The Two Witnesses

[FresnoJoe]

This is a hard one for I have the same idea of the two on the mount of transfiguration, that was my thought , but is it really two physical men or a symbolic vision of the law of moses and the spirit of truth grace, for at once I followed everyone but we may be looking for something that is a medifore, I am open to help on this ,but I believe that it is not what we really all are made to believe? and needs more research.or has this already been carried out prior to our generation?

 

~

 

Retrobyter said in post 9:

 

No, these two witnesses are INDIVIDUALS, not sections of the Bible.

 

That's right.

 

For they are simply 2 individual prophets who will eventually be martyred, and their 2 dead bodies will lie unburied in a street in Jerusalem for 3.5 literal days (Revelation 11:8-12).

 

 

Amen~!

 

Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

 

But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. Revelation 11:8-12 (NIV)

[Rev2015]

I also believe Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses. I have a tendency to believe their 1260 days in sack cloth are the first 3 1/2 years of the covenant with many. I believe they will be protesting the daily sacrifice being implemented when the temple is rebuilt. I believe the antichrist is allowed to kill them as he arrives there to commit the A.O.D. To sit on the earthly seat of God and proclaim himself god. I am sure when the antichrist is about to arrive at the temple mount the two witnesses are sure to be very vocal about the matter. Another reason is, if there are only 1260 days to each half of the covenant with many. Scripture indicates the two witnesses are left in the streets for 3 1/2 days. If the last 3 1/2 years ends at 1260 days, then the witnesses would still be in the streets several days after Christ returns. Also consider if Christ has returned, why does the voice from heaven tell them to come up hither. It'd seem they wouldn't need to if Christ were already on the earth. I believe the covenant with many will be implemented on a future Day of Atonement (fall feast). The Jews will see the one they pierced and mourn, I believe this to be a reference to the Day of Atonement this is a day of mourning for the Jews. So if Christ returns on a future Day of Atonement, backing up 7 years places the covenant with many as being implemented at that time also.This places the mid point of the covenant during the spring (Easter). If the witnesses are killed just as Christ was during the spring feast, they'd be raised 3 1/2 days after death just like Christ, during what we call Easter.

 

Knowing that Christ was raised from the dead, and many were led to believe his body was taken to make it appear he had risen, may be the reason the witnesses's bodies are left in the streets and not buried, fearing their followers would take their bodies and claim they had risen as with Christ. God's plan however will rule that day, and when the witnesses rise up and stand, dusting themselves off, I believe the look on the faces of those celebrating and exchanging gifts would be a priceless site to behold. Anyway, just thought I give a reason for my beliefs on the matter.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Rev2015

[Bible2]

Rev2015 said in post 12:

 

I have a tendency to believe their 1260 days in sack cloth are the first 3 1/2 years of the covenant with many.

 

The 2 witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That is why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues which they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

 

Rev2015 said in post 12:

 

Scripture indicates the two witnesses are left in the streets for 3 1/2 days. If the last 3 1/2 years ends at 1260 days, then the witnesses would still be in the streets several days after Christ returns.

 

Note that the 2 witnesses could start prophesying 3.5 days before the 1,260 days of the Antichrist, and that Christ may not return for 75 days after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist.

 

For Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

 

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

[Sister]

Maybe there is a symbolic need for witnesses or even in court you need two witnesses to prove something. when two people prove something it becomes more plausible.

That's right San

Deuteronomy 19:15   One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
 

[mevosper]

Two Witnesses

Law and the Prophets

Amen! Brother. 

Ever since being raised in a church, I have been taught there were 2 portions to the Bible: Old Testament, New Testament. It wasn't until later on in life that I learned how Jews viewed the bible. To them, there is no New Testament. 

Torah, from what I know now, could be wrapped up in the first 5 books 

Shalom, Joshua-777.

 

Two Witnesses

Law and the Prophets

What about the “Ketuviym?” The “Writings?” The reason why the Jews call the Old Testament the TANAKH is because it is an acronym for “Torah Navi`iym Ketuviym.” (Tav-Nun-Kaf or T-N-K, and the “Kaf” at the end of a word is always the Khaf-Sofit or Kh sound, like the hard, guttural Ch in German as in “reich.”) The “Torah” is what Christians have called the “Law” for generations; the “Navi’iym" are the “Prophets.” So where are the “Ketuviym?” Would they be a “witness,” too?

 

No, these two witnesses are INDIVIDUALS, not sections of the Bible.

The "My Jewish Learning" site talks about the 3 parts of the the "Tanakh". What I found interesting is the site's take on the "Ketuvim" (http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ketuvim-writings/):

Unlike the Torah and the books of Prophets (Nevi’im), the works found in Ketuvim do not present themselves as the fruits of direct divine inspiration. (Daniel is the one exception.) What makes books like Psalms and Job so remarkable is their humanity, the “I” who dares to voice questions and doubts about God in the face of danger or suffering. Ultimately, each of the Ketuvim affirms a hard-won commitment to God and covenant. Without divine miracles or national glory, there were only the words of Torah and Prophets to hold onto, proven reliable by Israel’s difficult history and carried forward by people of wisdom.

So, to answer your question, no, "Ketuviym" do not represent witnesses as they apparently are not "fruits of direct divine inspiration".  

Christ said the Law and the Prophets were until John (Luke 11:13, 16:16). At that time, John was beheaded, putting a "period", an end (as it were), to the law and the prophets. 

[ezekiel]

Is it possible that when Christ said yea must be witnesses he was speaking about this rather about us. Is it possible that when God talked about a tree he was speaking about a nation, Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation. Is it possible that with two witnesses the truth is made Ezekiel talks about a nation being a tree and also in Daniel. Is it possible that when Christ cursed the fig tree that he was saying that it will no longer bear fruit rather that nation. Is it possible the oil is with the olive tree that Christ has made. Is it possible that the two are nations and not just two people. Is it possible that their testimony may be over and no longer are the arm of God. Is it possible that American has all the attributes of the two. I can say from my understanding they are two nations with no doubt.