The Remnants of Israel

[wingnut-]

Hello again sister,

 

The translation I posted is the ESV, a very good and literal translation that a vast majority of christians now accept as one of the better modern translations.  Personally I use the KJV for reading, so my understanding comes from the version of your preference, and those verses say the same thing.  What happens often when using an extinct language is confusion, which is why I post a modern translation for others reading.  Old english is not that much different than any foreign language, nouns and verbs are often reversed in phrasing, and this will lead to the opposite conclusion of what is said.  I would suggest reading that passage over again, since we both come to the same conclusion regarding it, how can one of us have it backwards lol.

 

As for the other things I mentioned, let's just simplify this down to two major problems.

 

Zephaniah 3:15  The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

Right here they are told they will not see evil any more.  How then can Satan return at the end of the millenium for the final battle, surround Jerusalem with all his wicked followers, and this be true?   The simple answer is it cannot.  Your suggestion that this is during the millenium is a direct contradiction to what will take place at the very end of the millenium.  Satan is the very essence of evil, therefore this can only be after his destruction, post-millenium.

 

There is no confusing this with the time of Jacob's trouble, or any other time.  Evil is not done away with until the end of the millenium.  God cannot lie, so when He says they will not see evil anymore, Satan cannot show up at their doorstep with an army.  Our conclusions have to take all of scripture into account, and on this basis alone your theory is shown to be impossible.

 

Zephaniah 3:¹³ They will do no wrong;
    they will tell no lies.
A deceitful tongue
    will not be found in their mouths.
They will eat and lie down
    and no one will make them afraid.”

 

Revelation 14:5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

Zephaniah clearly states these attributes in regards to the remnant of Israel, no one else.  Nor is there any other group in all of scripture that these things are attributed to except for the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation.  John is simply repeating what Zephaniah prophesied long before, first by directly telling us that the 144,000 come from the specific tribes of the Israelites, and secondly by telling us they have these same unique characteristics.  I understand it dispels your theory, but it is undeniable proof of scripture confirming scripture.  Chapter 3 of Zephaniah is all speaking to the future of Jerusalem, and each verse gives clear information that this is post-millenium, repeatedly.

 

I once held thoughts similar to what you are proposing, and I am just showing you why I dismissed them, scripturally.  Here is some more confirmation to what I am saying, first in regards to when the Lord takes part in gathering the nations.

 

Zechariah 14:² I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. ³ Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle.

 

This is why they would be afraid, this is what happens when the Lord gathers the nations to Jerusalem.  Note the past tense of the verb Zephaniah used.

 

Zephaniah 3:6   I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.

 

Zephaniah 3:15   The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

Keep in mind that this is a prophecy, yet these things are said clearly in the past tense, meaning they have already occurred within this future event.  And the key in all of this taking place after the millenium is not questionable, one cannot discount what takes place at the very end of the millenium.

 

Revelation 20  And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. ² He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. ³ He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

 

Revelation 20:⁷ When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. ⁹ They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

Either scripture is true, or your theory is true, that is for you to decide.  For me, what you present is irreconcilable to what is written.

 

God bless you.

[Sister]

Hi Wingnut

 

The answer is here.

Look at the context.  This has never happened. It's all future for them.

 

 Zephaniah 3:13   The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
 Zephaniah 3:14   Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
 Zephaniah 3:15   The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy:   the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
 Zephaniah 3:16   In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

 

The purpose of the remnants is to bring them into the kingdom of Christ during the millennium.

It's Christ that makes that change in them.  It's knowledge and the truth that sets them free.  It's forgiveness of sins, it's acknowledging the Lamb for who he truly is, and how he changes their path.

It's all because of what Christ is going to accomplish in them under his rule, without the oppressor to cause trouble for them ever again, for it is determined, this is their time of healing and coming to Christ.

 

Satan will be released after the 1000 years, and even before that during the Rest, the gentiles will start turning away from Christ.  God will send them no rain....and he that is cursed will not live to a hundred yrs old, outside the kingdom, but Israel will not be decieved ever again.

Israel which is made up of the remnants, will not be part of any evil ever again.  Evil shall not happen amongst them, dwell with them, or oppress them ever again.  Even though they get surrounded by Gog and Magog, no harm comes to them, as fire comes down from heaven and destroys those armies.  Israel are not touched even the slightest, nor affected.

 

Of course there is evil outside the gates, that is not what God is speaking of.  One cannot know God without knowing what evil is.  They will know the difference, or how else can they change?

 

The remnants will be in the 2nd resurrection and take part in the new heavens and new earth.

[Sister]

 

Revelation 14:5   And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

Zephaniah clearly states these attributes in regards to the remnant of Israel, no one else.  Nor is there any other group in all of scripture that these things are attributed to except for the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation. 

 

Hi Wingnut

 

All true Christians should be having the same traits of the 144K but unfortunately not all of us do.  Many are called, but few are chosen.

These 144K have the qualities of a true follower of Christ.  I'm not saying the others do not follow Christ, they do to a degree, and all varying degrees.

but these  144K are chosen specifically to live in the end times to possess the Testimony of Jesus.

 

Now put the rest of the Christian world together and what do we get?

We get a mixed up mumble jumble of doctrines and beliefs.  We get Christians arguing over scripture, and disagreeing with almost everything.  We see many without brotherly love, we see Christians who just go to church and praise the Lord, knowing not much about prophecy's or what's to come.  We see Christians drunk on religion, we have not all got the same WORD OF GOD.  Different translations of bibles, different meanings, verses missing, verses added. Many many religions. We have a great big jambalaya.  There is no unity.  Would you agree?  One truth, yet all these divisions.  It shouldn't be so.  All this confusion.

 

These 144K sing a song no man knows but them.  This song is THE TRUTH, The TRUE DOCTRINE.  They speak ONE LANGUAGE, ....the same truth, the same doctrine.  They are not divided, because the Lamb has Fed them.

Christ promised that he who overcomes (in his walk) will he give to feed of "the hidden manna".  The will know the secret things hidden, revealed to them from the scriptures. Not in a dream or vision, but revealed in The Word of God.

This is that song.  The song of the Lamb.

 

(I'm not shouting by the way brother with my caps.  I'm speaking quite softly in my head.)

 

As for the other things I mentioned, let's just simplify this down to two

 

Zephaniah 3:15  The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

Right here they are told they will not see evil any more.  How then can Satan return at the end of the millenium for the final battle, surround Jerusalem with all his wicked followers, and this be true?   The simple answer is it cannot.  Your suggestion that this is during the millenium is a direct contradiction to what will take place at the very end of the millenium.  Satan is the very essence of evil, therefore this can only be after his destruction, post-millenium.

 

Is this really worth arguing over?  You could be right, I could be wrong.

I say God sent them all the evil as a punishment, right up to Christ's coming,  and he's telling them that all this evil is over now.  There will be no more evil for them in the kingdom ever again, even if Gog attacks, this attack will not harm them nor affect them.  Gog gets killed outside the camp.  He does not enter, only surrounds the camp.

I'm not saying they are blind to evil.  They will know the difference, and they will know it's out there, but it will not dwell with them ever again.

 

God bless you too.

There's so much for me to answer brother, I feel we are going all over the place.

Can we go a bit slower next time?  I love discussing all the points you made.

[wingnut-]

Hello again sister,

 

I apologize if I am coming across as argumentative, that is not my intention.  I have a lot of respect for your passion and insight, and as I said, there was a time when I entertained some of what you suggest.  My only wish here is to clarify what is true and what is not so that you and everyone else can see the issues with the suggestion.  Sorry if I overwhelmed you with my posts, sometimes I get going and just can't stop lol.  So let's just examine this one verse again, because I think it is important to take in precisely what is said here.

 

 

Zephaniah 3:15   The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy:   the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

 

Hath taken and hath cast out are both past tense, as in, these things have already been done.  While these are still future events, within the specific future event being discussed, those future events have already taken place.  If these were still future events, they would state I shalt take away thy judgements, and I shalt cast out thine enemy.  Hath means already done.  When the verse concludes with thou shalt not see evil any more, it means from that point on.  This is a result of the other things having taken place already.

 

The verse concludes by stating the Lord is now in their midst, and they will not see evil anymore.  All of this is true because the judgements are already taken away, and the enemy is already cast out.  The final battle has already taken place in order for the enemy to be cast out, the enemy is Satan, and he is cast into the lake of fire following that battle.  Zechariah 14:2 makes it clear that the earthly city of Jerusalem is not safe, half of those within the city are overtaken, there is only one possibility here.  The Jerusalem Zephaniah is referencing in this future event is the New Jerusalem, where we see the Lord is in our midst, and evil has been forever vanquished.

 

God bless you.

[Sister]

Hi Wingnut

 

No offence taken.  It's all good brother.

 

Yes I agree, God has spoken as if it has already happened, just like in most prophecies, but concerning the chapter 3 in Zephaniah, I believe it all  leads up to the millennium, and how their circumstances have changed in that time.

I see what you are saying however, and how that verse could be jumping way ahead regarding Israel never seeing evil again after Satan completely destroyed, but I was, not trying to argue, or make a big point out of this, but had these scriptures in mind;

 

Jeremiah 44:17   But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

 

They were doing abominations, yet saw no evil coming to them.  God had other plans however to send evil upon them, by using the wicked to afflict them.

....but in the millennium, God says they will see no evil, not because they are blind, but because their curse is finished.  There will be no more evil coming to them ever again, as in punishments, but the complete opposite, righteousness, and blessings from the start of the 1000 years till forever.

 

 Jeremiah 44:22   So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

 

 

 Jeremiah 35:17   Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

 Jeremiah 36:3   It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

 

Jeremiah 32:42   For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

 

Jeremiah 36:7   It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people.

[wingnut-]

Hi Wingnut

 

No offence taken.  It's all good brother.

 

Yes I agree, God has spoken as if it has already happened, just like in most prophecies, but concerning the chapter 3 in Zephaniah, I believe it all  leads up to the millennium, and how their circumstances have changed in that time.

I see what you are saying however, and how that verse could be jumping way ahead regarding Israel never seeing evil again after Satan completely destroyed, but I was, not trying to argue, or make a big point out of this, but had these scriptures in mind;

 

Jeremiah 44:17   But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

 

They were doing abominations, yet saw no evil coming to them.  God had other plans however to send evil upon them, by using the wicked to afflict them.

....but in the millennium, God says they will see no evil, not because they are blind, but because their curse is finished.  There will be no more evil coming to them ever again, as in punishments, but the complete opposite, righteousness, and blessings from the start of the 1000 years till forever.

 

 Jeremiah 44:22   So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

 

 

 Jeremiah 35:17   Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

 Jeremiah 36:3   It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

 

Jeremiah 32:42   For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

 

Jeremiah 36:7   It may be they will present their supplication before the LORD, and will return every one from his evil way: for great is the anger and the fury that the LORD hath pronounced against this people.

 

 

Hello again sister,

 

I think the difference between the verses from Jeremiah and the one from Zephaniah is that Jeremiah makes no reference to them never seeing evil again.  They are also dealing with different times, so to me, that is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

Concerning the thousand years, I think that in itself is another flaw in the theory.  Daniel prophesied 490 years for the Jews to recognize and believe in the Messiah.  It seems you want to include the millenium period in that, as a literal thousand years, which alone is more than double the amount of time they have been promised.  Jesus rode into Jerusalem 483 years to the day following Daniel's prophecy, they only have 7 years remaining on that promise.  They were never promised 1490 years, so this would be a contradiction to Daniel's prophecy.  This is also why trying to include the gentiles on a promise that was never given to them does not hold up.

 

God bless you.