Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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  while the events the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age

So satan isnt responsible for this?

Of course Satan is responsible! But for those that think the seals are a part of God's judgment in the 70th week, they must then conclude that God's judgment caused these murders.  No, Satan was a murderer from the beginning. The 5th is is in no possible way a part of God's judgment.

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

Based on a faulty premise John does not state the great multitude in Rev 7 is a once off sudden event, nor in the context does it indicate the multitude have been raptured. The language is very clear in John viewing this event as a continous action. A parentheses of seal 5.

And with preconceived glasses you probably will never get it. There is no faulty premise. They were NOT THERE in the throne room in chapter 4. John is in the throne room when the Beast's say "come and see." The way this is written tells us this huge crowd too large to number just arrived. You have convinced me it is a continual action verb. I think this continuous action is that others will follow. Soon (around the midpoint) the 144,000 will follow. And soon after that, the martyrs of the Beast will follow. There is absolutely not connection to seal 5 except in imagination. there is not one hint that these are martyrs. WHERE exactly are those martyrs seen at seal 5? 

By the way, in Matthew 24:30, "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven"  Isn't this the very same present participle verb as "came out of great tribulation?" 

 

Edited July 22, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

All seals are already opened otherwise pray tell how do you know whats in them? The actions have not happened.

it is a very good question: but the answer is very simple: God knows what is inside, and revealed it vision form to John, and then John to us. God does not need to break all the seals to know what is written inside.

However, we are still waiting on the 6th seal to be opened, for when it is opened, those left behind will be in the Day of the Lord.

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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 finally I can somewhat agree: after the man of sin is revealed, having entered the temple and declared he is God, then, he will begin to wage war. But chapter 12 is speaking of Satan, not of the man of sin. After the man of sin declares he is God, He will become possessed by Satan, and then what Satan does he will do. Satan goes after the remnant of the woman's seed. But He will use the man of sin turned Beast to do it.

Which occurs at the 5th seal confirmed by Rev 7, hence we have so many dead martyrs 

Why do you imagine the ONLY MARTYRS around must be 70th week martyrs. Was Stephen a 70th week martyr? NOT A CHANCE. Almost 2000 years have gone by. You seem to imagine this was all written yesterday and 2000 years have not passed.  And you are really pulling seal 5 out of its context, just as you do with seals 1-4. I will tell you what Jesus told me: "until you can answer these questions correctly you will NEVER understand this part of John's vision."  Remember, He has asked me three questions about chapters 4 & 5, and I could not answer them  at all, much less correctly. You are in the same boat: YOU cannot answer them correctly - so your timing is 2000 years off. Where do you imagine 2000 years between any of these verses? It is simply NOT THERE.  (You have made no attempt to answer His three questions. In fact, it seems you scoff at His questions.)

John pinpoints an exact moment in time, when Jesus ascends and sends the Holy Spirit down. The FIRST HINT of the 2000 years that has passed is found at the 5th seal. They want to know how long it will be until judgment begins. They are told they must wait for the very last martyr.

Just as we are waiting on the last Gentile to come in, we are waiting on the last martyr.  No one knows either number. God knows.

How would Stephen or any of those Paul put to death know how long it would be before the Day of the Lord would come? They had no idea. On the other hand, martyrs of the 70th week WOULD KNOW: just wait to the end of the 7 years. Sorry, your theory makes no sense. They did not know - 70th week martyrs would know.

So absolutely NOT! It does NOT happen at the 5th seal. The 5th seal will continue with church age martyrs dying until the rapture CLOSES THE DOOR to the church age. (that is the day those under the altar are waiting for.) After the church age closes with the pretrib rapture, the Day of the Lord begins instantly. Any martyr after this will be Day of the Lord martyrs - a totally different group of people. There is much TIME between the 5th seal - going since the first church age martyr - and chapter 12, which is CLEARLY after the midpoint of the week.  Your timing is very mixed up. But then, you seem to imagine John wrote it wrong.

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

Of cause you denying Christ authority, when Christ begins to reign, what exactly do you think he is going to do? " time to judge the dead" .....

Since this is an inconvenient truth, a) Christ begins to reign at the 7th trumpet, b) time to judge the dead....you now remove Christ authority over to the GWT which is conducted by GOD the Father instead.

The only excuse Im waiting to hear now is Christ doesnt start reigning in the 7th trumpet

Revelation 11:17

Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

 

This is absolute truth. We know that the rulership of the kingdoms of earth change: take from Satan and given to Jesus Christ.

But another truth: one of the FIRST THINGS Jesus will do - is grant 42 months of authority to the Beast, and of course to Satan behind the Beast.  You don't have the authority to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory! John and the Holy Spirit put chapters 12-18 in between the 7th trumpet and His coming. People that refuse to rearrange see this very clearly. 

 

Another thing He will be doing is protection those who fled. I am sure He will find other things to do as He reigns.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Have you ever considered the possibility that the trump of God, the last trumpet, happens just after the seventh angel sounds?

Try as I might, I cannot find any kind of gathering anywhere before or after the 7th trumpet. But I do see a huge crowd, too large to number in chapter 6, I read that Paul placed his gathering just a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord, and I see that Day beginning at the 6th seal. I can't imagine why people imagine Paul's gathering should be at the 7th trumpet. I cannot even find any kind of kind of coming at the 7th trumpet, yet Paul tells us his gathering will be a coming - just not to the earth.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'm pretty sure I know what "finished" means.  I'll stick with what the scriptures say.  Seventh trumpet = finished.  Simple.

ia m sure you know what "finished" means, but it is for certain the 42 months or authority is not finished. It is for certain the 1260 days of testifying and fleeing is not finished. It is for sure the 42 months of trampling and authority is not finished. It is for sure TIME has not finished: there is a thousand years to go. So just what is "finished?" What is this Mystery? Paul talked of the mystery of "Christ in us, the hope of glory." But that is not finished at the 7th trumpet. There is the mystery of Christ in the Gentiles, but is that finished?

There is only ONE THING I can figure that will be finished at the 7th trumpet, and that is the reign of Satan as the god of this present world. Now THAT will finish at the 7th trumpet.  It must be a mystery still because most of the world has NO IDEA that Satan is the god of this world. 

So it is not so simple as you might imagine. The church does not end at the 7th trumpet. But you know what does end: Satan's reign on earth.  So why attempt to conger up something else when the answer is already plainly written?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

 

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 and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary:  Most commentators agree this is a reference to Titus and the Roman soldiers. In other words, Daniel quit writing of the Messiah and switched to another prince. It works for me. I think this is the intended meaning. We know from history that this is how Jerusalem was destroyed.

Unfortunately most commentators are not Roman historians by profession. The legions that made up the roman army were axillary forces. Axillary forces were not considered roman citizens.

The best way to illustrate this, is the US lead army against Isis, the kurds and syrians are not american citizens, nor could they be called President Trumps people.

Like wise the axillary forces were not Titus people.

And finally I actually asked for scripture that states an antichrist signs a covenant with many.

Does it really matter the birth place of those who tore down the blocks of the temple? Does it matter if they were slaves forced to be soldiers, or actual Roman citizens? History tells us it happened. And Daniel tells us that it was the people of the prince that came. Did Jesus destroy the city? Did He destroy the temple? No, it was the armies directed by Titus. You can argue till the cows come home, but you cannot alter history.  Since these events were NOT done by Jesus, we can know with certainty that John switched from talking about Jesus to talking about a different prince.

It is the very same "he" that confirms the covenant. Since Jesus did not send people to destroy the city and the temple, it is not Jesus as the "he" that confirms the covenant.

...the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;...And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease

This is all the very same "he" or language rules mean nothing.  If the "he" that causes the sacrifices to cease is Jesus, then it is Jesus who destroys the temple and the city.  It is no wonder then that most commentators tell us it is a different prince than Jesus.

If you wish to go against a normal reading and against most of the commentators with your theory, you certain can.

It is the HE that confirms a covenant. It is the same he that came against the city and destroyed it.

There is your answer. Take off your preconceptions and believe it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

John did not TELL US the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, but you can determine that through study. Compare what Jesus said about fleeing into the wilderness with 12:6 when we see them beginning to flee. 12:6 would be a second or two after the abomination. Give them a second or two for response time. 

Do you have any idea what this mystery is that is finished?

Apparently absurdity has no limits.

The rest of us here really don't care if you believe scripture or not. We choose to believe. You think absurd only believe you don't believe what is written.  It is absolute truth that Jesus told those living in Judea to flee when they see the abomination. If you imagine that abomination is history, fine. We choose to believe the truth: that it is still future.

[iamlamad]

On 7/21/2017 at 10:29 AM, fixerupper said:

It just stikes me odd that the resurrection of the dead and gathering would come at the sound of a Jewish trumpet, a religion that denies the Christ anyway.

Does it strike you odd that Jesus was a Jew? Does it strike you odd that Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts during His first coming?

These things don't strike me odd: they are truth.

I know the truth of the pretrib rapture looks odd to you too. All I can say is, when you are left behind, then you will know it was truth all along.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

Then lets hear you confess Jesus.  Lots of people say they are born again. Not the test, confess Jesus. Buddhists pray. Muslims pray. Satanists pray. Not the test. Might be the wrong Jesus if you aren't careful. Sound doctrine is an understanding of the concepts by the Spirit. Here's where you are; 2 Cor, "6 for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." You think what is written is truth when the Spirit is the life of all scripture. A far different thing than paragraphs and punctuation and word study. "Correct viewpoint"? By whose standard? And in what arena? You are opposed in this in a steadfast manner.

How about a correct viewpoint ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. God was not just wasting time causing prophets to write. His purpose was for us to KNOW. What was the first point Jesus made in answering the questions the disciples asked about the end? Take heed that no man deceive you. Yet we have different opinions on almost every end time verse. The truth then is, SOMEONE is deceived. 

OF COURSE you don't think it is you. But when the time comes, we will all know.

[fixerupper]

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How about a correct viewpoint ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE. God was not just wasting time causing prophets to write.

I KNOW.  AND THE VIEWPOINT OF CHRISTIANITY'S GREATEST PROPHET JESUS CHRIST SAID,
Immediately after the tribulation of those days....then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:....and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.....And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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His purpose was for us to KNOW. 

AND JESUS WORDS AREN'T CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU TO KNOW?  If you believe that, "His purpose was for us to KNOW.," then you should also believe that Jesus said AFTER THE TRIBULATION his elect is gathered...You should also believe that the word 'elect' is used to indicate CHRISTIANS in the NT and NOT ONCE is it used to indicate Jews, IF your purpose is for you to know the Word of God.
ELECT...
picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.

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What was the first point Jesus made in answering the questions the disciples asked about the end? Take heed that no man deceive you.

And you haven't paid attention and you've been deceived!  Jesus says Christians, you say Jews!  Jesus says immediately after the tribulation, you say before!

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Yet we have different opinions on almost every end time verse. The truth then is, SOMEONE is deceived. 

Yes.  Someone is deceived.  Someone is deceived into perverting the words of Jesus to uphold the pipe dream of a deceitful doctrine!

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OF COURSE you don't think it is you. But when the time comes, we will all know.

Oh we know it's you who is deceived.  You're the only ones going against the words of Jesus.

You will never know when your time comes.  To a pre-tribber, if there's no rapture, there's no tribulation and no false prophet or man of sin.  The big question is, "how long will pre-tribbers remain in denial when the world goes bad and is launched into tribulation and you're all still here? 
A time is coming soon where the world as we know it will never be the same. 

[n2thelight]

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Edited July 23, 2017 by n2thelight