Pre-Tribulation Rapture: A Divine Imperative

[stellab]

My God will suplly our my needs

[stellab]

To God be the glory great things he has done

[firestormx]

Firestormx,

 

 Unless of course you are saying they are different because they are described differently. Then you have a whole other problem. Because you see, if these are different events simply because a few adjectives are different, Well then Jesus Christ was crucified 4 times. All 4 accounts in the gospels of the Crucifixion are slightly different. No 2 are described exactly alike because they are being retold by different people. I say Jesus was crucified 1 time and the differences are simply because of different people describing the same thing ( which happens a lot in the bible I might add ) . Likewise, all 4 events in Joel, Matt. Luke, and revelation are all the same thing just retold by different people.

Based on what you said why don't you also lump in the following with Matt, Luke and revelations

Rev. 8:12 (4th Trumpet) -- "And the fourth angel sounded, and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were smitten, so that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way."

Rev. 9:1-2 (5th Trumpet) -- "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

Rev. 16:8 (4th Bowl) -- "And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire."

If we going to go by your argument now  on cosmic signs then Rev 6, Rev 16:8, Rev 9:1-2, Rev18:12, joel Matt,  Luke , Peter is all describing the same event , unless of cause they are different? But interestingly enough you leave out Rev 16:8 & 9: 1-2 hmmm?  After all, different writers all describing the same thing right?

But your going to most likely argue with me now that Rev 16:8 & 9: 1-2 is not the same cosmic signs as joel, Matt, luke... Well exactly that's the point.

The same is true even if one limits the associations to the three passages Joel 2:30-31, Matthew 24:29, and Revelation 6:12. The sheer number of cosmic-sign events associated with the tribulation also highlights the question that must be raised. What keeps God from doing the same thing more than once? 

Perhaps try start with Joel 2:10, occurs within the day of the Lord itself rather than before the day of the Lord as the pre-wrath view requires. Thus, within one book, there is the possibility of multiple cosmic signs as separate events, which have the so-called diminished light 

Just as it can be seen in another book called revelations the possibility of multiple cosmic signs.

Like I said you wouldnt dare make the following the same event

Rev. 8:12 (4th Trumpet) -- "And the fourth angel sounded, and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were smitten, so that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way."

Rev. 9:1-2 (5th Trumpet) -- "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

Rev. 16:8 (4th Bowl) -- "And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire."

Now would you?

 Lastly the argument about Joel and the wrath of God is just weak. The context of the chapter and the verses clearly but this in the end times and it is clearly talking about the Wrath of God. In any other setting there would be no dispute that The " Day of the Lord " in context with the end times always means the day of God's wrath. If you have never done it, might I suggest a study on the phrase " Day of the Lord " . It is a very interesting study.

Thanks for the message that touched my heart and soul

Might I suggest and put it as an actual fact 

there is no consensus on the meaning and application of the term day of the Lord

Perhaps like I said there is a broad sense of the wrath of God, a heighten sense of the wrath of god and a narrow sense of the wrath of God....to  try and argue with me on this will be running round in circles and we left with just opinions..

 

I disagree with this position and see it as twisting the gospel to fit a certain position. 

 

P.S. The trumpets have a completely different theme to them and are not the same thing. Where as with Joel, Matt. , Luke and Rev. It's a debate about an adjective 

[firestormx]

Firestormx

 

I disagree with this position and see it as twisting the gospel to fit a certain position.

 

 

Of cause you would say that, anyone who doesn’t subscribe to the prewrath then would be twisting scriptures, the same could be said from pretribs and post tribs towards prewrath and each other, so this comment is rather pointless. Prewrath cant claim absolute truth on the matter, no more so than Pre tribs and post tribs, all three cant be correct. So really all your doing is giving an opinion that is hard to prove that its grounded in truth.

 

The trumpets have a completely different theme to them and are not the same thing.

 

 

Exactly, therefore within the book of Revelations you have multiple cosmic events, why cant the same be true for the number of scriptures of the cosmic events within in the book of Joel alone be multiple? What justifications do you have to lump it all together? Why dont you also lump 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the same cosmic event?

 

 

But nevertheless lets go with your approach and show how debunked prewrath is, including your position.

 

Joel 2:30-31 which says "And I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, blood, fire, and columns of smoke, the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes."

 

Then we have Joel 2:10  which says “They rush on the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter through the windows like a thief. Before them the earth quakes, The heavens tremble, The sun and the moon grow dark And the stars lose their brightness. 11The LORD utters His voice before His army; Surely His camp is very great, For strong is he who carries out His word. The day of the LORD is indeed great and very awesome, And who can endure it?”

 

• Joel 2:30-31 describes cosmic events that occur before the Day of the Lord
• Joel 2:10 describes cosmic events that occur during the day of the lord.

 

Now its clear as day that Joel 2:10 fits with the cosmic events of Seal 6, now if Joel 2:30-31 and Joel 2:10 are the same cosmic event, well you now left with a problem.

Joel 2:10 Says the cosmic events of the 6 seal occurs with in the Day of the Lord and Joel 2:30 -31 says before the day of the lord then 2:30 -31 is saying before the 6^th seal, your prewrath then must occur before the 6^th seal, since the 6^th seal is the day of the Lord according to Joel 2:10.  

 

Or

 

 

Because Joel 2:10 discribes the cosmic events of Seal 6 as being the day of the lord and Joel 2:30-31 as before the day of the lord, I am unaware of cosmic signs within the 5th seal

 

Or

 

Why cant Joel 2:30 -31 fit with the events of Rev. 9:1-2 (5th Trumpet) -- "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit."

 

Joel 2:30 - 31 says columns of smoke Rev 9:1-2 mentions smoke turned the sun dark

 

 

Lets deal with this one comment of yours

 

Well then Jesus Christ was crucified 4 times.

 

 

The same holds true you have Christ returning to earth during the 6^th seal, the returning back to heaven , then returning back to earth.

 

Now last time I checked when the disciples asked Christ for the signs of Christ return, there is nothing mentioned of the disciples asking Christ…So Jesus what is the signs of your seconding coming then returning to Heaven, then the signs of your third coming? After all Jesus wasn’t crucified multiple times?

 

Or are prewraths the only group barred from twisting scriptures?

 

Your argument of what constitutes the Day of Lord is a straw man fallacy, and the best approach and correct approach is to view the day of the Lord in broad sense and a narrow sense

I disagree with your position and if anything Joel 2:10 fits better with the trumpet description then the 6th seal.

[firestormx]

 

Firestormx

 

I disagree with your position and if anything Joel 2:10 fits better with the trumpet description then the 6th seal.

 

 

Now all of a sudden we start to recognize different cosmic events...makes this statement seem a little silly now

 

Unless of course you are saying they are different because they are described differently

 

 

I never said they was not different cosmic events in the end times. Only that the Joel, Matt. and Rev. ( and Luke ) events I was talking about were one and the same. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

[WilliamL]

 

William: Incorrect. Daniel refers to an AD two times, not four: 8:13 and 9:27 never use that term (and throw out your NIV for 9:27 on this one, people who use it, because it is repugnant to the original Hebrew).

William: False, as noted above. With respect to the 70th week, 9:27 says "on a wing/corner/extremity, abominations..." It says nothing about an abomination/idol in the Holy Place.

 

 

Yeh must be so repugnant that Jesus must of misunderstood Daniel then in Matt 24:15 and since the NIV is soooo repugnant lets use the KJB

 

King James Bible

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 

 

Interesting here we have Jesus who seems to be under the impression Daniel is referring to an AOD standing in the holy place? But then again I guess Jesus is wrong that we should understand him but rather we should take your word instead?

 

William's reply: Daniel 12:11 “And from the time the daily is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days."

 

This is the verse in Daniel that Jesus was quoting. He was not quoting Dan. 9, because the AD is not mentioned there. But it doesn't have to be there for my statement to be true. Your contention that the AD is mentioned in Dan. 9, and that Jesus quoted that passage, is patently false.

 

 

This is what you wrote in post 141, right?

 

 

The Wrath begins after the Elect are raptured out, immediately following the heavenly and earthly signs of the 6th Seal = Matt. 24:29 = Joel 2:30-31.

 

 

Now I want you to notice something, this is what you wrote

Most often it means past and continuing into the future

 

 

And this

 

All of this is precisely what Rev. 6:12-17 -- the 6th Seal -- speaks about. When the men say "hide us from the Face," it is because they have seen the Face of God! By the time they have seen it, the Day of the Lord is/has come -- past tense. But the Day of the Lord continues/aorist throughout the whole period of his wrath, at the least; some say it is the 7th 1000-year Day in toto.

 

 

 

The keyword is the arrival of Gods wrath.

 

Your fault lies in what your describing which is “just now” happening, on the boundary between the present and the future. Slight tight rope you have to walk, because if you have to acknowledge that opening of the 6th seal is Gods wrath which would make it past, your entire doctrine falls. ...

But I did not say that "the opening of the 6th Seal is God's Wrath." Once again you have misrepresented what I have said. I said -- read it above -- that "The Wrath begins after the Elect are raptured out, immediately following the heavenly and earthly signs of the 6th Seal..."

 

You are trying so hard to find fault with what I teach that you are not really thinking things out, and making any real attempt to understand what I say. You just keep shotgunning me with more questions and false accusations and insinuations. So this will be my last response to you on this string.

[WilliamL]

 

 

 

... In addition I showed you the vast similarities between the two events,  your view requires that massive mountains are moved twice, people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice.  Really?   I'm glad the bible was written for simple people to understand, because intelligent people focus on the full range of possibilities. Simple people accept the obvious. In this case you are denying what is obvious.

 

 

...Re: your last paragraph, I've said nothing about "people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice." You misrepresented me.

 

I agree that you said nothing about people hide in caves twice, and the stars fall to earth twice, and the sun goes dark twice.   But I did not misrepresent you, I put forward scriptures in post 152 to support my position that all these events mentioned in Rev 6 are also mentioned elsewhere in the bible in a "day of the Lord" context.

 

William's reply: You agree that I "said nothing about people hide in caves twice, etc.," but you did not represent me? This makes sense?

 

Sorry, but we are clearly unable to communicate intelligibly, so I'll sign off on this conversation also.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

... In addition I showed you the vast similarities between the two events,  your view requires that massive mountains are moved twice, people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice.  Really?   I'm glad the bible was written for simple people to understand, because intelligent people focus on the full range of possibilities. Simple people accept the obvious. In this case you are denying what is obvious.

 

 

...Re: your last paragraph, I've said nothing about "people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice." You misrepresented me.

 

I agree that you said nothing about people hide in caves twice, and the stars fall to earth twice, and the sun goes dark twice.   But I did not misrepresent you, I put forward scriptures in post 152 to support my position that all these events mentioned in Rev 6 are also mentioned elsewhere in the bible in a "day of the Lord" context.

 

William's reply: You agree that I "said nothing about people hide in caves twice, etc.," but you did not represent me? This makes sense?

 

Sorry, but we are clearly unable to communicate intelligibly, so I'll sign off on this conversation also.

 

 

 

In an earlier post I said :

"your view requires that massive mountains are moved twice, people hide in caves twice, the stars fall to earth twice, the sun goes dark twice, the heavens disappear twice. "

 

I'm not claiming you said that,  but I quoted actual bible verses that reveal that these events occur at the second coming. If you claim they also occur earlier at an earlier 6th seal, then  your view is requiring a repeated set of events if you take into account the verses that I quoted. For an intelligible exchange it would help if you then analysed the bible verses I quoted to see if in fact they are in a day of the Lord or second coming setting, or not.  Without discussing the actual bible verses that contradict your position, you are leaving your position undefended. I was hoping for a more intelligible defense of your position.

[bcbsr]

The Tribulation is a period of extreme distress – “great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people” with “men’s hearts failing them for fear” (Lk 21:23,26), but the Great Tribulation is unprecedented in the history of the world (Mt 24:21; Mk 13:19):  

 

Actually the verse from Mat 24 you alluded to explicitly puts the Rapture AFTER the tribulation. Matt 24:29-31 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

[Ezra]

The Tribulation is a period of extreme distress – “great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people” with “men’s hearts failing them for fear” (Lk 21:23,26), but the Great Tribulation is unprecedented in the history of the world (Mt 24:21; Mk 13:19):  

Actually the verse from Mat 24 you alluded to explicitly puts the Rapture AFTER the tribulation. Matt 24:29-31 

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Notice that here Christ sends His angels (plural) for the elect.  But at the Rapture He comes personally for the saints.  He descends from Heaven with a shout, and it is just one archangel who also shouts (1 Thess 4:16).  Therefore "the elect" in Mt 24:31 are the believing remnant of Israel after the Great Tribulation. 

 

Christ will gather all the Jews from around the world ("the four winds") and bring them to Israel to mourn, repent, and then be saved and restored to the kingdom of Israel.  The entire Olivet Discourse revolves around Israel, and the Temple, and Jerusalem.