He Shall Confirm The Covenant...

[seandavids]

S.T., if we read Daniel 9:26, as just recapping the previous verse; Daniel 9:25 and not stating this seven weeks and the 62 weeks this fits perfectly, but if we take it by your own account we now have the Messiah being cut off some 15 and half years before He became the Only Begotten Son of God.  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.  Daniel 9:25  So I see the after 62 weeks as just recapping the previous verse without stating the first seven weeks.

 

i am open to rebuke if someone can explain this situation any other way.

how about the simple fact that the word of God says "weeks" and some of you guys have interpretated this word "weeks" to not mean weeks but have interpreted the word "weeks" to mean years

 

I'm pretty sure God knows the difference between a week and a year

[S.T. Ranger]

Hi,

 

Hope you don't mind if I add my two cents worth.

Everyone is welcome to join in, and thanks for your participation.

Ch 9 is evidently focussed on the city of Jerusalem since that was what Daniel was praying over.

Whereas I see the focus to be on Israel's sin and the judgment imposed for it.

There were two main events in store for the city - its rebuilding, and its destruction.

There is more in view than that:

Daniel 9:24-25

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

In the first verse we see that the entire Seventy Weeks are included, but in the second that "unto Messiah the Prince only the first 69 Weeks are spoken of.

The rebuilding is but one issue which does not overshadow the underlying issue, which is Israel's rebellion and sin, and God's judgment.

The third event, as stated in v 24, is the coming of the anointed one. Hence, there are three periods - 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 week.

And again, we back up to see that the entire Seventy Weeks are factored in: to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Christ Himself divides timeframes for fulfillment here:

Luke 4:16-21

King James Version (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Now we look at the original quote:

Isaiah 61

King James Version (KJV)

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.

4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

What was not fulfilled was the Day of Vengeance.

The rebuilding occurs by the end of the first 7 weeks (which is probably a symbolic rather than literal number).

It is my understanding that rebuilding was still in progress in the Lord's Day, though I would agree as far as initial rebuilding efforts the first forty nine years did see a restoration to the point where Services were in in progress.

Thereafter there would be 62 weeks, symbolising a much longer period, before the anointed one Jesus comes and is "cut off."

And this is the point which cannot be missed: the coming of Messiah is within the 69 Weeks and the cutting off takes place at the end of the 69 Weeks:

Daniel 9:25

King James Version (KJV)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem...unto the Messiah the Prince...there shall be Seven Weeks and 62 Weeks."

Daniel 9:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After the 62 Week period Messiah is cut off. This means...Messiah had come. This has to be true if He is cut off after the 62 Week period. Most will agree that "not for Himself" refers to the fact that He died for sinners.

So as it has been mentioned before, Messiah's cutting off would be found at the end of the 62 Week period. The final Week, or Seven year period, is then described, starting with the people of the prince that shall come, who destroy the city and the sanctuary...after Messiah is cut off.

If we make the Messiah's cutting off the end of the 62 Week period, we then have seven years to deal with. If we make it in the midst or middle, we have three and a half years.

The point is, Messiah is cut off, then we have the destruction of the city and sanctuary, which did not take place at the beginning of the Lord's earthly ministry, nor did it occur at the end, His death on the Cross, because we already know...Messiah has been cut off already. "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off," which designates this as taking place after. Because the Holy Spirit is specific about this, it makes little sense to impose the cutting off into the final Week.

Secondly, we see that the entire Seventy Weeks are included in regards to what is said to result from the Seventy Week judgment:

Daniel 9:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Now, we go back to what Christ said was fulfilled:

Luke 4:16-19

King James Version (KJV)

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

...and what was not:

Isaiah 61

King James Version (KJV)

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Christ's ministry as Messiah to Israel and His ministry to the world as the Savior are distinguished in Scripture. The Gospel of Christ was a Mystery not revealed until Pentecost, and this through the Ministry of the Comforter, Who taught through the Apostles and disciples.

Christ, during His ministry, said...

Matthew 10:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

...which does not deny His role as the Savior, but shows that understanding was not meant for this time, and that fulfilling His role as the Messiah awaited by Israel was.

Consequently, the final week should be concerned with the third event, i.e. the destruction of Jerusalem which happened within a short time - hence within one week - after the death of Jesus.

The Seventieth Week is for the same purpose the first 69 Weeks were, and the result of that judgment has never changed. Israel will be refined through fire and the end result is bringing Israel to repentance that they might serve God, rather than their sinful and rebellious ways which brought the judgment upon them in the first place.

The word 'middle' can be translated as 'midst' (KJV) and so I don't think we should read three-and-a-half years into it.

The root of chetsiy speaks of half. "Midst" is the KJV translation which could be, in our modern use, indiscriminate to placement in the context, but the Hebrew...not so much.

We see it used here:

Daniel 12:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

This seems to me the most natural way to read ch 9. Regrettably, I was not able to participate in the poll because I think 'he' refers to the "prince that shall come" in v 26 and not the messiah.

 

Blessings.

The only other "prince" Daniel would suggest would be an Angelic or demonic entity, which I do not see as an unreasonable suggestion, and in fact think Revelation underscores the multifaceted implications of Prophetic Text. Satan will be the ultimate power behind the Antichrist, thus to see the "prince who shall come" as Satan or another demonic figure is reasonable. I lean heavily to Antichrist being in view, though, because I see this passage as pertaining to Israel on a physical level, rather than placing Satan as the one who brings about conditions where Israel can perform Levitical Service in an actual Temple, which would have to be the case for the Abomination which makes desolate to take place.

And that is why only Christ and Antichrist were offered in the poll, because those are the two primary figures usually debated. Not offering more than the Two Covenants has also been objected to, but, again these are the two primary covenants in view in regards to Israel, who is the central figure in the Judgment itself.

God bless.

[S.T. Ranger]

S.T., if we read Daniel 9:26, as just recapping the previous verse; Daniel 9:25 and not stating this seven weeks and the 62 weeks this fits perfectly, but if we take it by your own account we now have the Messiah being cut off some 15 and half years before He became the Only Begotten Son of God.  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.  Daniel 9:25  So I see the after 62 weeks as just recapping the previous verse without stating the first seven weeks.

 

i am open to rebuke if someone can explain this situation any other way.

No rebuke, just discussion. The first seven sevens precedes the 62 sevens and are said to be two different periods, and the final seven come after the 62 Week period. After this period Messiah is cut off. This means that period is over. One could impose Christ into the final Week, and many do, however, imposing Christ being cut off within the final Week has problems, which is the reason for the ten points given in the OP. I will admit, lol, that the list was hastily assembled and I would suggest that it may be a better way to address the issue would be to point out the weaknesses in the list. I do think some good points are raised, but I didn't give it as a refined and tried list. I will go back and make improvements and perhaps return with a more concise list. I have done this very thing with baptismal regeneration which has been refined through objections by those of opposing views.

So not sure this directly addresses your point, but perhaps you could rephrase your point if it doesn't. Are you saying the text allows for Christ being cut off mid-week?

God bless.

 

I think you understood me right, and I guess we will just simply have to agree to disagree.  I hope we all (and speaking to myself also) remember to keep our minds open on this issue for the Jews were told when Christ was to come and because He didn't come as they thought He should, they missed out on His First Coming.

Some have timed the decree to rebuild to the very day of Christ's Triumphant Entry, which is the view I take: that Christ was cut off at the very end of those 483 years. There is much debate about this, but, I don't think that any particular timing would nullify the fact that Christ is said to have come within the first 69 Weeks, and that His cutting off is best placed at the end of that period. The first seven and the 62 Weeks comprise the first 69 Weeks, and while they are distinguished apart, they run in a sequential manner.

If we place the cutting off at Christ's death (which most do), it is a little difficult to see His earthly ministry as the first three and a half years of the Seventieth Week. Nor can we say the Seventieth Week began at His death, and that He confirmed the New Covenant, or the Covenant of Law...for a Week, because the Covenant of Law was not confirmed by Christ through His Death, nor was the New Covenant confirmed...for a Week, nor is the cessation of sacrifice and oblation seen to cease three and a half years after His Death.

And I think that is it for me in this thread, finally.

God bless.

[Sonseeahray]

You needed another choice "None of the above" in my estimation.

 

"He" is GOD the FATHER. "He" was the one who planned, engineered, choreographed the crucifixion down to the last detail.

 

"Him" is Jesus the MESSIAH. GOD the father poured out his wrath for all of mankind on Jesus. This was the great day of God's vengeance.

 

"Covenant"  is the ABRAHAMIC COVENANT. In Jesus would all of the world be blessed. Etc.

 

According to the context of John's epistles there is no such single person known as "THE ANTICHRIST."

[ghtan]

Hi ST Ranger,

 

Just to clarify, I did mean that the messiah is cut off at the end of the 69 weeks but in the overall scheme of the long 62 weeks, the short time between coming and cutting off can be seen as one event. Then, the subsequent destruction of the city in AD70 has to fall into the final week, hence the focus of v 27. The destruction of the city would be too important for Daniel and all Jews for it to be skipped over in the final week.

 

As for the word translated 'middle/midst', it is also used in places like Ps 102:24, where it cannot possibly mean middle. Even though 3 1/2 years is mentioned elsewhere in Daniel, there is no warrant to read that into 9:27. In any case, 'week' is likely symbolic. If it were literal, one should be able to show where there was a word given out to rebuild Jerusalem exactly 69 'weeks' i.e. 483 years before Jesus died on the cross. Most have found that to be impossible.

 

Blessings.

Edited January 2, 2015 by ghtan

[seandavids]

lets use good hermeneutics and let weeks actually mean weeks, and why not start from the premise that God knows the difference between weeks and weeks of years, the Word of God says WEEKS!

 

not weeks of years

Edited January 3, 2015 by seandavids

[BJ66]

Here is a different opinion...

 

Daniel 9:27 (NASB95)

27 “And he will make a firm¹³⁹⁶ covenant with the many for one week,…”

                                         

The first and most used definition of 1396 is “prevail”

1396 גָּבַר [gabar /gaw·bar/]

 

And He will make a prevailing covenant {the New Covenant} with the many {Israel} for one week {7 years}

 

The New Covenant is of course the “prevailing” covenant.  This stands in perfect contrast to the ‘obsolete’ and ‘vanishing’ Old Covenant. 

 ‘He will make a prevailing Covenant with the many for seven years’ is speaking to a promise of initial exclusivity of the ministry of the Gospel to the Jews for at least one ‘week’ - seven years.  And this is exactly what we see. 

 

Verses demonstrating the initial exclusivity of the ministry to the Jews.

• Mat. 15:24  But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• Mat. 10:5–6 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
• Acts 2:4–5 (NKJV) 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
• Acts 3:26 (NKJV) 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
• Acts 10:44–45 (NKJV) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
• Romans 1:16 (NKJV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

Jesus’ earthly ministry was for 3.5 years and it was another 3.5 years before the conversion of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, followed by Peter’s dream and ultimately the release of the ministry to all.  

 

Thus the New Covenant ‘prevails’ beyond the initial period of exclusivity ‘to the many for one week’

 

Said in ‘amplified’ fashion:

‘And He {the Messiah} will make a prevailing covenant {the New Covenant} with the many {the Jews}  {exclusively} for one week {then the New Covenant will begin to ‘bless all the families of the earth’}. 

 

bj

[Last Daze]

Here is a different opinion...

 

Daniel 9:27 (NASB95)

27 “And he will make a firm¹³⁹⁶ covenant with the many for one week,…”

                                         

The first and most used definition of 1396 is “prevail”

1396 גָּבַר [gabar /gaw·bar/]

 

And He will make a prevailing covenant {the New Covenant} with the many {Israel} for one week {7 years}

 

The New Covenant is of course the “prevailing” covenant.  This stands in perfect contrast to the ‘obsolete’ and ‘vanishing’ Old Covenant. 

 ‘He will make a prevailing Covenant with the many for seven years’ is speaking to a promise of initial exclusivity of the ministry of the Gospel to the Jews for at least one ‘week’ - seven years.  And this is exactly what we see. 

 

Verses demonstrating the initial exclusivity of the ministry to the Jews.

• Mat. 15:24  But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
• Mat. 10:5–6 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
• Acts 2:4–5 (NKJV) 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
• Acts 3:26 (NKJV) 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
• Acts 10:44–45 (NKJV) 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
• Romans 1:16 (NKJV) 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

 

Jesus’ earthly ministry was for 3.5 years and it was another 3.5 years before the conversion of Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, followed by Peter’s dream and ultimately the release of the ministry to all.  

 

Thus the New Covenant ‘prevails’ beyond the initial period of exclusivity ‘to the many for one week’

 

Said in ‘amplified’ fashion:

‘And He {the Messiah} will make a prevailing covenant {the New Covenant} with the many {the Jews}  {exclusively} for one week {then the New Covenant will begin to ‘bless all the families of the earth’}. 

 

bj

 

Sounds reasonable to me.  The seven-year covenant is one of those things I'm still undecided on.  How do you support the final 3.5 year duration?  Is there something directly stating that or is that a deduction?

[BJ66]

Last Daze,

 

First, I believe that a 'week' here is 7 years.  (If one does not accept this then a different thread is required to bring that out.)  The midpoint of the week is the cross.  Realistically you do not need an 'event' on either side if you have the midpoint... but we do have them.  

• 3.5 before the cross is Jesus baptism - the beginning of His ministry to the Jews.  
• 3.5 after the cross is the conversion of Paul who ultimately is known as the Apostle to the Gentiles - this marks the beginning of the end of the exclusivity of the message to the Jews.  This of course is followed by Peter's dream... Paul's missionary journey's... and the rest is history.

 

bj

[Last Daze]

Last Daze,

 

First, I believe that a 'week' here is 7 years.  (If one does not accept this then a different thread is required to bring that out.)  The midpoint of the week is the cross.  Realistically you do not need an 'event' on either side if you have the midpoint... but we do have them.  

• 3.5 before the cross is Jesus baptism - the beginning of His ministry to the Jews.  
• 3.5 after the cross is the conversion of Paul who ultimately is known as the Apostle to the Gentiles - this marks the beginning of the end of the exclusivity of the message to the Jews.  This of course is followed by Peter's dream... Paul's missionary journey's... and the rest is history.

 

bj

 

I agree with the week being 7 years.

 

I understand what you're saying.  I was just wondering if we know for sure that Paul's conversion was 3.5 years after the cross or is that a guesstimate that fits nicely?