JohnD Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Convoluted?Don't you mean scriptural?Complicated?Don't you mean not what you prefer to believe?Taking God at his word is the simplest KISS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Which saints? We have the saints within the Church (already raptured), and we also have Tribulation Saints (who will all be beheaded -- Rev 20:4). Â Are you saying that the rapture has already happened?What I am saying is that (a) in relation to the Tribulation, the Rapture has already happened and (b) if all the saints including the whole Church on earth goes through the Tribulation, then ALLÂ the saints would be beheaded (whether it is in the middle of the 70th week is immaterial). Â Since that is not supported by Scripture, the Tribulation Saints are a separate group on whom the Antichrist makes war and kills them, and they are then resurrected prior to the Millennium.Okay, since you used choice words on my posts, I'll ask you to back with scripture where is it you believe the Church will be raptured out before the tribulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2015  Okay, since you used choice words on my posts, I'll ask you to back with scripture where is it you believe the Church will be raptured out before the tribulation?1 Thessalonians 5:1-111 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.WHERE'S THE COMFORT IN KNOWING THAT THEY ALL WOULD BE BEHEADED?  Hence we have this Scripture also (Rev 3:10):Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2015 1 Thessalonians 5:9Â 9Â For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 God did not appoint us for HIS wrath. Agreed.But the Church for the most part for 1900+ years has been under the wrath / persecution of the world and the evil one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 905 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,646 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,832 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 I still see no (traditional) pre-tribulation scripture passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2015 Pre-Great-Tribulation AND Mid-70th Week of Daniel AND Post-Believer's-Tribulation.This is awfully convoluted and complicated.  And since God is NOT complicated (hence the "simplicity of Christ), you might have to un-complicate things for yourself. The K-I-S-S principle is always valid.I had to laugh at the irony of this coming from someone who supports the heavily nuanced tap dance known as the pre-trib rapture.What is plainly and directly stated in scripture is that the rapture happens:at Christ's comingat the last trumpetright after the resurrectionon the last dayon the day of the Lordlike a thiefafter the armies have gathered for ArmageddonIf you really wanted to keep it simple, you'd go with this because this is what the scriptures plainly state. If you want me to post the scriptural support again, I'd be happy to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2015 God did not appoint us for HIS wrath. Agreed.But the Church for the most part for 1900+ years has been under the wrath / persecution of the world and the evil one. True. In this world we will have tribulation. Its a hallmark of the pretribbers to try and paint the entire end times as wrath so they can play the 1 Thess 5:9 card. They try to use the terms "tribulation" and "wrath" interchangeably as indicated by "tribulation saints" in an effort to support the notion. Why not call them the "wrath saints" if it is indeed the time of God's wrath? My guess is because that sounds a bit too conflicted but that is what they are putting forth. If they called them "wrath saints" then they'd have trouble with 1 Thess 5:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 27, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2015  Okay, since you used choice words on my posts, I'll ask you to back with scripture where is it you believe the Church will be raptured out before the tribulation? 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.WHERE'S THE COMFORT IN KNOWING THAT THEY ALL WOULD BE BEHEADED?  Hence we have this Scripture also (Rev 3:10):Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.  You really should put forth the effort to make the distinction between tribulation and wrath.Our comfort is in the blessed hope which is when our salvation, our eternal life, is fully realized when we are raised immortal so we can live together with Him forever. Be sure to read v10 too.Being kept from the hour of temptation speaks of the rapture? You should keep it simple and go with what is plainly stated.Believers should never feel threatened by death. If we present ourselves as a daily living sacrifice to God as our spiritual worship of Him, giving our natural life for Him will come....naturally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted August 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2015  What is plainly and directly stated in scripture is that the rapture happens (AS MODIFIED):at Christ's coming  -- FOR HIS SAINTS, NOT WITH HIS SAINTSat the last trumpet -- FOR HIS SAINTS, NOT FOR THE JUDGEMENTSright after the resurrection -- OF THE MAIN HARVESTon the last day -- FOR THE CHURCH ON EARTHon the day of the Lord -- BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORDlike a thief -- AS FAR AS THE WORLD IS CONCERNEDafter the armies have gathered for Armageddon -- LONG BEFORE THAT. THIS IS WHEN THE LORD COMES WITH HIS SAINTSThe "last day" is a metaphor for a period of time extending for at least 1,000 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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