Pre-Tribulation Rapture: A Divine Imperative

[WilliamL]

 

Marilyn, I understand what you believe the sequence will be. But you never have really addressed what appear to be significant, irreconcilable differences in the accounts. One account (6th Seal) says that when the great earthquake takes place, kings hide themselves; the other account (7th Trumpet period) says they are fighting with the Lord.

Also, at the 6th Seal, 'every mountain and island are moved out of its place.' 6:14

At the 7th Bowl, 'every island flees away [or, vanishes], and the mountains are not found.' 16:20 This indicates a much severer earthquake than the former, wherein the mountains are clearly still existing though moved. Likewise, the phrase at the 7th Trumpet, "such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth" indicates the greater severity of the earthquake.

I cannot ignore such stark differences of descriptions between the times of the great earthquakes, which is why I believe they cannot be the same one. And likewise, the testimony of the prototype coming of the Lord during the Exodus shows three distinct earthquakes.

Hi WilliamL,

I think it would be good to have a close look at what you are saying. This is what I hear you say –

 

1. 6th seal Gt. Eq. `…every mountain & island moved out of its place.`(Rev. 6: 14)

2. ……………….(6th trumpet. Rev. 11: 13 & 14)

3. 7th bowl Gt. Eq. `…every island flees away, & the mountains are not found.` (Rev. 16: 20)

(7th trumpet????)

`..such a mighty & great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.`(Rev. 16: 18)

Now you mistakenly separated the `such a mighty…` from the 7th bowl & made it seem like it was elsewhere – the 7th trumpet. However it is the 6th trumpet that also has the mention of the great earthquake. (Rev. 11: 13 & 14 the second woe.)

 

William's reply: My mistake. I wrote 7th Trumpet when I meant 7th Bowl. Another senior moment...

So let`s look at your descriptions of the Great Earthquake/s.

1. 6th seal. Gt. Eq. Great earthquake.

2. ………….(6th trumpet Gt. Eq.)

3. 7th bowl Gt. Eq. You say, `This indicates a much severe earthquake than the former…`

 

Then you go on to describe this great earthquake again but presenting it as though it is a different one. `such a mighty & great earthquake…` You say, `indicates the greater severity of the Gt. Eq.`

So here we see you using such words as `a much severe…` & `the greater severity…` Now if the Lord was presenting 3 different great earthquakes He would have used the word `another great earthquake,` & `an even greater earthquake` to differentiate between them.

This is how the Lord differentiated between the angels in Rev. 14.

 

`..& I saw another angel…` (Rev. 14: 6)

`..and another angel…..`(Rev. 14: 15)

Also concerning the signs….` And I saw another sign…` (Rev. 15: 1)

So we see that God is quite able to use the language He made to enable us to understand precisely what He is meaning. There is NO word `another,` before the great earthquakes so that is quite an obvious indication that they are the same great earthquake.

Sorry, 'lack of evidence for is not the same as evidence against' -- a basic tenet of logic. 

 

Besides, Rev. 10:1 says, "I saw another mighty angel," while Rev. 18:21 says, "Then a mighty angel..." -- so your presumption that John (not God) would always use "another" for each different angel (or earthquake) does not hold up.

[WilliamL]

 

And likewise, the testimony of the prototype coming of the Lord during the Exodus shows three distinct earthquakes.

At the previous descent of the Lord, the first earthquake occurred at Mount Sinai, when the elect were called up onto the mount. The second earthquake occurred when God established his earthly government, and overthrew Korah's rebellion. The third earthquake occurred when God personally came to battle against the gathered assembly of nations.

Likewise, in the End Times, the first earthquake will occur when Jesus descends to take up his elect to heavenly Mount Zion; the second just before he establishes his earthly kingdom; and the third when he personally comes to battle against the assembly of nations. Just as it says in Revelation.

Interesting points. I will comment first on your connections of OT to NT & then on the prototype credibility.

1. Mount Sinai.

OT. Only Moses was called up the Mount of Sinai for a short time. God`s people stayed at the foot of the Mount. (Ex. 19: 17 & 20)

NT. All the Body of Christ is called up to the clouds & then the third heaven. (1 Thess. 4: 17)

 

William's reply: False on both accounts. 75 people in all -- Moses and Joshua, Aaron and 2 sons, and 70 elders went up into the presence of YHWH, and ate and drank. Ex. 24:9ff.

Re: the Church, only the elect/chosen will go up, as demonstrated in the parable of the 10 virgins, 5 of who were left behind, although all 10 went out to meet Jesus the Bridegroom. Just as at Mount Sinai, when only those called went up.

2. Korah`s Rebellion.

OT. The rebellion was with God`s own people. And only the priesthood was established & not the full government with the kings. (Num. 16: 5)

NT. The rebellion in Rev. 19: 19 concerns the rebellious people of the world with Satan.

 

William: Yes, the rebellion was with God's own people Israel. That rebellion in the End Times is called "the time of Jacob's trouble," Jer. 30:7, which is the period of 1260 days spoken of in Rev. 11-13 and Daniel 7 and 12. The elect of the Church (those whose spiritual/ruach/pneuma natures were prepared) will be taken up, but the non-elect believers (those of soul/nephesh/psuche natures) will remain on earth to be purged, as we are told in Ezek. 20:33ff., 36:24ff., and other OT passages; also Rev. 12.

 

Re: the Aaron's rule being established, he was "the man whom I [YHWH] chose," Num. 17:5. The High Priest was God's chosen man to judge Israel up unto the time that the Israelites rejected God as their King in the days of Samuel, and demanded a human king.

 

The rebellion in Rev. 19 concerns the nations/Goyim, not Israel. So the order of God's Judgment is: 1) spirit-level peoples [seals]; 2) Soul-level peoples [Trumpets]; 3) flesh-level peoples [bowls]. Exactly like during the Exodus, three consecutive judgments over time.

Finally though, let`s look at this topic of `prototype.` Now where do you get God`s authority in God`s word to do this connection. The only relationship I see with the OT is in regard to Christ`s mediatorial ministry & as examples of wrong behaviour as examples for us not to do.

`The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet manifest, while the first tabernacle was yet standing: which was a figure for the time then present…..but Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater & more perfect tabernacle,…..`(Heb. 9: 8, 9, 11)

Neither be you idolaters…..neither let us commit fornication….neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them….neither murmur you, as some of them…

Now all these things happened to them for ensamples: & they are written for our admonition…..` (1 Cor. 10: 1 – 11)

So you see William these are examples of wrong behaviour for us not to follow. I do not see anywhere in scripture where we can just take events of the OT & make them a `prototype` of any NT events.

Even Christ`s `as in the days of Noah…` all relates to behaviour. Thus I believe that once we pick & choose what we want to be a `prototype` then it is open season of God`s word for all sorts of strange beliefs.

I answered this above, post 153: "Third, as I show in detail on my website, and have shown some here, the OT patterns (types and shadows) at the time of the Exodus, and at the time of Solomon the Prince coming into his kingdom, portray the typologies of the Seals, Trumpets, and Bows happening sequentially, not simultaneously.

 

The sacrificial crucifixion of Jesus at his first coming was portrayed by OT types and shadows, such as Abraham's sacrifice of his"only son" Isaac, and the events of the first Passover just prior to the Exodus. Paul tells us in Gal. 4:21f., and especially Heb. 12:18-18, that events of the Exodus are types of End Time events; likewise Ezek. 20:35-36 and other OT passages.

[WilliamL]

you appear to answer my post in generalised terms instead of dealing specifically with my points.

 

More specifically I did actually deal with your "differences in the accounts". I showed you that the Greek word in Rev 6 means "removed" and therefore does not in any way contradict the wording of Rev 16:20 which describes the mountains as "not found".  Removed/not found... this is a dramatic confirmation that we are referring to the same event, not a contradiction.

 

In addition I showed you the vast similarities between the two events,  your view requires that massive mountains are moved twice, people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice.  Really?   I'm glad the bible was written for simple people to understand, because intelligent people focus on the full range of possibilities. Simple people accept the obvious. In this case you are denying what is obvious.

 

The primary meaning of kineo means to move/be moved. Not be destroyed, which is what you try to force upon the context. A mountain can be moved/removed without being destroyed. Whereas mountains "not found" mean that they either totally disappear (one of the meanings of heurisko) or be so totally altered that they cannot be recognized as the same mountain. E.g. Zech 14:10 : "All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem."

 

Re: your last paragraph, I've said nothing about "people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice." You misrepresented me.

 

And remember, in the days of the Exodus, there were three earthquakes, and there were two great heavenly disruptions: the first when God descended upon Sinai, the second when God altered the course of the day, extending it substantially: 'Joshua's long day," Josh.10.

[WilliamL]

 

...That's a very aggressive post considering all three of the rapture theories are not set in stone. I am within my biblical right to reject all three positions and form my own that is more consistent. 

 

William's reply: Only three rapture theories? Boy, are you outdated.    And of course you are entitled to have whatever opinion you like. And others are entitled to criticize it.

 

 No, inchrist, the GT does not end at Daniel's 70th week. That was fulfilled during the era of the destruction of the Temple and the judgment of the Aaronic priesthood in 66-73 AD. 

See this is where pre tribs have it correct...the history surrounding the events that occured with your association of Daniels 70th week happened, in fact one could actually conclude that those events are forerunners of what will transpire in Revelation. It does not conclude that Daniels 70th week was fullfilled. In other words a prototype happened. 

The bible is full of prototypes,you should know this.

 

William: I agree. With the emphasis on -type. You see, pre-tribbers and others say that the 70th week will be fulfilled to the letter in the End Times. But types and shadows have never been fulfilled to the letter, only in general outline, and therein is the problem. The 70th week was fulfilled in every detail during 66-73 AD, so there is no legitimate reason to believe that it will be so fulfilled again in the End Times. Nothing like that has ever happened before, and don't presume it will happen now.

A great example of this is 

Antiochus IV Epiphanes, prototype of the antichrist

 

William: OK, good example. Now read Daniel 11:29 about AE's second and final invasion of Egypt:

 

“At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter."

 

Catch that? When the spirit-King of the North, acting through another human proxy, will invade Egypt in the End Times (Dan. 11:42-43), it shall not be like when AE invaded Egypt. So the prototype was only a general type of what will take place in our day, not the same thing; as are all prototypes.

...You call for a witnesses

 

 You have never provided 2 witnesses to support an End Time 70th week, because it doesn't exist.

I only need one Jesus himself.

The book of Daniel refers to the Abomination of desolation in four chapters, (Daniel 8:13, 9:27,11:30 and 12:11).  In each case, the abomination refers to the desecration of the Temple by placing an Idol, in the Most Holy, or Holy of holies.

 

William: Incorrect. Daniel refers to an AD two times, not four: 8:13 and 9:27 never use that term (and throw out your NIV for 9:27 on this one, people who use it, because it is repugnant to the original Hebrew).

            Jesus is talking about a future desecration at the end, corresponds to Daniel’s 70thweek, where the Temple sacrifice is stopped, and an abomination, that brings desolation is set up. This is a future not a past event. Perhaps you missed that clause in the prophecy?

 

William: False, as noted above. With respect to the 70th week, 9:27 says "on a wing/corner/extremity, abominations..." It says nothing about an abomination/idol in the Holy Place.

Now that we have that out the way let's deal with the multitudes in heaven but first we need to expose the fallacies within your man made theory.

THE FALLACY OF THE PREWRATH - EXPOSED

Rev 6:17 

For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?

Prewraths love this verse because they insinuate that the wrath of the Lord is about to come but it only starts once the seventh seal is broken.

The problem with this view is two fold

1. "Is come" is an aorist tense verb which according to greek grammar refers to an event that happened in the past and not future. Bit if a slight over look on that one, wouldn't you agree? 

The 6th seal is also based on Isaiah 2:10- 22. Isaiah describes what John saw. Isaiah was foretelling that "in that day" people will go hide themselves within  the day of the lord not before the day of the Lord. 

 

William: So close to getting it...

 

Aorist means "without time/horizon" -- the meaning can vary with the context. Most often it means past and continuing into the future, as it does here. You are exactly right when you say that this refers to Isaiah 2 (and many other OT and NT passages). The Day of the Lord comes when the Lord comes in glory to be see by everyone: "every eye will see him, even they who pierced him [= the dead!]." Rev. 1:7 And this is exactly what Isaiah 2 says:

 

19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks,

And into the caves of the earth,

From the terror of the LORD

And the glory of His majesty,  [here he is seen]

When He arises to shake the earth mightily.  [here is the earthquake]

 

All of this is precisely what Rev. 6:12-17 -- the 6th Seal -- speaks about. When the men say "hide us from the Face," it is because they have seen the Face of God! By the time they have seen it, the Day of the Lord is/has come -- past tense. But the Day of the Lord continues/aorist throughout the whole period of his wrath, at the least; some say it is the 7th 1000-year Day in toto.

2. If one believes the church will be on earth during Revelation 6:15-16, then one must ask why would it be necessary for men in Christ to hide from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb? Have we lost faith to fear God's wrath? Have we lost faith that we cant stand and endure God's wrath on sinner's?what a contradiction wecl Christians pose...we can talk the talk but fail to walk the walk.

 

William: Those of the Church who see Him and do not "turn away" (Heb. 12:25) from his Face will be caught up into his Presence. Those who turn away will not. Exactly the same scenario as at Mount Sinai (Ex. 19:18-21) -- which is precisely the comparison Paul is making in Heb. 12:18ff. People, please read those passages carefully.

[ARGOSY]

 

you appear to answer my post in generalised terms instead of dealing specifically with my points.

 

More specifically I did actually deal with your "differences in the accounts". I showed you that the Greek word in Rev 6 means "removed" and therefore does not in any way contradict the wording of Rev 16:20 which describes the mountains as "not found".  Removed/not found... this is a dramatic confirmation that we are referring to the same event, not a contradiction.

 

In addition I showed you the vast similarities between the two events,  your view requires that massive mountains are moved twice, people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice.  Really?   I'm glad the bible was written for simple people to understand, because intelligent people focus on the full range of possibilities. Simple people accept the obvious. In this case you are denying what is obvious.

 

The primary meaning of kineo means to move/be moved. Not be destroyed, which is what you try to force upon the context. A mountain can be moved/removed without being destroyed. Whereas mountains "not found" mean that they either totally disappear (one of the meanings of heurisko) or be so totally altered that they cannot be recognized as the same mountain. E.g. Zech 14:10 : "All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem."

 

Re: your last paragraph, I've said nothing about "people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice." You misrepresented me.

 

And remember, in the days of the Exodus, there were three earthquakes, and there were two great heavenly disruptions: the first when God descended upon Sinai, the second when God altered the course of the day, extending it substantially: 'Joshua's long day," Josh.10.

 

 

 

You say that :     A mountain can be moved/removed without being destroyed          

Maybe its possible that you can remove a mountain without destroying it ( hahaha thats quite funny ) , but that certainly doesn't support your original assertion that the two have to be mutually exclusive.  Just because you still think its possible that they can be different events, doesnt mean they HAVE TO BE different events which was what you were originally saying.

 

Re: your last paragraph, I've said nothing about "people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice." You misrepresented me.

 

 

I agree that you said nothing about people hide in caves twice, and the stars fall to earth twice, and the sun goes dark twice.   But I did not misrepresent you, I put forward scriptures in post 152 to support my position that all these events mentioned in Rev 6 are also mentioned elsewhere in the bible in a "day of the Lord" context.

 

This is the list I gave you in post 152 that I feel you have not yet dealt with:

 

The sun is darkened at the second coming  (Rev 9:2)

The heavens disappear with a roar at the second coming  (2 Peter 3)

People hide in caves on the day of the Lord (Isaiah 2:19)

The stars fall at the second coming (Matthew 24:29  Mark 13:25)

 

So its scripture that has these matching events, but the matching events of the bible do not occur before the second coming as per your own interpretation of Revelation 6, the matching events occur at the second coming according to the bible. You are welcome to analyse the matching events and try to convince me that in fact Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:25 occur before the second coming. I believe they occur at the second coming.  This is why I say your view requires that the stars fall twice, once at Rev 6, and again at the second coming according to Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:25

 

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,    and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

[firestormx]

WilliamL and Firestormx

 

 Maybe I missed it, if so I apologize. But wanted to add this to the conversation. 

 

Joel 2: 30-31

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 

These verses are what I wanted to add to the conversation.

Are they talking about the same thing Jesus is in Matt. 24:30?   YES

Is it talking about the 6th Seal?   YES

Did you notice it says this takes places BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord or the day of his wrath?   YES

Is Joel 2:30 -31 talking about Matt 24:30? No

Is it talking about the 6th seal? No

Did I notice it said before the great and terrible day of the Lord?   that depends because it's clear there are confusions on the broad sense of God's wrath and a narrow sense of God's wrath

Broad sense of God's wrath has a span over the tribulation, narrow sense is on a specific day.

Joel 2:10 mirrors the 6th seal, 

"Before them the earth quakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness" (Joel 2:10). What is interesting is that this is one characteristic of the day of the Lord itself and not a description of an event that precedes the day of the Lord. 

Consequently, even within the prophecy of Joel, not all cosmic-sign passages refer to events that must precede the coming wrath of God in the day of the LORD.

Further the problem you face will be handling the following in the book of Revelation which describe cosmic signs giving diminished light:

Rev. 8:12 (4th Trumpet) -- "And the fourth angel sounded, and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were smitten, so that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way."

Rev. 9:1-2 (5th Trumpet) -- "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

Rev. 16:8 (4th Bowl) -- "And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire."

 

They are the same instance in Joel, Matt. , Revelation and also in Luke 21 for that matter. Otherwise you need to prove that these 4 events all happen separately and I know you can't show 4 separate events that are almost exactly alike in scripture all in the end times. 

 

Unless of course you are saying they are different because they are described differently. Then you have a whole other problem. Because you see, if these are different events simply because a few adjectives are different, Well then Jesus Christ was crucified 4 times. All 4 accounts in the gospels of the Crucifixion  are slightly different. No 2 are described exactly alike because they are being retold by different people. I say Jesus was crucified 1 time and the differences are simply because of different people describing the same thing ( which happens a lot in the bible I might add ) . Likewise, all 4 events in Joel, Matt. Luke, and revelation are all the same thing just retold by different people.

 

Lastly the argument about Joel and the wrath of God is just weak. The context of the chapter and the verses clearly but this in the end times and it is clearly talking about the Wrath of God. In any other setting there would be no dispute that The " Day of the Lord " in context with the end times always means the day of God's wrath. If you have never done it, might I suggest a study on the phrase " Day of the Lord " . It is a very interesting study.

[stellab]

 

WilliamL and Firestormx

 

 Maybe I missed it, if so I apologize. But wanted to add this to the conversation. 

 

Joel 2: 30-31

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood,before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 

These verses are what I wanted to add to the conversation.

Are they talking about the same thing Jesus is in Matt. 24:30?   YES

Is it talking about the 6th Seal?   YES

Did you notice it says this takes places BEFORE the great and terrible day of the Lord or the day of his wrath?   YES

Is Joel 2:30 -31 talking about Matt 24:30? No

Is it talking about the 6th seal? No

Did I notice it said before the great and terrible day of the Lord?   that depends because it's clear there are confusions on the broad sense of God's wrath and a narrow sense of God's wrath

Broad sense of God's wrath has a span over the tribulation, narrow sense is on a specific day.

Joel 2:10 mirrors the 6th seal, 

"Before them the earth quakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and the moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness" (Joel 2:10). What is interesting is that this is one characteristic of the day of the Lord itself and not a description of an event that precedes the day of the Lord. 

Consequently, even within the prophecy of Joel, not all cosmic-sign passages refer to events that must precede the coming wrath of God in the day of the LORD.

Further the problem you face will be handling the following in the book of Revelation which describe cosmic signs giving diminished light:

Rev. 8:12 (4th Trumpet) -- "And the fourth angel sounded, and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were smitten, so that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way."

Rev. 9:1-2 (5th Trumpet) -- "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

Rev. 16:8 (4th Bowl) -- "And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire."

 

They are the same instance in Joel, Matt. , Revelation and also in Luke 21 for that matter. Otherwise you need to prove that these 4 events all happen separately and I know you can't show 4 separate events that are almost exactly alike in scripture all in the end times. 

 

Unless of course you are saying they are different because they are described differently. Then you have a whole other problem. Because you see, if these are different events simply because a few adjectives are different, Well then Jesus Christ was crucified 4 times. All 4 accounts in the gospels of the Crucifixion  are slightly different. No 2 are described exactly alike because they are being retold by different people. I say Jesus was crucified 1 time and the differences are simply because of different people describing the same thing ( which happens a lot in the bible I might add ) . Likewise, all 4 events in Joel, Matt. Luke, and revelation are all the same thing just retold by different people.

 

Lastly the argument about Joel and the wrath of God is just weak. The context of the chapter and the verses clearly but this in the end times and it is clearly talking about the Wrath of God. In any other setting there would be no dispute that The " Day of the Lord " in context with the end times always means the day of God's wrath. If you have never done it, might I suggest a study on the phrase " Day of the Lord " . It is a very interesting study.

 

Thanks for the message that touched my heart and soul

[stellab]

I pray that God almight should gibe the strenght and effort to move forward

[stellab]

The lord is my sheperd I shall not want

[stellab]

The Lord is always my provided