The Little Horn of the Terrible Beast and of the Goat??

[WilliamL]

"But like I said, we will be able to see with our own eyes which of our views is correct."

[ARGOSY]

I am doing some studying and was wondering what all ya'lls thoughts r on these verses. Here is my question.. We have the Terrible beast with 1 little horn which we know the beast is Rome. So, thoughs horns/kings/nations will come from Rome in some way. That would mean the little horn is also from Rome.

Now, we also have the Goat which also has a little horn, which comes out of the four horns that took the orignal horns/kings place. So, did Greece split into 4 different nations or just led by 4 different people? And are both the little horns the same person/nation?

And if so, I think the toes of Iron and Clay have several meanings as in Paganism mixed with Christianty. I think it makes sense. What do all you think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Yes the little horn is from Rome:  Little horn of Daniel 7 is a small country of Rome, one of the provinces of Rome.

Rev 17 goes on to describe this ten horns (final) phase of Rome being a country that had disappeared by the time of the writing of Revelation, yet re-arises to amaze the world. On both counts Israel fits in with the description, the very place the antichrist comes to power according to 2 Thessalonians 2.  In Matthew 24 Jesus warns us to watch out for false Messiahs. His audience knew that a Messiah was an anointed Jewish conqueror. So we are to watch out for a false anointed Jewish conqueror during the end-times.  If this false Messiah appears to be Jewish, comes to power in Jerusalem, and is from a country that disappeared and appeared again to amaze the world, a small province of Rome.... it all POINTS TO ISRAEL!

 

2) Yes Greece was historically split into four Greek kingdoms controlled by Alexander the Great's 4 Greek generals.

 

3)The little horn of Daniel 7 comes from the fourth kingdom (Rome). He is therefore different to the little horn in Daniel 8 who clearly comes from Greece. The Seleucids were the most expansionist of the 4 divisions of the Greek empire and Antiochus Epiphanes was a particularly effective and manipulative conqueror. 

 

Daniel dedicates two sections to Antiochus (Daniel 8:9-25, and Daniel 11:21-35)

Daniel dedicates three sections to the antichrist:  (Daniel 7:8-27,   Daniel 11:36-45,  Daniel 9:27b)

 

Thus the historical Antiochus Epiphanes is a prophetic forerunner and example of the future antichrist. They are two separate characters in the book of Daniel.

 

 

4) You are on the right track with paganism, my thoughts are the clay represents false religion, not paganism. True religion is the correct type of clay that can be molded to produce pots for good use.  Miry clay or brittle clay cannot be molded properly into pots for good use, and so represents false religion that creeps into the power of the iron kingdom of Rome. History shows us that  the iron kingdom (Rome) seperated into two kingdoms with falsified versions of the true religion. These two parts of Rome are as follows:

 

A)  Papal Europe, capital city Rome, false religion Roman Catholicism. Many religious wars fought.

B)  Turkey/Byzantium, the capital was Constantinople, false religion Greek Orthodox. Religion was so important they entered into warfare over doctrinal differences

Turkey was overthrown by the Ottomans from within that Byzantium Empire. The capital changed name to Istanbul, false religion Islam. wars fought on behalf of Islam.

 

These are the two Roman superpowers to dominate the political and religious landscape into the 21st century. Together Turkey and Europe (NATO) will dominate the Middle East and set up the antichrist in a new expanded Israel.

 

5) The toes just represent the ten regions of the new Turkish Union that will be set up. In other chapters in the bible the ten toes are represented by ten horns, which just means the final manifestation of "iron" Rome is a ten region Turkish superpower to rival the EU.  Just like earlier Jews compromised with Antiochus Epiphanes and embraced Greek culture over Jewish practice, so the final Israel will compromise with Islam and embrace their false Messiah over the true Messiah. This "Turkish Union" could also be seen as a "Jewish Union" because Israel and Turkey will be the two big players amongst the ten toes/ten horns.

[Kan]

Pagan Rome did not take on the name of God, it did not have a priesthood to take the place of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. It was hardly even emperor worship, which were sometimes sacked or assassinated by the senate.

 

Papal Rome is the religious persecuting power - 50 - 70 million innocents were hunted, tortured and killed by the orders of the Roman Catholic church.

She is the instigator or futurism and preterism in the prophecies, to try and eclipse or hide the 1260 years it trampled on the name of Christ, calling itself the great Mother Church. See what the Bible says in capitol letters in Rev 17:5. Capitol letters - it's very clear.

 

The 1260 years/days apply to the Papal power which would grow out of the fourth kingdom on earth. 538 AD to 1798 AD.

While Rome crumbled under the European invaders, the Papacy arose by removing three of the ten kingdoms of Europe.

This little horn of blasphemy would reign right until Christ returns.

 

There is no future 3 1/2 years of tribulation etc etc, or any of the Antichrist theories that go with it. There is no proof from history or the Bible that England, or real dragons are the Antichrist.

 

The man of sin has a number - 666, which is the name and number of the title of the Pope - "Vicar of Christ on Earth" in 15 different languages. Check it out.

[Kan]

When Christ first came to the world as a babe, it was foretold in many places of the scriptures, so that so one need be mistaken.

But apparently only the leaders of the Jews and the Wise men of the east (pagans) knew when He was due.

 

The leaders rejected Him, and proceeded to apply all the prophecies of the Messiah into the future, and some are still waiting for the Messiah. 

They also put a ban and a curse on anyone who studied or read, or tried to understand the prophecies of Daniel, which Jesus recommended the disciples understand. Not because the writings did not apply to the disciples and were yet in the irrelevant future, and not because the prophecies were all in the past, in Daniel's time. But the prophecies covered all time from Daniel, to the end of the world, and included the time of the crucifixion of Christ, the Gospel to the Gentiles, and the trampling down of truth and the way of the heavenly sanctuary.

 

The temple in Jerusalem was already destroyed in 70 AD, before John wrote Revelation. And there is no reference to the earthly temple service, because it too ended with the death of the Lamb of God.

 

The sanctuary that Daniel mentions in chapter 8, is the sanctuary in heaven. See Hebrews 8.

[Kan]

The reason I am forthright about these views, is because lately I have studied tribulation theories and rapture theories, and all the different so called prophetic applications, and there are so many variations, that people don't even agree among themselves. I don't even know what theory they hold because it varies from one individual and church to the next.

 

I studied with a group of tribbers, and every individual had a different view, which invariably conflicted and contradicted another's view, and or the Bible in some points, if not all together. Chaos.

 

Is this how it is meant to be? Can the prophecies which accurately describe every event, even the death of Christ can be applied and shifted into any historical or future circumstance, without a solid reference from the Bible or even history?

 

I have looked at what people of the past have said, as far back as the reformers, and they all say that the Papacy is the Antichrist.

They knew that if they told the truth about the gospel or were found with copies of scripture, they would be tortured and burned at the stake if they did not recant. That is not Christian.

I also looked into more recent religions, such as the Mormans, the JW's and the SDA's. 

 

I am not a member of any church, so I am free to roam and make up my own mind, but so far as I can see, the only religions which have an overall consistency are some JW's, Baptist's and SDA's. The Mormans are not big on prophecy, and the JW's have misapplied some of the prophecies in Daniel. But at least these religions agree among themselves. And they all agree on a few major points, such as the vision of the image in Daniel 2, which is a panoramic view of the world's greatest empires, they do not say that Antiochus Epiphanies was of any significance so far as the world empires are concerned, and neither do they apply the Antichrist as beginning some time in the future. They do not dismiss the Roman empire or the 1260 year reign of the Papacy.

 

And as far as we know Antiochus is not even mentioned in secular schools when it comes to learning ancient history.

 

I don't agree with all the views these latter religions have on certain prophecies, even they have minor discrepancies among themselves, but the fact that there is basic agreement on the bulk of their views, which can be proven from scripture and history, goes in their favor, and particularly when their views are congruent with those of the reformation who had first hand experience with the devil's institution.

 

I remember one evangelical group applied Daniel 11 to Saddam Hussein, and said that he was the Antichrist. Of course like a thousand other similar applications it was not true. The Bible is being handled like the writings of Nostradamus, anything goes.

 

Years ago, people were told by these same evangelical churches that Daniel and Revelation are difficult books which are just spiritual symbolism and have no prophetic relevance, and should be left alone. But now the tribbers have emerged from them with preterism and futurism, and a whole lot of evasive theories that deny the dark ages, when the world was crushed and oppressed like under no other kingdom.

 

It makes me think if Daniel and Revelation expose the devil's ways on earth, his efforts to annihilate the saints through religious and political powers. It would make sense that this organization the Papacy, is keen to rid the churches of any sound knowledge about itself from the scriptures, by replacing the authentic Bible with false versions and so forth.

And what greater example could there be in the Bible than the beast, which had a wound (1798), but which healed. It would also make sense that laws are being passed against any hate towards any religion, a criminal offence. So while it is OK to discriminate against one persuasion, it is illegal to do so against another. Nobody likes terrorism, but it is OK to allow a beast to live which intends to con the world and take it down with it? Revelation 17:16 - 18, Chapter 18:24. There is only one such city which rules over the affairs and finance of the world- Vatican city. Does she have daughters who do her work for her? Rev 17:5.

 

Rev 18:4 and 5?

 

I wonder.

[Sister]

Pagan Rome did not take on the name of God, it did not have a priesthood to take the place of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary. It was hardly even emperor worship, which were sometimes sacked or assassinated by the senate.

 

Papal Rome is the religious persecuting power - 50 - 70 million innocents were hunted, tortured and killed by the orders of the Roman Catholic church.

She is the instigator or futurism and preterism in the prophecies, to try and eclipse or hide the 1260 years it trampled on the name of Christ, calling itself the great Mother Church. See what the Bible says in capitol letters in Rev 17:5. Capitol letters - it's very clear.

 

 

 

Greetings Kan.

 

It's good that you have all this fire in you, and I agree that the Roman church was the first mother Christian Church of spiritual Babylon, (the white horse),...who introduced a global religion using Christ's name, ....and since her, many christian religions have been born, but Rev 17:5 can not be used to back this up. Lets look at that scripture.

 

Revelation 17:5   And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 

So far, this one verse  does not prove the above is the Roman Catholic church.

 

Here is why;

This woman, the harlot who sits on the beast, rides on seven mountains.

 

Revelation 17:9   And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

 

These seven mountains are kingdoms or leading empires.  Since the beginning of time, world empires have emerged.

The first world empire was

Egypt, then Assyria rose, then the empire of Babylon, then Medo-Persia conquered them, then Greecia came up, and after Alexanders death Rome shoots up.

Count them.

1. Egypt

2. Assyria

3. Babylon

4. Medo-persia

5. Greecia

6. Rome

 

now Rome finished hundreds of years ago.  And who came up next?

7. The British empire.  (so invisible, no-one can see it nor even acknowledge it.  - this is where we are at today.  This is the 7th head.  She came out of Rome, mixes with Rome and is a modern type of Rome.

This is the head that will turn into the 8th.

 

Now, during the prophecy of John, they were under the Roman rule.

Revelation 17:10   And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

During Johns day, five kings (empires) were fallen.

which were

1. Egypt

2. Assyria

3. Babylon

4. Medo-Persia

5. Greece.

 

....and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

and one is .....during Johns day - 6. Rome, and the other is not yet come.

 

so No. 6 empire is Rome, and number 7 empire had not yet come.

Therefore they cannot be exactly the same. 

 

The woman rides 7 empires from the beginning to end.  It's this last 7th empire that will produce 10 kings, and will change into an 8th empire (but it's of the 7th)

Therefore the harlot cannot be Catholic Rome, because the harlot is riding all these kingdoms from the beginning to the end, she is even riding Rome..

Rome is just one of the kingdoms the harlot is riding.

[Kan]

I agree, from what I have read to date.

 

The woman sits on the 7 heads, which are interpreted as you have laid out. Peoples, nations etc.

 

IMO the Bible suggests that this woman started in Babylon, in the plains of Shinar. Zechariah 5: 6- 11.

 

But I also notice that the seven kingdoms correspond with those mentioned in the books of Daniel and Revelation, and I would not expect to interpret those 7 kingdoms from anywhere else, for the time being.

 

Revelation 12 shows a dragon with 7 heads, and it suggests that this dragon was around from the beginning of earth as the "serpent," and also involved in the kingdoms of earth. So I can see why some would include Egypt in counting the heads.

 

But if we go by the prophetic books alone, we have Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Papal Rome, and two or three other beasts to make the 7th and 8th. We know the 8th is of the 7, so we have a seven headed dragon, and beast.

 

If Satan has been the instigator of centralizing and controlling the nations into empires, we should expect a religious agenda against the people of God in each kingdom, as we do in the experience of Daniel in Babylon and Persia.

 

In the prophetic books these elements of persecution are dealt with very clearly, showing that it is not just a political issue.

 

We find that the Papacy is Satan's greatest success in using false religion through the state powers.

So this wicked woman which rides the seven headed beast is false religion, and a persecuting power "for in her was found the blood... of all that had been slain."

 

Daniel talks about this as the abomination which makes desolate (the truth). It was present in the pagan nations, and even present in the leadership of Israel, that's why God allowed their captivity. And we find that the angel informs Daniel that this abomination would increase in Israel, even cutting down the Messiah, and growing in the world until it became the blasphemous and persecuting horn power, which would rule for 1260 years - longer than any other kingdom.

 

In Revelation 13 the Papacy is represented as a beast - which had a wound and lived. But in Revelation 17 the red beast is not the Papacy, but the people or nations on which she rides. While stripped of her state powers in 1798 AD, she is upheld by the world through other means  - moral support. The people of the world are the ones who will do as Satan pleases, they will cause her to be carried, by their demands - see Rev 13:14 The people of the earth are impressed by deception and miracles to set up an image to the beast which had the wound - the Papacy.

 

The Papacy is simply a culmination of false religion working with state powers. History shows that the secret societies of the Papacy go right back to Babylon and have been involved in cruelties on society, espionage and undermining of good government ever since then. So she can be held responsible for the blood of all the innocents that have been slain in the earth.

 

The secular powers of earth will one day wake up to her wiles and burn her with fire. Rev 17:16.

[Sister]

I agree, from what I have read to date.

 

The woman sits on the 7 heads, which are interpreted as you have laid out. Peoples, nations etc.

 

IMO the Bible suggests that this woman started in Babylon, in the plains of Shinar. Zechariah 5: 6- 11.

 

Thank you Kan

 

I know now that we are on the same page.  It's really important that we are coming from the same understanding in order to prove our points.

To further explain what I wish to point out, you said that this woman started in Babylon.  Well she did, but not the same Babylon that king Nebbuchadnezzar ruled.  We have to go back to Nimrod.  Nimrod started his kingdom in Babel, and from there his kingdom formed the very first empire of Egypt. 

 

This harlot who sits on all the 7 major world empires, is Satan's woman.  Not a real woman, but this woman represents his system,  and how he would control it from beginning to end. His system includes kings or rulers whom he would use to manipulate and control the masses throughout the ages, and fill those masses with lies, deceit and oppression....an unfair system where anything but the truth is supplied.

 

 

Spiritual Babylon, is all these kingdoms of Satan, and the way it was run from the very first empire of Egypt to the last before Christ returns.  Satan's kingdom is spiritually called Babylon the Great, especially in the latter years, and has nothing to do with Nebuchudnezzar, but because he started his first kingdom which was to rule man on large scale in Babel.  Babel means confusion.  It started there, but really that first Babel became the empire of Egypt, ....that first mountain (kingdom) he ruled over and gave order and set a precedence to future kingdoms who would arise.

 

 

 

But I also notice that the seven kingdoms correspond with those mentioned in the books of Daniel and Revelation, and I would not expect to interpret those 7 kingdoms from anywhere else, for the time being.

 

 

I agree with you that you are on the right track, but If we look into it really clearly, Daniel starts with Nebuchadnezzars kingdom of Babylon.  Egypt and Assyria are not mentioned here.  We learn about them from the other books written before Daniel.  So when we look at the dreadful image Daniel interpreted, it only started from Babylon.  King Nebuchadnezzar was this head of gold.  We have to take into account that the first two empires of Egypt and Assyria have come and gone by this stage.  Babylon is that 3rd kingdom or head in Revelations 13.

 

Revelation 12 shows a dragon with 7 heads, and it suggests that this dragon was around from the beginning of earth as the "serpent," and also involved in the kingdoms of earth. So I can see why some would include Egypt in counting the heads.

 

 

The serpent has been here from the beginning, yes, but in order for him to control the masses, he needed kings and a system of governing to introduce his teachings.

 

 

 

But if we go by the prophetic books alone, we have Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, Papal Rome, and two or three other beasts to make the 7th and 8th. We know the 8th is of the 7, so we have a seven headed dragon, and beast.

 

 

Sorry Kan, but Papal Rome does not belong there.  She is only part of Satans kingdom, and can't be a head all on her own. She was introduced during Rome's rule yes, and although Rome is no more, her power from the religious side, and wealth have remained to this day.  She paved the way for Christian religion to infiltrate the sytem, but Rome is only part of the system, and not the system. She is not an empire all on her own.  This empire we live in today is far greater than being just Papal Rome. Papal Rome is only but part of this empire today,...a member.... she belongs to it, and used because of her wealth and influence, but is not the empire we are in today.

 

The empire we are in today, is the same empire that has come to manipulate our values, beliefs. It's an empire that has shaped the minds of millions world wide, an empire that offers freedom of religion, speech,.sexual freedom,, .it doesn't matter who you worship, take your pick, ... it's ultimate teaching is to believe in and do what you want.  Believe in nothing if you want.  It subtly teaches in our schools and through it's media that there is no God, believe in science, therefore there is no devil. and that life is short, so use it to accomplish and gain as much as you can, do whatever makes you happy, just go with the flow and fill yourselves with whatever you desire.

 

 

If Satan has been the instigator of centralizing and controlling the nations into empires, we should expect a religious agenda against the people of God in each kingdom, as we do in the experience of Daniel in Babylon and Persia.

 

In the prophetic books these elements of persecution are dealt with very clearly, showing that it is not just a political issue.

 

 

Yes, we know this is coming.  We know exactly how Satan is going to do it.  It is very spiritual indeed, because it's a plan to eradicate the true worshipers of Christ.  He will put us into a corner because it's derived from his hatred of all God fearing people who follow the lamb.  This is the only spiritual side to what's coming all summed up.  It's been only a spiritual war until now, but he is going to destroy the flesh also.  What he doesn't know is that death will be conquered at the resurrection amongst all those saints he will kill.  If he knew this, he would not do it, for once the saints obtain their spiritual bodies, they will see him as he clearly is in that spiritual dimension, which will break his power of them and can never deceive, tempt, nor kill again.  So he sets himself up for another fall, giving them more power unknowingly.

 

 

We find that the Papacy is Satan's greatest success in using false religion through the state powers.

So this wicked woman which rides the seven headed beast is false religion, and a persecuting power "for in her was found the blood... of all that had been slain."

 

 

As I explained before, this woman existed from the beginning. She is Satan's system.  His worldly system.   His system is the mother of harlots.  The beginning of abominations.  His system is depicted as a woman because a woman produces children.  His teachings are not just religious, but teach us to believe in whatever we desire.  Believe there a God, or believe there is no God, believe in whatever god, or believe in material things, believe in sexual freedom, believe in yourself, that you are god, and can control your own universe,... and blaspheme whoever you like...believe in men, and science, and scholars, but believe anything but the truth.  This is his woman, and his teachings all diverse to fit every ones desire.

 

Her world empires started in Egypt.  Papal Rome could not be responsible for the kingdoms before her, for she was only the 6th empire.  The one who is responsible for all the blood on her hands is Satan's woman - his system.  His system is responsible right from the beginning, and carries all the blood on his hands, through all the kingdoms he has controlled.  An unfair system and kingdom which will be destroyed to never return.

 

 

God bless you Kan.

 

 

[Kan]

Yes, I agree.

The bottom line is that Satan is interested in the downfall of mankind, especially the faithful to God. He will use whatever powers there are to manipulate them his way.

Fortunately God overrules for the sake of all mankind - especially the faithful. God overrules and soon the battle will come to a head, with a defeat of the wicked. God is victorious, usually after it seems He cannot win.

[Sister]

Yes, I agree.

The bottom line is that Satan is interested in the downfall of mankind, especially the faithful to God. He will use whatever powers there are to manipulate them his way.

Fortunately God overrules for the sake of all mankind - especially the faithful. God overrules and soon the battle will come to a head, with a defeat of the wicked. God is victorious, usually after it seems He cannot win.

Amen Kan

 

I agree with you here brother.