A different post-trib / pre-wrath interpretation

[Ezra]

 

Yes, this does seem to be a popular interpretation. I'm just curious as to what it is in Mt 24:29-31 that would justify interpreting it as two events? It seems to me reading it at face value it's talking about one event. Lk 21:28 doesn't seem to have anything concrete to say about it either as far as I can tell.

What many seem to forget is that the Olivet Discourse is AN OVERVIEW of events from the destruction of the Temple until past the Second Coming of Christ. Therefore there can be  many things which happen which are not even seen on the surface.

24:29 -- Cataclysmic cosmic events taking place over a period of time

24:30 -- The Second Coming of Christ (many things happen which will be found in the OT)

24:31 -- The gathering of "the elect" (redeemed Jews) from the four corners of the earth

It is assumed that v 31 is about the Rapture.  That is incorrect.

Luke 21:28 is not a reference to the immediate events preceding, but an indication that when these prophecies "begin to come to pass" then be assured and encouraged that the return of Christ -- "your redemption" -- is certain. This, I believe, is addressed to the Church.

[ghtan]

Yes, this does seem to be a popular interpretation. I'm just curious as to what it is in Mt 24:29-31 that would justify interpreting it as two events? It seems to me reading it at face value it's talking about one event. Lk 21:28 doesn't seem to have anything concrete to say about it either as far as I can tell.

Yes, it is possible to read all that as one event - and many do - but Luke helps us by expanding Mk 13:24 (=Mt 24:29) into Lk 21:25-26 and thus clarifies that it actually refers to a whole series of (end-time) events. Therefore, Luke can say in 21:28 "when these things BEGIN to take place..." It is also noteworthy that he does not say "BEFORE these things begin to take place..." as that would suggest a pre-trib rapture.   

[toknowthetruth]

See next post.

Edited September 4, 2015 by toknowthetruth

[toknowthetruth]

Yes, this does seem to be a popular interpretation. I'm just curious as to what it is in Mt 24:29-31 that would justify interpreting it as two events? It seems to me reading it at face value it's talking about one event. Lk 21:28 doesn't seem to have anything concrete to say about it either as far as I can tell.

Yes, it is possible to read all that as one event - and many do - but Luke helps us by expanding Mk 13:24 (=Mt 24:29) into Lk 21:25-26 and thus clarifies that it actually refers to a whole series of (end-time) events. Therefore, Luke can say in 21:28 "when these things BEGIN to take place..." It is also noteworthy that he does not say "BEFORE these things begin to take place..." as that would suggest a pre-trib rapture.   

The passages in Luke seem a little too ambiguous to me to draw any concrete conclusions, but I would grant you that it is possible to interpret them the way you do. Are there other passages that would support your interpretation that are more specific in nature?

[Last Daze]

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

I do agree that Matthew 24:29 correlates to the sixth seal and part of v30 does too.  If you look carefully at verses 29-31 you'll notice that two things are seen.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

The first thing that is seen is the sign of the Son of Man.  This sign can be inferred by what the people of the sixth seal say.

And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.  Revelation 6:16

The sky is rolled back and people catch a glimpse into the spiritual realm.  What they see is reminiscent of the throne room scene in Rev 5.  There is no mention in the sixth seal of Christ returning in the clouds.  Christ returning in the clouds to gather the elect who are resurrected / raptured happens at a later point.  When you look at all of the scriptures that talk of that event, the straightforward interpretation with direct scriptural support is that it happens at the seventh trumpet.  That would break up Matthew 24:29-31 into two sections, one that happens at the sixth seal, and another that happens at the seventh trumpet.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky  --- corresponds to the sixth seal

[months pass]

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  --- corresponds to the seventh trumpet

Why would Jesus jump from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet?  Because he is giving signs for the believers to recognize concerning His return.  What lies between the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the first six trumpets which are judgments for those who have aligned themselves with the false prophet.  They are not signs that a believer would encounter or expect to see

Those are good points and certainly possibilities. I'm inclined to think that Matt 24:29-31 is one event, but that's just how I see it.

The resurrection / rapture, which is our gathering together to Him, happens on the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night after the armies gather at Armageddon.  That's the most simple, straightforward read of the passages related to our resurrection / change unto immortality.

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.  Revelation 16:12-16

Apparently, the resurrection / rapture is an event that is still future to the sixth bowl.  It can't be tied to the sixth seal.  The two things that are seen in Matt 24:29-31 are distinctly different.  The time lapse between them is however long it takes for the first six plague angels to carry out their trumpets and bowls, months and possibly a couple of year as I see it.

That's the straightforward read anyway, and the one I prefer.  It doesn't require any fabricated terminology or creative duplicity.

[toknowthetruth]

See next post. (Not quite used to the format of this forum yet.  )

Edited September 4, 2015 by toknowthetruth

[toknowthetruth]

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

I do agree that Matthew 24:29 correlates to the sixth seal and part of v30 does too.  If you look carefully at verses 29-31 you'll notice that two things are seen.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

The first thing that is seen is the sign of the Son of Man.  This sign can be inferred by what the people of the sixth seal say.

And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.  Revelation 6:16

The sky is rolled back and people catch a glimpse into the spiritual realm.  What they see is reminiscent of the throne room scene in Rev 5.  There is no mention in the sixth seal of Christ returning in the clouds.  Christ returning in the clouds to gather the elect who are resurrected / raptured happens at a later point.  When you look at all of the scriptures that talk of that event, the straightforward interpretation with direct scriptural support is that it happens at the seventh trumpet.  That would break up Matthew 24:29-31 into two sections, one that happens at the sixth seal, and another that happens at the seventh trumpet.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky  --- corresponds to the sixth seal

[months pass]

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  --- corresponds to the seventh trumpet

Why would Jesus jump from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet?  Because he is giving signs for the believers to recognize concerning His return.  What lies between the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the first six trumpets which are judgments for those who have aligned themselves with the false prophet.  They are not signs that a believer would encounter or expect to see

Those are good points and certainly possibilities. I'm inclined to think that Matt 24:29-31 is one event, but that's just how I see it.

The resurrection / rapture, which is our gathering together to Him, happens on the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night after the armies gather at Armageddon.  That's the most simple, straightforward read of the passages related to our resurrection / change unto immortality.

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.  Revelation 16:12-16

Apparently, the resurrection / rapture is an event that is still future to the sixth bowl.  It can't be tied to the sixth seal.  The two things that are seen in Matt 24:29-31 are distinctly different.  The time lapse between them is however long it takes for the first six plague angels to carry out their trumpets and bowls, months and possibly a couple of year as I see it.

That's the straightforward read anyway, and the one I prefer.  It doesn't require any fabricated terminology or creative duplicity.

Interesting take on that passage. Personally the way verse 15 reads to me is as a warning interjected into the overall passage, not directly related to the event. There are other similar passages in the NT as well that are used in a similar fashion as warnings.

As for the rapture I see it happening at the 7th trump (Rev 11:15) before the vials are poured out. Chapter 14 verses 14-16 expound upon this event just before the vials begin to be poured out in chapter 15. Also I correlate the 7th trump to the last trump that Paul refers to in 1Cor 15:52, as well as other related verses such as "a great sound of a trumpet" in Matt 24:31 which to me are in reference to the rapture.

[Last Daze]

The resurrection / rapture, which is our gathering together to Him, happens on the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night after the armies gather at Armageddon.  That's the most simple, straightforward read of the passages related to our resurrection / change unto immortality.

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.  Revelation 16:12-16

Apparently, the resurrection / rapture is an event that is still future to the sixth bowl.  It can't be tied to the sixth seal.  The two things that are seen in Matt 24:29-31 are distinctly different.  The time lapse between them is however long it takes for the first six plague angels to carry out their trumpets and bowls, months and possibly a couple of year as I see it.

That's the straightforward read anyway, and the one I prefer.  It doesn't require any fabricated terminology or creative duplicity.

Interesting take on that passage. Personally the way verse 15 reads to me is as a warning interjected into the overall passage, not directly related to the event. There are other similar passages in the NT as well that are used in a similar fashion as warnings.

As for the rapture I see it happening at the 7th trump (Rev 11:15) before the vials are poured out. Chapter 14 verses 14-16 expound upon this event just before the vials begin to be poured out in chapter 15. Also I correlate the 7th trump to the last trump that Paul refers to in 1Cor 15:52, as well as other related verses such as "a great sound of a trumpet" in Matt 24:31 which to me are in reference to the rapture.

Verse 15, when Christ says that He's coming like a thief, is sandwiched between two directly related passages.  Are you saying that v15 has nothing to do with the context, that it is randomly inserted there and has no bearing on the chronology of that passage?  If so, then what is the specific basis for that?  It would take a very specific precedent, preferably two, for me to interpret v15 as being irrelevant to the context.

I agree that the resurrection / rapture coincides with the seventh trumpet.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

What is the mystery of God that's finished?

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.  Mark 4:11a

This can be seen by what is said in heaven when the seventh trumpet sounds:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  Revelation 11:15

When the seventh trumpet sounds, Christ descends with the clouds for the resurrection / rapture.  He then physically returns and establishes His kingdom and begins His governance of earth for 1000 years.  Revelation chapters 12-19 are not chronologically subsequent to chapters 6-11.  They give additional details about the events of 6-11.  The seven vials are related to the seven trumpets.  A trumpet begins a plague and a vial brings it to its completion or fullness.  There are seven plague angels and each angel is given a trumpet and a bowl.

And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.  Revelation 15:6-7

The seven angels already had the seven plagues (trumpets) and were then given seven vials.  When you compare the trumpets with their corresponding numbered vials, you'll see a striking correlation.  I have no doubt they are related.  The only vial that comes after the seventh trumpet is the seventh vial, on the same day, the day of the Lord, when Christ descends to earth for the slaughter of Armageddon.

[toknowthetruth]

The resurrection / rapture, which is our gathering together to Him, happens on the day of the Lord, which comes like a thief in the night after the armies gather at Armageddon.  That's the most simple, straightforward read of the passages related to our resurrection / change unto immortality.

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.  Revelation 16:12-16

Apparently, the resurrection / rapture is an event that is still future to the sixth bowl.  It can't be tied to the sixth seal.  The two things that are seen in Matt 24:29-31 are distinctly different.  The time lapse between them is however long it takes for the first six plague angels to carry out their trumpets and bowls, months and possibly a couple of year as I see it.

That's the straightforward read anyway, and the one I prefer.  It doesn't require any fabricated terminology or creative duplicity.

Interesting take on that passage. Personally the way verse 15 reads to me is as a warning interjected into the overall passage, not directly related to the event. There are other similar passages in the NT as well that are used in a similar fashion as warnings.

As for the rapture I see it happening at the 7th trump (Rev 11:15) before the vials are poured out. Chapter 14 verses 14-16 expound upon this event just before the vials begin to be poured out in chapter 15. Also I correlate the 7th trump to the last trump that Paul refers to in 1Cor 15:52, as well as other related verses such as "a great sound of a trumpet" in Matt 24:31 which to me are in reference to the rapture.

Verse 15, when Christ says that He's coming like a thief, is sandwiched between two directly related passages.  Are you saying that v15 has nothing to do with the context, that it is randomly inserted there and has no bearing on the chronology of that passage?  If so, then what is the specific basis for that?  It would take a very specific precedent, preferably two, for me to interpret v15 as being irrelevant to the context. 

Those are good points and you are certainly within reason to hold to that interpretation. I just don't see this passage as a continuation of the previous events, but as a warning to take heed to what is being said.

I'm not saying there is no relationship at all to the surrounding passages. Of course it is related in that the warning is about watching for the predicted events and being prepared. But from how the verse is worded it doesn't sound to me to be about the events themselves. For instance it starts our with "Behold", which is a signal to me of interjection. And why the stuff about watching and keeping his garments? Just doesn't read to me as a continuation of a description of more events. I also find it's the style of how the whole of Revelation is written. You find an example of this in Chapters 2-3 where it's talking about the different Churches and in between are interjections similar to the verse in question. Rev 3:11 is a good example of this.

I agree that the resurrection / rapture coincides with the seventh trumpet.  The seventh trumpet is the return of Christ.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.  Revelation 10:7

What is the mystery of God that's finished?

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God.  Mark 4:11a

This can be seen by what is said in heaven when the seventh trumpet sounds:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  Revelation 11:15

When the seventh trumpet sounds, Christ descends with the clouds for the resurrection / rapture.  He then physically returns and establishes His kingdom and begins His governance of earth for 1000 years.  Revelation chapters 12-19 are not chronologically subsequent to chapters 6-11.  They give additional details about the events of 6-11.  The seven vials are related to the seven trumpets.  A trumpet begins a plague and a vial brings it to its completion or fullness.  There are seven plague angels and each angel is given a trumpet and a bowl.

I guess you can tell from my op that I have a different view about the chronological order of Revelation than you do. That's an interesting take you've got on the trumpets and plagues, again a possibility of how to interpret those events. I don't find it convincing myself, but certainly an argument within reason.

And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.  Revelation 15:6-7

The seven angels already had the seven plagues (trumpets) and were then given seven vials.  When you compare the trumpets with their corresponding numbered vials, you'll see a striking correlation.  I have no doubt they are related.  The only vial that comes after the seventh trumpet is the seventh vial, on the same day, the day of the Lord, when Christ descends to earth for the slaughter of Armageddon.

 

Sorry about the colors. Tried something new, can't get the colors to work for some reason.

Edited September 5, 2015 by toknowthetruth