Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I never thought to call the end of the age, the return of Jesus, our redemption, the first resurrection and the beginning of our eternal life 'sideline issues'. Weird.

Yeah, I can believe that.  That is why many folks put stuff like this almost in the same category as the deity of Christ, the virgin birth, etc even though they are not.  That is generally why major divisions between Christians occur. 

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

But you feel free to generalize? I very much doubt you have talked to "most people in all eschatological camps" to know this is the truth. Why, oh why, can we not just stick with biblical fact?

The position is well held.  Go into any congregation and ask folks to explain what was really going on in Genesis 6 and how that relates to Yeshua's comments regarding "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be".   Many folks will usually give you that deer in the headlight look.   I not only talk with people in most eschatological camps, but I actually attend a congregation that has many folks who hold a wide range of eschatological positions.  One of them, I helped organize a community outreach program with a year ago, he thinks we are in the tribulation period right now.  I am solidly dispensational pre-trib.   I know people in mid, post, pre-wrath, etc.  

There was a lot more going on than eating and drinking and giving in marriage.  That alone would not be anything new.  That has been going on for the entire existence of man.  Why would the Lord destroy all of the earth with a flood except for 8 people because they were eating and drinking and giving in marriage?  The idea that you used that as your only proof text exhibits a myopic understanding of the depth of what was going on back then to cause YHVH to destroy the earth.

Who specifically were being "given in marriage" or rather, consummating relations in Genesis 6?  The bene ha Elohim and the daughters of men. The sons of men aren't even mentioned.   If we look at extra biblical accounts of this period, the "eating and drinking" has a more macabre meaning.  Cannibalism and drinking blood.  The Hebrew behind "perfect in his generations" regarding Noah has a more specific meaning of "perfect in his genetics".  The terms used for Noah in Genesis 6 is the same terms used of an unblemished sacrifice.  Genetically sound.    Noah was far from a perfect man in character and action.  See the post flood accounts of Noah.

Yeshua did not go into more detail because He didn't need to.  His Hebrew audience would have known exactly what He was talking about.   If one thinks that those disciples were just rubes that Yeshua grabbed up along the way, they do not understand the Hebrew 1st century culture.    Most Hebrew children could read and write Hebrew by age 5. they had the entire Torah memorized by age 10.  They understood the traditions and legends of their culture.  

And you think that my statement that most of the folks today in all eschatological camps are woefully ignorant of these ideas is generalization?  I am quite convinced the assertion is spot on.  

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

My point was; the hostile takeover occurred in Genesis 3, which condition will last until Rev 10 events begin and run their course. The King is coming to rectify the situation and put down the rebel leader whose foment led to the conditions extant.

If the hostile takeover occurred in Genesis 3, then how is the claim of Satan to Yeshua that he would give all the nations of the world to Him if He would bow down and worship Satan a real temptation?  Yet, scripture says that Satan was tempting Yeshua to sin.  Satan got the title deed to this world after Adam sinned.  The Lord and scripture recognizes that.  Yeshua has not claimed His ownership yet that He paid for with His act of redemption.   Even Psalms 110 brings that out.

Psalms 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”

Well, that hasn't happened yet.  Take a look at the daily news for confirmation.  And as of yet, I do not see Yeshua ruling from the holy hill of Zion per YHVH's statement in the Psalms, and in the authority of King David over the land, per the scripture and the affirmation by Gabriel when he visited Miriam to let her know she would be the mother of the Messiah.   And if Satan is locked up, his chain is too long.

Edited October 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

19 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

I see that what you claim is that has not support of Scripture. 

Far out.  We make the same claim about each other.  

[WilliamL]

On 10/27/2018 at 6:02 PM, OldCoot said:

The question then becomes, knowing that it will be the worse period of time in all history, why would Yeshua allow those He has already redeemed go thru that?  What would be the purpose?  To purify those He has redeemed?  Well such an assertion would imply that Yeshua's redemption was not enough to get the job done.  That is bordering on blasphemy, but at least an insult to YHVH.  At the very least it doesn't make sense in regard to those already redeemed.

Rev. 7:14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

1 Cor. 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

OC, you keep missing the principles expressed in the verses above, and others like them. We have had this discussion before.

There is a difference between redemption/salvation, a free gift of the Redeemer, and rewards that follow from the fruits of redemption, which rewards are granted according to works.

Washing one's own robe is a work of a believer, not a gift of God. A white robe/garment signifies righteous acts: "And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Rev. 19:8

One of the reasons God allows tribulation to come upon His people, and this will include the Great Tribulation, is to grant them a space to CLEAN UP THEIR ACT! before there is no more space for repentance, because "the night cometh, when no man can work" (John 9:4). 

[WilliamL]

On 10/24/2018 at 8:59 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Actually the Man child is not JESUS, he is Michael. 
Rev. 12:v.5 - And she brought forth A Man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:  (Hope that you will understand that the Word - God - is speaking of One, A Man Child, and this One is Michael (Dan.12:v.1-4) not of a group of man or multitudes. Hope that you will agree with the Word of God, as it is written)

Well then, if (for sake of discussion) Michael is a single man here being spoken of, who is the single woman-with-child being spoken of here who is his momma?

[OldCoot]

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 7:14 “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

1 Cor. 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

OC, you keep missing the principles expressed in the verses above, and others like them. We have had this discussion before.

No, I didn't miss anything.  You have just imposed more on the text than what was there.

For instance, while Revelation 7 does talk about those coming out of the GT period, it does not imply that the redeemed up to the start of the GT period ever went into the GT and are the ones coming out.  It just says "those who come out" which can be those who turned to Yeshua when they saw these things start.  You have implied the redeemed before the GT starts go into it, the text never did.  And that assertion flies in the face of many OT and NT passages that suggest the redeemed are hidden and protected from that time.  Examples in the OT.... Isaiah 26:19-21, Zephaniah 2:3, and Psalms 27:5 with the latter a clear reference to the time as espoused by Jeremiah 30.  Isaiah 26:20 is referenced by Yeshua comments in John 14:2.   Makes sense.  Yeshua was quite fond of referencing Isaiah more than any other book.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 you posted, it is in the context of 2 Corinthians 5:10... the judgement seat of Christ, more specifically, the Bema seat judgement which determines works and rewards.  The Greek "bema" is used, which is the same term used of the judgement seat at sports games and such.  It is a judgement of rewards for faithful service.  Works that don't pass the test will be burned up.  And it is clear in 1 Corinthians 3:15 that you posted, that even if one's works amount to nothing and are burned up, that person still is considered saved or redeemed.  Again, there is no reasonable purpose for the redeemed to go thru the GT period.

In neither passage does it say that the redeemed up to this period starts go thru the GT period.   We are saved by grace thru faith, not of works, lest any man boast.  To suggest that those who are already redeemed up to the start of the GT period have to go thru it amounts to essentially a "protestant purgatory" and is counter to scripture... both OT and NT, and it sure is counter to Paul's statement about "comfort one another with these words" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, which are in the same context of the GT period.

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by OldCoot
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[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

What WILL make the great tribulation,  THE WORST EVER,  will be the comprehensive scope of those affected and not the individual tribulations that men will experience.   Tell me,  what tribulations might we  exempt us from that day coming upon the people of God? Death coming slowly or quickly? torture by flame or sword? Jail or prison?  Alone or amongst many? missiles or bullets?  Tell me,  what are we exempt from?  

 

It is a poor analogy.  The tribulations we endure now are not even in the same league with what is coming upon the earth in the future.  We experience only the "leaks" of Evil that gets past the Holy Spirit who is restraining now.  But when the HS steps aside and the full force of Evil comes upon the earth, that is not intended for those that are redeemed up to that point.   The Lord will intentionally loose the restraint on evil to cause it to go forth and execute His judgement on the unbelieving world.  Yeshua said that time, nothing like it has ever come before it.  All the stuff up to that point is a joke compared to the evil that will be unleashed then.  Yeshua said men would even have heart attacks over what is coming.  

Even the same sort of bizarre stuff in Genesis 6 with giants and such will happen again.  Yeshua said so.   Isaiah 13:3 says it also.  Not so much in the English, but in the Hebrew and in the Septuagint it is quite clear.  The context is the latter days, the time of Jacob's trouble, the GT.  Here is the English of the Septuigant....

Isaiah 13:3 (NETS) It is I who instruct, and I lead them;
 and it is I who summon them.
Mighty ones come to fulfill my wrath,
at the same time rejoicing and reviling.

"Mighty ones" is the same Hebrew "gibbor" that is used in Genesis 6, used of the Nephilim or offspring of the bizarre union of fallen angels and human women.  The NASB brings out somewhat the same allusion as the Septuagint.  And if one studies these things in depth, the idea that these Giants were also cannibals is not out of line.  How many tribulations do believers deal with now where a 15 foot giant grabs them up and rips off a limb and eats it and drinks their blood?  All the ancient Hebrew literature describes this as what these "mighty ones" were all about.  We have lived such a sheltered existence thanks to the Holy Spirit and it has made many of us Biblically myopic in many ways.

Do a in depth study of what Yeshua meant when He said about the days of Noah regarding eating and drinking. The nuances of the original language suggest ripping and tearing of flesh and drinking blood.  Not quite the same as a nice dinner party over at the neighbor's house.

The GT period is unlike what could be considered tribulation now.  It is tribulation that will be directed by God Himself.  So while evil is the source of tribulation now, it is not the intention of God, but allowed in some respects.  But in the GT period, the tribulation that will be unleashed by evil will be under the direction of God, fully intended to execute His judgement upon the entire world that has rejected Yeshua.

And being that the massive tribulations that will come upon the earth are at the direction of YHVH, how is it again that the redeemed before this starts need to go thru it?  They have been already purchased by the shed blood of His Son.  They have not rejected Him.  Why would He then subject them to tribulations that He is directing against a world that does reject Yeshua?

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

Well, wrath comes upon the whole world, not just the Jews.  And so what if it starts with Israel first.  That really has little meaning in the broad picture.  The whole world will be enveloped by the goings on.

Still, what is the purpose?  I terms of Hosea, it is to drive the Israel to the wall an realize their screw up in rejecting Yeshua and as a corporate body turn to Him and petition for His return.  He is not going to return until then as per Yeshua's comments in Hosea and Matthew.  So while they will indeed be getting a 2x4 along side their head to wake them up, Israel as a corporate entity will be rescued in the end.  Jeremiah and others expound on that point in many passages.

And your points do not negate in any way my post you quoted.  Actually, your statements have nothing to do with what I was talking about in that post.   I fully acknowledge that period involves the righteous judgement of God, but I merely addressed just one aspect on how that is going to be delivered. 

30 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

I have gone over this with you before.   When indignation, wrath,  tribulation and anguish comes upon the Jews,  that those who are seeking for glory,  honor and immortality,  to have patient continuance (G5281,hupomone) in well doing.  I have also shown you that hupomone is to persevere with faith thru even the greatest trials and suffering.   Here is a scriptural demonstration of hupomone: 

No, you have asserted something that is not in the context of what is  being discussed.  I have stated that there is nothing in the text of Revelation (or any other book for that matter) that says those coming out of the tribulation in Revelation were redeemed believers who went in to the GT period.  You and others have imposed that idea on the text.  Sure, there are those who come out of the GT period, but they are those who turned to Yeshua during that period, not before it.  All of Israel that makes it thru that period will turn to Yeshua and many of Israel who die during that period will likely turn to Yeshua.  Along with many gentiles.   

The OT is replete with passages that the righteous are hidden/protected from the calamities that are coming on the earth during the end time GT period, also known as the Day of the Lord, Time of Jacob's Trouble, etc, before those calamities start.  The rapture was indeed a mystery that Paul was allowed to bring out, but while the details of how the righteous are hidden/protected was a mystery, the concept of them being hidden/protected during that time was not and is expounded on in many passages of the OT.

Sure, we are to persevere in the tribulations we endure now, but 2 Thessalonians 1:4 is present tense and not future tense, as in pointing to the GT period.  Likewise, it precedes 2 Thessalonians 2 which the context is clearly laid out in verse 1 of that chapter. Our gathering to the Lord.    Nowhere does Paul make reference that we must endure thru the Great Tribulation.  You are taking Paul's statements out of context and applying them to fit a misconception.

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by OldCoot

[WilliamL]

On 10/30/2018 at 7:49 AM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

On 10/29/2018 at 11:08 AM, WilliamL said:

Well then, if (for sake of discussion) Michael is a single man here being spoken of, who is the single woman-with-child being spoken of here who is his momma?

Do not you know?  His mother is the woman which went to the wilderness, even into her place...

Actually, the Woman is my mother and the mother of all true Christians or true believers.

So then, who exactly is she. You really have just dodged the question. You say that her son, the male child, is a single man, Michael, whom scripture tells us is actually an archangel. (Jude 1:9) What then is the name of Michael's mother?

And how do you figure that Michael is both an archangel and a man?

[WilliamL]

On 10/29/2018 at 2:50 PM, OldCoot said:

You have implied the redeemed before the GT starts go into it, the text never did.  And that assertion flies in the face of many OT and NT passages that suggest the redeemed are hidden and protected from that time. ... To suggest that those who are already redeemed up to the start of the GT period have to go thru it amounts to essentially a "protestant purgatory" and is counter to scripture... both OT and NT...

Quite the contrary. The Great Tribulation will effect the whole world. One of the OT types was the Exodus. The Israelites escaped into the wilderness, just as the woman of Rev. 12 and her offspring. Egypt was devastated already, and that devastation only became worse for the ones remaining in it after the deaths most of their men in the Red Sea. But the Israelites in the wilderness, though protected by God, still went through great trials of their own, before the LORD descended in fire and smoke and quake and blowing shofar upon Mount Sinai, and called up his elect into his Presence.

The exact same scenario will take place in the End Times. The Exodus was a type and shadow thereof. God's people will escape a world order that will be collapsing into chaos (as did Egypt), but they still will go through their own wilderness trials before the Lord descends in fire and smoke and quake and blowing shofar, to call up his elect upon heavenly Mount Zion. This is Paul's message to the End Time Church in Hebrews 12:18-28. Whether or not you choose to believe it is up to you.

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 10/29/2018 at 9:28 PM, OldCoot said:

The GT period is unlike what could be considered tribulation now.  It is tribulation that will be directed by God Himself.

Not a single Bible verse testifies to the second sentence.