PRE-TOJT Catching Away

[Sister]

Bible 2

 

Thank you for backing up.  You have so much to say and I can see you are on fire!

I am in and out of here, during my coffee breaks,...yes I have a lot of coffee breaks!

There's some things I want to go over with you when time allows brother.

Most of the time people wont read long posts, and I know I'm not the perfect example of this, but sometimes less is more or points don't get addressed, just lost in the overload of info.  If we do this then we get responses.  Maybe you are not after a response I don't know?

 

Your points are very important and we want them to be heard,

 

Just wanted to say thanks...Good work brother. You have obviously been seeking with all your heart and have much to say.

[firestormx]

When God opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist, bringing war and famine, - thats the wrath of God,

 I have a quick question about this statement. So your saying that everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God, correct? How can that be? Have you read the 5th seal? It's the killing of the saints. If everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God then the killing of the saints of God is God's wrath. Let me say that again, killing God's saints is God's wrath. How is that even possible? How does that make any sense? What are you gonna say to this I wonder? I hope it's not that everything before and after the 5th seal is God's wrath but not the 5th seal itself because If that is your belief, I wanna see that backed up with bible if you don't mind. Thank you for your time.

 

 

Firestormx

[Serving]

Hi Bible2,

 

 

Any person is an antichrist who denies Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or who denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or who denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist which will animate the future Antichrist has been working since the 1st century AD (1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), animating many antichrists since that time (2 John 1:7).

 

The existence of many antichrists (1 John 2:18) doesn't contradict there will be an individual man (2 Thessalonians 2:3,4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good, the existence of many sons of God (John 1:12) doesn't contradict there is an individual man (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) who is the Son of God (John 20:31).

 

Also, the idea of the individual-man Antichrist doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Antichrist" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture, just as, for example, the idea of the Trinity doesn't have to be explicitly referred to in scripture as "the Trinity" in order for it to be true and supported by scripture (e.g. Matthew 28:19, John 1:1,14, Acts 5:3-4).

 

Yes it does. And let me tell you why ..

 

We MUST be specific because doctrines have already popped up involving the "Anti-Christ" and his "false prophet" & their "Beast" .. so no .. we can not compromise on the TITLE that God gave him for these very reasons .. we must be technically accurate when speaking of this coming man because incorrect doctrines always appear out of incorrect usage.

 

 

Serving said in post 16:
 

The wrath of God comes directly after the set period of tribulation of the saints which lasts 3 1/2 years which is counted among the 2300 days . . .

 

In Daniel 8:14, the original Hebrew words (ereb, H6153; and boqer, H1242) translated as the single word "days", mean "evenings" and "mornings" (cf. Daniel 8:26) in reference to the evening and morning lamb sacrifices of the Mosaic law (Exodus 29:38-42). So the 2,300 "evenings" and "mornings" might actually be only 1,150 days. These days could have been fulfilled in ancient times, in the time of Antiochus IV. And Daniel 8:14b could refer to the cleansing of the temple under Judas Maccabeus.

 

??

 

Brother, it does not say 2300 evenings & mornings, it says 2300 days. (I know what you were getting at though)

 

I'll give the scriptures at the end with their content & take note as to who this information pertains to, once that is realized, then you will realise that it was for "us" to understand and therefore the 2300 days likewise would be expressed in a way we would indeed comprehend / understand because of who those words were really aimed at for to understand.

 

As for this:

 

 

So the 2,300 "evenings" and "mornings" might actually be only 1,150 days. These days could have been fulfilled in ancient times, in the time of Antiochus IV. And Daniel 8:14b could refer to the cleansing of the temple under Judas Maccabeus.

 

"Could be" is not good enough for the hungry seeker .. I need to know everything, not "could be " otherwise I would have no right to be speaking on these things.

 

Look Bible2, God quite often has examples in history for us to get a glimpse of how He goes about bringing His plan to pass in this natural world, how He operates & uses the wicked to do the wicked works .. so let us say Antiochus was one such example, this example should never take the place of whom the actual prophecy is concentrating on because .. "AND" then becomes a "could be" .. now you would have just introduced doubt and unknowingly admit you "could be" contradicting yourself as to your confidence in understanding what is actually being said. (not meaning you specifically, just using an example here brother) .. so no, we must be sure in that which we understand lest the winds of erroneous doctrines blow us from here to there & back again.

 

So back to that wall ... now that doubt has introduced confliction into the picture & from there, again, will come  even more erroneous doctrine .. see where I am going bro? .. this is how Satan works .. if your wall is slightly out at the beginning .. Satan won't try dissuade you from learning of God, instead, he will encourage an incorrect interpretation & run with it to full effect .. thus mid point of building that wall .. errors will have multiplied through needing to reconcile other prophecies which would now be at the point of contradicting each other .. where an ever growing chorus of "could be" starts permeating throughout the very fabric of prophetic integrity & understanding .. until finally at the end of building that wall, that such a one is more blinded & naked & miserable & lost than when he first started !! And that will not do.

 

As a side note for your benefit .. besides scripture being absolutely clear on who this little horn is .. take careful note to God's Lingo & I will ask a question at the end . which should also confirm who the 2300 LITERAL days understanding was aimed at all along ..

 

Daniel 8:9-14

 

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

 

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

 

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

 

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

 

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

  

 

Q : What / Whose truth was cast to the ground? .. Judaism's??

 

Think on it brother.

 

God bless.

[Kan]

The seven seals

 

 

When God opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist, bringing war and famine, - thats the wrath of God,

 I have a quick question about this statement. So your saying that everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God, correct? How can that be? Have you read the 5th seal? It's the killing of the saints. If everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God then the killing of the saints of God is God's wrath. Let me say that again, killing God's saints is God's wrath. How is that even possible? How does that make any sense? What are you gonna say to this I wonder? I hope it's not that everything before and after the 5th seal is God's wrath but not the 5th seal itself because If that is your belief, I wanna see that backed up with bible if you don't mind. Thank you for your time.

 

 

Firestormx

 

 

Right on Firestorm, 

 

The seven seals do not reveal the wrath of God, but the wrath of the dragon.

 

Rev 12:12. After Jesus left earth, the battle was on, with the inhabitants of the world. Then it goes on the give the clues to the dragons reign, such as the prophetic time of 3 1/2 times or years = 360 days x 3.5 = 1260 days, in vision time = 1260 literal years in real time.

The Papacy reigned for 1260 years, killing over 60 million people condemned as insurgents and heretics by her dogmas. 

 

Paul said in II Thessalonians 2:7. "that the mystery of iniquity doth already work" Verse 3 he says there would be a falling away first in the religious world, which at that time was fast becoming primarily Christian.

 

This situation is illustrated in vision as the first seal - a white conquering horse.

Then after the Pagan Roman empire could not prevent the spread of Christianity by killing them, Satan began to solicit the old Pharisees and the apostatizing Christians to bring in falsehoods, that would divide Christendom, allowing the false to persecute the sincere. Which is the second seal or horse.

Then the third horse, all the food support is gone (wheat etc), except for the oil and wine. Christianity was being stripped of its prosperity and left with only its faith (oil and wine). They went underground, they had to meet in small groups, fearing the corrupt and worldly church.

The fourth horse is dreadful, It killed using "the beasts of the earth" -or kingdoms as Daniel said, it reigns among the other horns.

After the bloody persecution by the Papacy, we see the fifth seal, the souls under the altar crying for justice. (This is not literal, but symbolic - there are no righteous souls roaming around and crying).

The sixth seal is opened, after the reformation days, and then there are signs in the sun, moon and stars as Jesus said there would be after the tribulation. Matthew 24:29.

 

In 1790 the sun was darkened and the moon became as blood, in 1833 the world experienced a great meteorite shower, like the stars falling from heaven.

And the next event in line is the heavens departing as a scroll as Christ returns, not as a builder, or Savior, or high priest, but as a war Lord to avenge the elect.

 

But before the last seal is opened, there is a picture of the saved as being sealed, 12 tribes of Israel, each name with a meaning, which if you read in order as they are named reveals what the meaning of this vision of tribes is. It has nothing to do with land rights or Zionists.

 

All of the saints will be prepared to meet God when He returns. 

 

So the great tribulation isn't some future skittle, but the long days under Papal tyranny, in line with all the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, in line with Christ's teaching, of the great empires of the world in succession.

 

Which Kingdom of Satan do you think would like us to remove the application of the prophecies to itself and put them into an indeterminate and obscure time into the future, with no context or sense to place with the other main empires? Putting a great gap in history of nearly 1500 years? Who would like to eliminate that history? The Antichrist itself. And who would like the seven seals to be muddled up and placed into some nondescript future?

[InSeasonOut]

Bible 2

 

Thank you for backing up.  You have so much to say and I can see you are on fire!

I am in and out of here, during my coffee breaks,...yes I have a lot of coffee breaks!

There's some things I want to go over with you when time allows brother.

Most of the time people wont read long posts, and I know I'm not the perfect example of this, but sometimes less is more or points don't get addressed, just lost in the overload of info.  If we do this then we get responses.  Maybe you are not after a response I don't know?

 

Your points are very important and we want them to be heard,

 

Just wanted to say thanks...Good work brother. You have obviously been seeking with all your heart and have much to say.

 

You're right, "Bible2" is not after a response. His kind of people just like to flood these posts with long answers, and i can almost guaurentee he copy and pasted

most of his answers, from various places... no way he sat there and took all that time to type it out just to answer me...

Bible 2 - did you copy and paste any part of your answers from somewhere?

And since it was so much - give me one or 2 of your answers you would like me to respond to, then i will gladly answer.

 

1 thing ill bring up is Bible2 said the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is Jesus... No Rev. 6 is the antichrist,

Revelation 19 is Jesus on his white horse. So many false teachers have said Rev 6 is Jesus. It's obviously not.

 

Rev 6:2

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

1 crown and a bow

 

Rev 19:11

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

Many crowns and a sword (not a bow)

 

Please stick to the 12 points i originally addressed though please and thank you.

[tigger398]

Now I'm not sure if I'm correct. I think the tribulation is for the jewish people, but I could be wrong.

[InSeasonOut]

 

When God opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist, bringing war and famine, - thats the wrath of God,

 I have a quick question about this statement. So your saying that everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God, correct? How can that be? Have you read the 5th seal? It's the killing of the saints. If everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God then the killing of the saints of God is God's wrath. Let me say that again, killing God's saints is God's wrath. How is that even possible? How does that make any sense? What are you gonna say to this I wonder? I hope it's not that everything before and after the 5th seal is God's wrath but not the 5th seal itself because If that is your belief, I wanna see that backed up with bible if you don't mind. Thank you for your time.

 

 

Firestormx

 

 

Great question... I'm not dogmatic on that issue, thats why its not in my specific 12 points

the 1st seal, unleashing the antichrist, is what i assume to be the wrath of God, but at least certainly a judgment upon the earth.

and so the antichrist is not free he's... just a "puppet" , he can only do what God allows, and is prophesied/written

 

7:3 says Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

then 4-8 the 144,000 Jews are sealed (not Gentiles)

 

The 144,000 Jews are evangelists to Gentiles. A remnant of Jews will remain in Israel for a willing sacrifice of martyrdom which is Rev 6:9-11

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Isaiah 6:13 ; Nehemiah 11:1-2)

 

The altar there, is either the altar of incense or the brazen altar of sacrifice (Rev 8:3 ; 5) and which are beheaded most likely Rev 20:4

There won't be any altars in America or any other country but Israel.

The fifth seal refers to the Jewish remnant in religious sacrifices in the Jewish temple - Matthew 24:15 - Rev 11:1-2

 

The Jews that are sealed in 7:3

There are 2 saved groups in Revelation, Jews / 12 tribes 7:4-8 and then Gentiles 7:9-17

The Jews are sealed upon their foreheads - the Gentiles are not, they have to endure to the end with works Rev 14:12

 

Moreover, today, there is no distiction between Jew and Gentile, we are one in Christ. Galations 3:28

Discern between the physical and the spiritual - there are physical disticions between Jews and Gentiles, but not spiritually

There are physical distictions between male and female - but not spirtually. (response to Bible2)

But in the time of Jacobs trouble  TOJT) / Daniels 70th week

God is strictly dealing with the Jews and there is a distiction both physically and spiritually.

 

Again, Rev 1:5 shows the reality of Christians today - we ARE saved - we ARE washed - And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

Revelation 7:14 is a completely different set of people

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Clearly that is works salvation - not taking the mark and enduring to the end to be saved

 

Is the 5th seal the wrath of God? I don't know. I can argue with myself even back and forth.

I'm not perfect, I don't understand every single verse of scripture. No one does, not even Bible2 lol

[InSeasonOut]

Now I'm not sure if I'm correct. I think the tribulation is for the jewish people, but I could be wrong.

 

Yes, the Jews are God's chosen people, they are in the everlasting covenant of Abraham. But the Jews are in unbelief right now. The whole point of the 7 years

is God gives the Jews signs to confirm Jesus is their Messiah. There are many parallels between the book of Exodus and Revelation

Israel began with signs and will end with signs..... The 2 witnesses are Moses and Elijah. The 2 most respected fathers of Judaism.

They confirm the NT to the Jews, to bring them to repentance and faith in Christ. They will see him whom they have pierced - Zechariah 12:10

 

Gentiles are mentioned in only a few verses in Revelation

[InSeasonOut]

CONTINUED :

 

 

And when the mark to buy or sell is there, avoiding it is works salvation, you have to avoid it to be saved, thats breaking eternal security.

 

Sorry you lost me there ..

 

 

Obviously a different dispensation that this church age won't be in, the first 31/2 years is no cake walk

 

Again, no idea what you mean here sorry.

 

Regards.

Are you dispensational? or know what it means? Everyone is dispensational - whether they want to admit it or not -

You don't sacrifice animals - you are dispensational - Christians are not under the law - we are dispensational - easy way to put it..

"the tribulation" is a different dispensation - salvation is dispensed in a different way - Faith PLUS Works

If someone takes the mark - they lose their slavation - no going back! - They have to resist the mark to be saved - that is works

We are not saved BY our works. - Those in "the tribulation" will be Rev 7:14 ; and 14:9-12

 

Rightly divide the word of truth 2Tim2:15 ; 1Cor 2:14

[firestormx]

Is the 5th seal the wrath of God? I don't know. I can argue with myself even back and forth.

I'm not perfect, I don't understand every single verse of scripture. No one does, not even Bible2 lol

  Thank you for your answer. I appreciate your honesty in that your not sure. So let me give you a few scriptures to study on the subject of God's wrath if you don't mind. When God's wrath starts is important. 

 

Joel 2 30-31

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

 

 

  Now notice what this verse says happens before the great and terrible day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is God's wrath. If your not sure about this do a study on the day of the Lord for yourself and you will see this is biblically accurate. Now if you compare this to Matt. 24, and revelation you will see the event here described in Joel which is BEFORE God's wrath is either the 6th seal or the 4th trumpet. ( I believe the 6th seal ) .  I won't give you the answer. you must seek Jesus and get it from him through prayer and study. But this is a place to start in regards to when the wrath of God begins, because we are not appointed to wrath. So knowing when the wrath starts is important. This verse is a marker. it gives a clear warning about what MUST take place BEFORE God's wrath. May God bless you 

 

Firestormx