Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[NConly]

23 hours ago, luigi said:

Yes, in Revelation 6:16-17 we see the worlds unjust peoples hiding themselves from the presence of the Lord, expecting the Lords wrath to come upon them. In the following chapter 7, we then see the myriads of saints who have gone through great tribulation and been killed, who are now in heaven.

Pre trib rapure has already removed the body of Christ before Rev 6. The saints you see are clearly Israel, 12 thousand from each tribe equal 144,000. Ch6:15 are unsaved Gentiles.Then in chap 7 some of the unjust Gentiles that go through the Tribulation will believe in Christ and be saved before the end. I see none of the body of Christ in ch 6 or ch 7 they left before ch 6.

See Ezk 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Verse 24 happened in 1948

Verse 25 is what Rev 7:4 speaks of

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

[luigi]

14 hours ago, NConly said:

Pre trib rapure has already removed the body of Christ before Rev 6. The saints you see are clearly Israel, 12 thousand from each tribe equal 144,000. Ch6:15 are unsaved Gentiles.Then in chap 7 some of the unjust Gentiles that go through the Tribulation will believe in Christ and be saved before the end. I see none of the body of Christ in ch 6 or ch 7 they left before ch 6.

See Ezk 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Verse 24 happened in 1948

Verse 25 is what Rev 7:4 speaks of

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Good day NConly,

There is only one return of the Lord where He rewards His saints and the just, while at the same time commencing His wrath on the beasts worshippers and the unjust (Revelation 11:18). 

Likewise there is only one gathering of His people from the four winds. And this gathering of His people comes following the great tribulation, expounded upon in the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27). And this gathering of His people from the four corners of the earth, are his saints, included among whom are the remnant surviving full blood just Jews at the end of the tribulation period; which is the one you posted about in Ezekiel 36:24-25.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

 

[WilliamL]

On 4/4/2024 at 7:40 PM, luigi said:

Yes, in Revelation 6:16-17 we see the worlds unjust peoples hiding themselves from the presence of the Lord, expecting the Lords wrath to come upon them. In the following chapter 7, we then see the myriads of saints who have gone through great tribulation and been killed, who are now in heaven.

Rev. 7 doesn't even HINT that these saints have all been killed. That is you adding a presumption to the Word.

On 4/4/2024 at 7:40 PM, luigi said:

At this point, Revelation chapter 8, goes into retrospect explaining the events leading to the events aforementioned.

Again, Rev. 8 doesn't even HINT that this passage is retrospective to chapter 6 and 7. The latter occur during the 6th Seal, whereas Rev. 8 picks up at the 7th Seal and the Trumpets. 7 does not precede 6, it follows 6.

Adding presumptions into the Word to support a case is nearly always a recipe for a false teaching.

 

[luigi]

19 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 7 doesn't even HINT that these saints have all been killed. That is you adding a presumption to the Word.

 

 

The Lord in Revelation 6:9, informs the dead in Christ to wait a little longer until their fellow servants and brethren in the Lord are to be killed as they were. So who do you think this uncountable multitude who are standing before Gods throne, who have gone through the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9 & 14), if they are not the additional brethren who are to be killed?

Revelation 6:9 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[luigi]

20 hours ago, WilliamL said:

 

Again, Rev. 8 doesn't even HINT that this passage is retrospective to chapter 6 and 7. The latter occur during the 6th Seal, whereas Rev. 8 picks up at the 7th Seal and the Trumpets. 7 does not precede 6, it follows 6.

Adding presumptions into the Word to support a case is nearly always a recipe for a false teaching.

 

In Revelation 7, all the faithful in Christ are in heaven; and as such, subsequent chapters in which the faithful in Christ are still on the earth, would be in retrospect to Revelation 7.

 

[farouk]

On 4/5/2024 at 8:57 PM, NConly said:

Pre trib rapure has already removed the body of Christ before Rev 6. The saints you see are clearly Israel, 12 thousand from each tribe equal 144,000. Ch6:15 are unsaved Gentiles.Then in chap 7 some of the unjust Gentiles that go through the Tribulation will believe in Christ and be saved before the end. I see none of the body of Christ in ch 6 or ch 7 they left before ch 6.

See Ezk 36

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Verse 24 happened in 1948

Verse 25 is what Rev 7:4 speaks of

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

@NConly I think it's helpful to understand whether Scripture is speaking about the church or about tribulation saints, etc. This helps make sense of aspects of the Lord's coming.

[WilliamL]

On 4/10/2024 at 10:22 AM, luigi said:

On 4/9/2024 at 2:20 PM, WilliamL said:

Rev. 7 doesn't even HINT that these saints have all been killed. That is you adding a presumption to the Word.

The Lord in Revelation 6:9, informs the dead in Christ to wait a little longer until their fellow servants and brethren in the Lord are to be killed as they were. So who do you think this uncountable multitude who are standing before Gods throne, who have gone through the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9 & 14), if they are not the additional brethren who are to be killed?

This multitude is all of the raptured elect. Not just the martyred ones.

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, 1) a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

1) If these were only martyred saints, then you are claiming that the number of marytred saints will vastly outnumber all the other raptured saints in history who never were martyred. Hardly likely.

2) Note what Jesus told His disciples in the Olivet discourse:

Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [in context, referring to the GT] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Escaping means not being martyred in the GT. Jesus says these escapees will stand before the heavenly throne and before the Lamb, just as Rev. 7:9 says they will.

[WilliamL]

On 4/10/2024 at 10:30 AM, luigi said:

In Revelation 7, all the faithful in Christ are in heaven; and as such, subsequent chapters in which the faithful in Christ are still on the earth, would be in retrospect to Revelation 7.

 

All the faithful in Christ are not in heaven at this time. The 144,000 Israelites will become faithful to Christ after they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven, but they will miss out on the rapture, because they will come to faith too late. So they will remain "on the earth." Rev. 7:1

God will always have faithful witnesses on earth to bear witness to the truth. Even during the time of His wrath.

[luigi]

22 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

This multitude is all of the raptured elect. Not just the martyred ones.

Rev. 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, 1) a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

1) If these were only martyred saints, then you are claiming that the number of marytred saints will vastly outnumber all the other raptured saints in history who never were martyred. Hardly likely.

2) Note what Jesus told His disciples in the Olivet discourse:

Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [in context, referring to the GT] that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Escaping means not being martyred in the GT. Jesus says these escapees will stand before the heavenly throne and before the Lamb, just as Rev. 7:9 says they will.

Whether the multitude is all the raptured saints, and not just the martyred ones; was not the point I was making, which was that the book of Revelation, and many other books of the bible, often stop at one point, and then follow in the next chapter in retrospect to a point prior to the matter previously described. With the saints all in heaven in Revelation 7; - Revelation 8, with the saints still on the earth would have to be in retrospect to a point prior to the saints all in heaven in Revelation 7.

Here is another easy one. In Revelation 14, we see the earth harvested of all its inhabitants. The first harvest is of the righteous, that some time afterward is followed by the harvest of the unrighteous who experience Gods wrath, with their blood flowing up to horses bridles. With the earth harvested, you would think this is the end; but then in Revelation 15, we where the seven vials of Gods wrath are being prepared to be poured out upon the beasts worshippers, thereby indicating Revelation 15, commencing again in retrospect to a point prior to the harvesting of the earth in Revelation 14.

This is very simple to see, I don't know why it's beyond your capacity to grasp.

[luigi]

30 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

All the faithful in Christ are not in heaven at this time. The 144,000 Israelites will become faithful to Christ after they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven, but they will miss out on the rapture, because they will come to faith too late. So they will remain "on the earth." Rev. 7:1

God will always have faithful witnesses on earth to bear witness to the truth. Even during the time of His wrath.

I see that you are delving off the main point, with your conjectures. Whether the Lord has faithful witnesses on earth to bear witness to the truth, even during the time of His wrath upon the beasts worshippers in Revelation 16, is not the point on retrospect I was making. If you wish to see the book of Revelation and other books of the bible as one straight forward story line, without any points in retrospect, that is up to you.