't. This would probably reflect that using the feminine in description is something that has been done by many for quite a while, at least in the case of the KJV. I have consulted four other newer versions, all of which change her to "it's." And keep in mind that I am a long-time KJV user, so this translation has impacted me on this issue, where they use a feminine designation, even as someone might say of their car, "She has been running good lately."

But again, when we look at the use of terms like wife and bride, I think the KJV translators and editors were justified in their use of the feminine.

In the next example...

Revelation 12:3-6

King James Version (KJV)

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The feminine designation is unquestionably justified, because in view is Israel designated as a woman. The same four translations which changed "her" to "it's" all maintain "she" and "her" by reason of necessity.

One more example:

Revelation 19:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Here, and this is just my opinion, but due to the context "herself, her," and "she" are justified. Again, as I said in the first response (I believe, lol), it is the imagery which justifies the feminine designation. The Bride is never going to be pictured as a "he," and while I would agree that if one chooses they could translate these as itself and it, but in the four other translation I consulted, which are the NASB, NIV, NKJV, and the ESV, the feminine is used in all of them.

Again, not sure why this would be an important point to you, but will be glad to find out.

Also it is important theologically as God uses that symbol – wife/bride twice referring to `time` purposes – (Rev. 19: 7) & then for `eternal` purposes of the New Jerusalem, (Rev. 21: 2)

I would agree the content of these passages are important, but not sure why the designation, or I should say, not sure how the designation could impact them that we lose the teaching itself.

In regards to New Jerusalem I would say up front that when a city is considered, including New Jerusalem, we should keep in mind that in view we remember that a city is not just a physical building, but a city can also refer to the people. As in, "New York was enraged by the terrorist attacks. That rage was felt by the entire nation."

If believers in the Body of Christ think they are the `wife/bride` then that effects their theology,

On this I would agree. It should be remembered that in the Eternal State there will be one People of God.

John 10:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd

If you are thinking that I distinguish those saved in this Age from the eternal people of God, no worries there, lol. But, when it comes to distinguishing the Church in this Age with those prior to the Age of Grace, as well as the period that follows the Rapture, this has to be maintained. There were, prior to the Church Age, two peoples in the world: Jews and Gentiles. In the world right now, there are three peoples: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church, the Body of Christ. Israel has not lost her heritage as a Nation, and only when a Jew becomes a member of the Body does that Jew become part of the third group, but, they do not cease being a Jew, and their heritage is not cast off, just like I do not cease being an Irish American because I was saved (though my temper is considerably better than once it was, lol).

When the Rapture occurs, there will only be two peoples in this world again, Jew and Gentile. Those that are born again in this period will be members of that One Fold, and members of the Church in that sense, because they will be saved like as we are today. The same is true in the Millennial Kingdom. But in the Tribulation events, those that are saved are from the same two groups people are saved from today. The 144,000, when they are sealed, will be Christians. The Gentiles that are saved in that period will also be Christians. But, they are distinguished from the Church primarily based on what period they are saved in. In the Tribulation, I believe there is a reversion of sorts to the Age of Law. I say this because that period is the final Week, and just as the first 69 Weeks were under the Law, so too will this final Week be a period where people will be saved...under the Law (which is not to say the Law itself saves them, just as it did not before). What is different in this period, I believe, is that the heritage of the Jew, what the Law (both the Word and the Covenant) should have created in the heart of the Jew will be created in the heart of the Jew, just like the Gentiles Paul spoke of who kept the Law in their heart. That doesn't mean they will not be born again, because that was the promise of the New Covenant to Israel...to begin with.

This is what will be fulfilled in that day in Israel:

Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Just as the New Birth begins for us in our lifetimes, before the culmination of salvation (which is the Eternal State) arrives, even so their salvation begins within the Tribulation. The promises of God to Israel will not go unfulfilled, yet many think that some of these promises won't be, because they believe it conflicts with the Gospel. For example, the idea of sacrifice in the Millennial Kingdom for some is absurd, but, I look at it this way: Jews in the Church were offering up sacrifice in the early Church, and even Paul took place in the custom of his people (Acts 21:17-26), and participated in a ritual (which some believe was the Nazirite Vow) which would have ended with a sacrifice. The point is that here we have James, a writer of Scripture, maintaining his heritage as a Jew. Paul himself participates. So as I look at that and wonder how this can be reconciled to the writer of Hebrews' warnings not to offer up sacrifice, the conclusion, I believe, is that just as we remember Christ through Communion, and are not again "crucifying Christ again," even so the sacrifices that may have been offered by the early Church as well as sacrifice in the Kingdom were and will be memorial (meaning that like the Law, no salvific value is attributed, just as we do not attribute salvific value to Communion). And again, the whole point being that Israel, is nowhere in Scripture...is commanded to relinquish or cast off their heritage. In Romans 11 we see that it is Israel brought back (into relationship with God) through belief (even as we come into relationship with Him), and this is speaking collectively about Israel, as opposed to the individual nature of the salvation of a Jew (who believes on Christ)today who becomes a branch in the True Vine, Who is Christ.

So to sum it up, when Israel is, by trial and judgment which takes place in the Last Week even as it did in the first 69 Weeks (this judgment brought about repentance), she will still be Israel despite the fact that she becomes a part of the collective people of God, part of that One Fold that will exist in the Eternal State.

And I hope I haven't opened a can of worms, lol.

& what they are believing God for.

Not really, no. Anyone that confuses the teaching of Scripture to the point where they believe the Church is a people more special than other groups of believers...have not read the end of the story. It is the Eternal State where salvation culminates, and we look at the collective People of God there. In the Millennial Kingdom there is still a distinction, because Israel had and still has a purpose in this physical creation, which will, at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, pass away and yield to the Eternal State.

If that is the point of focusing on a feminine designation for the Church, I hope what I have said here will help you understand I do not view the Church as an eternally distinct people set above all others. And even those who do, for the most part, while they may hold a belief of this nature, can still internally recognize that salvation is through Christ and that the Gospel only places eminence on the Person of Christ Who is the Head of the Church.

It is like the argument offered by some that "believing a pre-trib Rapture is harmful," it is just not the case. Some people think that all pre-trib believers have a central focus on the Rapture, when while we know it is a vital part of understanding Scripture and eschatology, it is just one facet of a multifaceted jewel.

It is a very crucial doctrine & not to be taken lightly as it has far reaching implications.

I am still not sure what "doctrine" you speak of. You will have to be more clear as to how calling the Church "her" drastically impacts one's doctrinal position. If you are referring to placing the Church as a distinct group of redeemed, I can understand that, but I am not sure that those who do so "corrupt" doctrine to the point where they become of no use or harmful.

There are more important errors we can deal with than someone embracing a view that makes a distinction of the Church in that manner, such as soteriological and Christological errors. Someone can be accurate in their understanding in large part, and be in error about a distinctive group of redeemed, and not let it corrupt the Gospel. Not like denying Christ's Deity or teaching works-based salvation will.

You then support your `something I say,` with scriptures showing that you do think it is theologically important.

I don't. lol. Someone calling the Church "her" is, in my view, proper based on the fact that numerous translators, if not all...have done the same thing.

Again, if one sees this as error and wants to say "it, itself, them," what have you, I don't have a problem with that either, except it will create some confusion in certain texts when someone tries to maintain that neutral position. In describing Israel as a woman, for example, you would not translate gynē as woman and then proceed to designate her as "it."

Eph. 5: 25 `Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church / ekklesia / Body.`

I hope you don't think I was saying that the verses themselves were theologically unimportant. I was referring to my own designation within our conversation, not the verses.

In the context of Ephesians we read that the Apostle Paul has been teaching the doctrine of the `new man,` the Body of Christ, of which Christ is the Head. Then when we get to ch. 5 Paul is now just exhorting the men to love their wives as their own bodies, as Christ loves His Body - `the two shall become one flesh` `I speak of Christ & the church` / Body. (Eph. 5: 31 & 32) Paul does not now teach that the Body is female after he has just taught the doctrine of the `new man.`

Agreed, but the imagery supports a feminine designation.

The difference that we need to see is that in your first example Paul is speaking individually, and in the latter he is speaking collectively. Collectively, we know there is neither male nor female, and that would apply to the former, whereas it has no bearing on the latter, because most of us, despite how nutty the world has become (particularly in my country, lol), when we think of a bride...we think feminine.

Right?

Now to Rom. 9: 25 `And he saith also in Osee, “I will call them my people, which were not my people; & her beloved, which was not beloved.`

Paul is referring to the Book of Hosea where God says Israel, the adulterous wife will be restored & to the Gentiles,`to them which were not my people, “Thou art my people;” & they shall say “Thou art my God.”` (Hosea 2: 23)

And again the terminology supports the feminine in both passages:

Hosea 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 Say ye unto your brethren, Ammi; and to your sisters, Ruhamah.

2 Plead with your mother, plead: for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.

19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the Lord, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.

23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

The use of feminine nouns justifies the translators' feminine designation which while "her" may not be in the Hebrew, the feminine nouns are, forcing a use of the feminine designations used by the translators. We see the same thing in Revelation 12.

In Hosea we read –

`And it shall be in that day, says the Lord, that you will call me “My husband,” & no longer call me “My master.” .....I will betroth you to me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to me in righteousness & justice, in loving-kindness & mercy; I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, & you shall know the Lord.` (Hosea 2: 16, 19 & 20)

And when we include the unveiling of the Mystery of the Gospel, we understand Gentile Inclusion that culminates in the One Fold in the Eternal State.

So we see that the Lord has `betrothed` Israel to Himself – the husband. They were adulterous & He divorced them, then He will join again, marry His betrothed - forever.

Do you see God changing His mind there, S.T?

I see, lol.

We have to keep in mind that we cannot exclude Gentile Inclusion based on this text, and that the twain have been made "one man". God will not change his mind about bringing Israel to repentance, for every promise of God will be fulfilled, and this is true of Israel as well. However, just as we do not make the Church a distinct group of redeemed outside of their contextual distinctions (which cannot be ignored), even so we don't negate the promises of the New Covenant, which are revealed in the New Covenant, which do not distinguish two separate groups (the wife/Israel and the bride/Church), but the opposite, One People of God:

Ephesians 2:11-16

King James Version (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Temporally speaking, that distinctions has and will continue to be significant for differing reasons, but eternally speaking there is and will ever only be One Body.

The promises of God to Israel have been bestowed upon Gentiles as well as Jews, where rather than establishing two distinct groups, Scripture makes it clear that in Christ there is only One Body.

I will give you an opportunity to reply to my comments before I comment on question 2.

Marilyn.

Hope I have made my position clear, and looking forward to question #2.

God bless.

Edited December 25, 2014 by S.T. Ranger

Marilyn C · December 26, 2014

Hi S.T.Ranger,

I believe a lot of what you said – re: the 3 groups. The Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations (Gentiles) & the different time periods. And I`m glad you are thinking on this topic which you said you hadn`t given much thought or emphasis to. Also I can understand your point about `more important errors we can deal with.` However each facet of truth has its place I believe in regard to revealing Christ`s character & His purposes.

For example: I used to fly small aircraft so I`ll use that as an illustration. Let`s say that the engine represents `Salvation,` (process). So, we need the engine functioning for the aircraft to fly. However once in the air we need to navigate. I was taught the 1 in 60 rule. That is, if you are off course 1 degree, then by 60 miles you will be 60 degrees off course. Thus a small error can have huge implications, if not corrected. Direction is thus very important.

Now I do appreciate you thinking on this topic, & for now I will just hone in on one thought you had – your conclusion.

`It should be remembered that in the eternal State there will be one People of God.`

So then, how do you see that in relation to these scriptures –

On the earth.
`And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it; & the kings of the earth do bring their glory & honour into it. (Rev. 21: 24)

In the New Jerusalem.
`.....& His servants shall serve Him: & they shall see His face; & His name shall be in their foreheads.` (Rev. 22: 3 & 4)

Interested to hear what you say, Marilyn.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Marilyn C

Sister · December 26, 2014

Matthew 8:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Which makes me lean very heavily in the belief that at least some Old Testament Saints will dwell there, which, as in the case of Abraham, is actually fitting, since it will be the culmination, physically, of the promises of God to and through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Hi S T Ranger

Consider what Job said;

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

We know the saints in the first resurrection will be raised to spirit. These consist only of those who followed Christ. Not those who were before him.

And regarding your conversation with Salty about Lazarus being raised from the dead, I agree with you that it was not the same type of resurrection that Jesus spoke of, because Lazarus would of died again. Jesus raised many from the dead, but they too would of died again. There is a big difference between being "resurrected" and "raised from the dead". The raised just had the breath of life put back in them, but the resurrected will be changed to spirit. The word "resurrected" is not used when referring to Lazarus or others who were brought back to life.

John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

John 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

John 12:17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

Then after this amazing miracle;

John 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

This scripture nails it. Lazarus was raised only to flesh, and not spirit, otherwise how could they even contemplate to kill him?

Now keeping all this in mind, the difference between "being resurrected" and "raised from the dead" is just a taste of an amazing event we will witness during the millennium. A subject I brought up some time ago, with not much response.

Before I get there, we know the saints who followed Christ will take part in that first resurrection where the dead will be raised to spirit, and those alive caught up and changed in the twinkling of an eye (quickened to spirit).

Only those in Christ will take part in this, and we know those Jews who believed in Christ will be in that same resurrection also.

....But the whole house of Israel who died before Christ was sent, died under that old covenant, and died never knowing their Messiah, nor his new doctrine which he was sent to preach. Most of those who lived during the days of Christ and after, rejected Christ, and the scriptures confirm this.

So for the millennial kingdom on earth to be populated with a flesh population, and the promise to Abraham that in Isaac (not Ishamael's line), but Isaac's line, the Jews....to be placed in the promised land and this prophecy to be fulfilled..., would mean that same taste of what many saw and witnessed with Lazarus and others being "raised from the dead" by Christ and the apostles to "flesh only" and "not spirit" will apply again during the millennium. Only this time they have been dead for a very long time.

And it's revealed in Ezekiel exactly the way it will happen as prophesied - so plain and clear, ..in fact so clear that it's almost unbelievable and written off as to having only a "spiritual meaning". Please read these verses, I hope it will fill in a piece of the puzzle for you.

Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

Ezekiel 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

Ezekiel 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

Ezekiel 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

Ezekiel 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: (BREATH NOT SPIRIT)

Ezekiel 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. (FLESH, BREATH, SKIN,)

Ezekiel 37:7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

Ezekiel 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Ezekiel 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. (BREATH OF LIFE, SAME AS WHAT GOD BREATHED INTO ADAM, BREATH IS FOR FLESH)

Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Ezekiel 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Ezekiel 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (NOW, AFTER THE FLESH IS RESTORED, AN THE BREATH OF LIFE PUT BACK INTO THEM, THEN THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL BE GIVEN, BUT THEY ARE STILL FLESH, LIKE WE ARE NOW)

If we go back to Job again, we can now understand what he's revealing to us;

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

There is a remnant of Israel. A left over, a remainder;

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Romans 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Zechariah 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.

These who will be raised are not all of Israel,...but only those "according to the election of grace" and these elected will make up the whole house of Israel, ..they are especially chosen, and hand picked by God to be brought into the kingdom to glorify God's name. There will be a remnant chosen of the last days also amongst the living, but they will not be quickened, instead placed into the kingdom on earth after the Lords 2nd coming. These Israelites will live, multiply and die for 1000 years in peace, and these are the people who will be attacked at the end of the millennium (the battle of Gog and Magog) for how can men make war with the saints? They would have no chance, but it's these he makes war with, because they are living at peace in a kingdom so bountiful, that the enemy wants to take it for himself and they are flesh and blood.

In one day, a nation shall be restored;

Isaiah 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Israel will be sifted, the wicked will not enter God's rest;

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

There will be nations that will survive Armageddon, but their dominions are taken away, for Christ will rule now with a rod of iron. His law will go forth;

Micah 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. (ISRAEL WILL TEACH THE NATIONS OUTSIDE THE KINGDOM)

Zechariah 8:11 But now I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days, saith the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 8:12 For the seed shall be prosperous; the vine shall give her fruit, and the ground shall give her increase, and the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

Israel will be brought back "IN THE FLESH" because of mercy, and she will be a beacon to the nations. Israel formerly cut off, will be re-grafted back on to the tree and will produce good fruits. They will be filled with the holy spirit and all will know the Lord.

In the kingdom there will be no jealousy for the resurrected saints, for all will serve the Lord with a pure heart and Israel will be healed.

The only ones who will be provoked to jealousy would be the Israelites that have not been elected to part-take in this amazing kingdom we will witness. They will not have a share in this kingdom. They will even be jealous of the gentiles who will be raised in the resurrection instead of them.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

There is a general rule that we die once, and then judged to die again or attain eternal life, but there are some exceptions to this rule, and this is one of them.

These Israelites who die in the millennium will die again. They will be raised in the 2nd resurrection. The end result is what God is after when all is fulfilled, all will be in God, and God in all.

Well that's my two cents worth, I hope you can see this too.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Sister

Sign In

Join Worthy Christian Forums today!

Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Salty

Salty

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Recently Browsing 0 members