who do you say is the Restrainer

[Sonseeahray]

Did you ever consider studying the Bible for yourself instead of cutting and pasting these errant doctrines of others. That is why the Church is so doctrinally screwed up today because of the teachings of just a few that is accepted by the masses.

[missmuffet]

Who does John say the book was written to?

The Churches.

[missmuffet]

Did you ever consider studying the Bible for yourself instead of cutting and pasting these errant doctrines of others. That is why the Church is so doctrinally screwed up today because of the teachings of just a few that is accepted by the masses.

Who are you addressing this post to?

[MorningGlory]

Isn't it too bad that God did not write any prophesy to the people of the New Testament in Jesus' day. It was all written to us in the 21st century and beyond. I guess these people were unloved and uncared for by God for some reason. Maybe it was because they were mostly illiterate, uneducated, poor, and generally worthless. That would explain why God loves us so much and why he wrote most of all prophesy to us today.

 

You foolish people - Josephus tells us who the restrainer was - it is recorded in history. Near Passover of 66AD (Nissan 8th) the Shekinah Glory of God was seen departing the Temple. It moved to the top of the mount of Olives where it was reported to have stayed unto the end of the great tribulation of Jerusalem. Shortly after this event - the war broke out against the Romans which led to the Judgment of Israel. The war could not begin until this restrainer was visibly removed - and this was God's sign that it had happened.The very same identical thing happened just before the destruction of the Temple of Solomon according to Ezekiel.

 

Get rid of these 21st century useless speculations - Paul, Jesus, and Daniel all wrote to the day of the first century Christians. It's all past.

 

As one of those 'foolish people' I'm going to have to tell you that, IMO, you are completely wrong.  If all of that is a couple of thousand years in the past then why are the prophecies still being fulfilled? Most notably, Israel's coming back together as a nation. Identify the A/C in the first century, the False Prophet.  When was the war of Har Megiddo?  When did all the nations mentioned in Revelation come against Israel? When was one third of mankind wiped out?  When were people all required to take the Mark?  I THINK you're saying the Holy Spirit is the restrainer and was removed from the earth nearly two thousand years ago? Correct me if I've misunderstood you.

[SINNERSAVED]

I think I am going to have to be a foolish person also and agree with Morning Glory on this , and besides since when fellow brothers and sisters are foolish?  when it is about learning something and getting input with everyone as a the body of christ, I think some one needs a jesus hug Sonseahray. and a dash of grace, ,I have not been on this web site ,for more then a week and I see that there are simply some that are just bothered by the lack of understanding and knowledge over others , why does it all have to be so hostile when people don't agree with other views, where is the compassion, of not everyone is as seasoned or experienced as others , and this is where the advance can really shine and support one another with the helping of trying to guide ,people that are not as advance , instead of going for the cheap shot, and this the pride and arrogance is what makes people walk away from the faith,so foolish is as foolish does, but peace be with you brother, lets build one another in the faith for that is the real heart of the spirit , amen..i will give you a second jesus hug , I think you need it.

[gdemoss]

The mystery of iniquity....lawlessness...Jesus said he would say unto them depart from him those who work iniquity. The Tower of BIBLE has been built and many come to get their ears tickled each week by the sooth sayers who say peace when there is no peace.

Not sure what you are trying to express. What do you have to say about the subject itself?

Moses

[Bible2]

Sonseeahray said in post 34:

 

Paul, Jesus, and Daniel all wrote to the day of the first century Christians. It's all past.

 

Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

 

Sonseeahray said in post 34:

 

Paul, Jesus, and Daniel all wrote to the day of the first century Christians. It's all past.

 

Note that no man ever sat in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaimed himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in our future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking he isn't the Antichrist.

 

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

 

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

 

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

 

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands, and as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

 

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

 

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Sonseeahray said in post 37:

 

If you read Josephus's account of WARS of the JEWS you call see within all of the prophesies of Jesus, Paul, and Daniel have come to pass - all of them.

 

Note that the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

 

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

 

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Sonseeahray said in post 42:

 

Who does John say the book was written to?

 

Note that in Revelation 1:1,3, as in Revelation 22:6,10, "shortly" and "at hand" can be understood in the same manner as "Surely I come quickly" in Revelation 22:20, which refers to Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming. I.e., shortly/at hand/quickly in these verses can be understood from the viewpoint of God, not men (2 Peter 3:8-9).

 

Also, from the viewpoint of men, part of what Revelation chapters 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision. For the letters to the 7 literal, first century AD local church congregations (Revelation chapters 2-3) in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11b) could have foretold a first century persecution (Revelation 2:10, Revelation 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 will unfold "shortly" (Revelation 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Revelation 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only 2 days (2 Peter 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 (and Matthew 24) from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Peter 3:9).

 

Other books in the Bible contain prophecies of events which wouldn't occur for 3,000 to 4,000 years. For example, Ezekiel prophesied of the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Revelation 20:8-9) some 3,600 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Ezekiel gave that prophecy some 600 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after Jesus' (still future) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:10). Also, God prophesied Jesus' spiritual defeat of Satan at the Crucifixion (Genesis 3:15, Hebrews 2:14) some 4,000 years before its occurrence. And Isaiah prophesied God creating a new heaven and earth (Isaiah 66:22, Revelation 21:1-8) some 3,700 years before its (still future) occurrence. For Isaiah gave that prophecy some 700 years before Jesus' first coming, but it won't be fulfilled until some 1,000 years after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 21:8).

[Sonseeahray]

The book of Revelation was written to the seven Churches of Asia and NOT TO US. So in order to understand this book we have to look at it through their eyes. The only way you can do this is by knowing history. These mostly Gentile believers were mostly illiterate, uneducated simple working people many of them were slaves. So the real message of John had to be very simple and relevant to their time. The only consideration is that the SECOND COMING has been delayed and has slid into our time - Nothing else has. This book ends historically with the final judgment of Rome the literal city and its foul, corrupt, and evil ruler ship. The city split into three parts in 395AD when part of the government moved to Milan (and then Ravenna) and the third part moved to Constantinople. The final judgment came in 410Ad when Alaric the Visigoth sacked the city. It never recovered after that. That is the end (The final 7th bowl of wrath) of the historical book of Revelation. All that remains is the last couple chapters concerning the Second coming and the events surrounding it..

[Sonseeahray]

I'm having problems with this site. It will not post the quotes and I can't copy and paste. So I will have to do this on another computer. But meanwhile I have to go and finish canning two bushels of string beans. Later.

Edited August 6, 2015 by Sonseeahray

[peacemakerIND]

God is only powerful in all,, nothing can come to compare,, to create wonderful universe, to resist and defeat SAtan and also to defeat sin,,