A different post-trib / pre-wrath interpretation

[toknowthetruth]

I originally posted this in the "Defense of the post-trib / pre-wrath" thread. I since discovered that the topic was something different than I had understood so I am starting a new thread and moving my post here. This is my take on what I consider how the sequence of the rapture and the wrath of God happen. Since there is a thread on the post-trib rapture already I'll concentrate more on the wrath of God.

Here's how I see the way Revelation is laid out. 

Outline of Revelation

 

I. Chapters 1-7 (Seven seals) Bird's eye view of time from John's day to New Heaven and New Earth 
     A. 1-3 Intro and Seven Churches
     B. 4-7 Six seals and prep for seventh seal

II. Chapters 8-14 (Seven trumpets) Zeroing in on the period of great tribulation and rapture
     A. 8-11 Seventh seal and Seven trumpets of the tribulation
     B. 12-14 The Woman, the Dragon, the Beast, and the Rapture

III. Chapters 15-22 (Seven vials) Zeroing in on wrath of God, the Millennium, Battle of Gog and Magog, and the New Heavens and New Earth.
     A. 15-16 Seven vials of God's Wrath
     B. 17-19 Mystery Babylon, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, Beast and False Prophet defeated
     C. 20-22 Millenium, Battle of Gog and Magog, White Throne Judgement, and New Heaven and New Earth

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc., and the second is at the end of the Millennium when the battle with Gog and Magog occurs. This can be seen by looking at the descriptions. There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29. Verses 14-17 are similar to Rev. 16:20-21 and both point to a time when there will be no more seas (Rev 21:1) which happens at the end of the Millennium.

The seventh seal opens up the 7 trumpets which the first six I see as all occurring during the GT. The seventh trumpet (Rev 11:15) however, sounded maybe at the same time or, if not, right after the two witnesses ascend to heaven, starts with the rapture (Rev 14:14-16) and then follows with the bowls of God's wrath (Rev 14:17-20, 15:1). 

I could go into the bowls and how they play out, but I don't think that would be necessary for this particular thread. I will say, however, that similar to the sixth seal that includes two separate events that occur at different time periods, so it is with the seventh bowl. It covers the return of Jesus at the B of A shortly after the rapture of the saints, and also the battle at the end of the Millennium with Gog and Magog. 

[AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken]

Not to interrupt, but aren't you and Retrobyter discussing this same topic elsewhere? Just curious

 

[Last Daze]

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

[toknowthetruth]

Not to interrupt, but aren't you and Retrobyter discussing this same topic elsewhere? Just curious

 

I recall having a discussion on another forum with whom I assume is the same Retrobyter. Don't recall the exact discussion, but was back a month or two.

[toknowthetruth]

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

[Last Daze]

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

I do agree that Matthew 24:29 correlates to the sixth seal and part of v30 does too.  If you look carefully at verses 29-31 you'll notice that two things are seen.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

The first thing that is seen is the sign of the Son of Man.  This sign can be inferred by what the people of the sixth seal say.

And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.  Revelation 6:16

The sky is rolled back and people catch a glimpse into the spiritual realm.  What they see is reminiscent of the throne room scene in Rev 5.  There is no mention in the sixth seal of Christ returning in the clouds.  Christ returning in the clouds to gather the elect who are resurrected / raptured happens at a later point.  When you look at all of the scriptures that talk of that event, the straightforward interpretation with direct scriptural support is that it happens at the seventh trumpet.  That would break up Matthew 24:29-31 into two sections, one that happens at the sixth seal, and another that happens at the seventh trumpet.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky  --- corresponds to the sixth seal

[months pass]

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  --- corresponds to the seventh trumpet

Why would Jesus jump from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet?  Because he is giving signs for the believers to recognize concerning His return.  What lies between the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the first six trumpets which are judgments for those who have aligned themselves with the false prophet.  They are not signs that a believer would encounter or expect to see

[Ezra]

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc., and the second is at the end of the Millennium when the battle with Gog and Magog occurs.

One should look at Revelation 6:12 - 19:21 in relation to the Olivet Discourse, since the culmination of all the judgements is the battle of Armageddon, when Christ personally descends from Heaven and destroys the armies gathered by Satan, the Beast and the False Prophet. This is at least 1,000 years before the battle of Gog and Magog.

At the same time, we should be cognizant of the fact that the 6th seal cosmic events follow the Great Tribulation (the 7th seal judgments). That is what Christ revealed in Mt 24:29: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[toknowthetruth]

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

 

The sixth seal is where I'll start. This seal has two events happening. The first is at the end of the GT when Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven to rapture His saints, etc.

How do you correlate the sixth seal with Jesus coming in the clouds?  What is your scriptural basis for that statement?

I did touch on that in my op. "There is very similar language in verses 12-13 of Rev. 6 to that of other references to Jesus' return at the end of the GT such as Matt. 24:29." If you need more scriptures along these lines there are several. 

I do agree that Matthew 24:29 correlates to the sixth seal and part of v30 does too.  If you look carefully at verses 29-31 you'll notice that two things are seen.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

The first thing that is seen is the sign of the Son of Man.  This sign can be inferred by what the people of the sixth seal say.

And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.  Revelation 6:16

The sky is rolled back and people catch a glimpse into the spiritual realm.  What they see is reminiscent of the throne room scene in Rev 5.  There is no mention in the sixth seal of Christ returning in the clouds.  Christ returning in the clouds to gather the elect who are resurrected / raptured happens at a later point.  When you look at all of the scriptures that talk of that event, the straightforward interpretation with direct scriptural support is that it happens at the seventh trumpet.  That would break up Matthew 24:29-31 into two sections, one that happens at the sixth seal, and another that happens at the seventh trumpet.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky  --- corresponds to the sixth seal

[months pass]

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  --- corresponds to the seventh trumpet

Why would Jesus jump from the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet?  Because he is giving signs for the believers to recognize concerning His return.  What lies between the sixth seal and the seventh trumpet are the first six trumpets which are judgments for those who have aligned themselves with the false prophet.  They are not signs that a believer would encounter or expect to see

Those are good points and certainly possibilities. I'm inclined to think that Matt 24:29-31 is one event, but that's just how I see it.

[ghtan]

Hi there!

I too think Mt 24:29-31 does not have to describe one event but neither are they arranged in chronological order. The rapture ("gathering of the elect") is described in 24:31 but it is significant that Luke's equivalent in Lk 21:28 says that when these things BEGIN TO HAPPEN, lift up your heads for your redemption is drawing near. The redemption likely corresponds to the gathering of the elect, i.e. the rapture, and Luke understands that it can happen anytime once the events of earlier verses begin to take place. It need not therefore be the last in the series, i.e. it need not be post-tribulational.

 

 

 

[toknowthetruth]

Hi there!

I too think Mt 24:29-31 does not have to describe one event but neither are they arranged in chronological order. The rapture ("gathering of the elect") is described in 24:31 but it is significant that Luke's equivalent in Lk 21:28 says that when these things BEGIN TO HAPPEN, lift up your heads for your redemption is drawing near. The redemption likely corresponds to the gathering of the elect, i.e. the rapture, and Luke understands that it can happen anytime once the events of earlier verses begin to take place. It need not therefore be the last in the series, i.e. it need not be post-tribulational.

 

 

 

Yes, this does seem to be a popular interpretation. I'm just curious as to what it is in Mt 24:29-31 that would justify interpreting it as two events? It seems to me reading it at face value it's talking about one event. Lk 21:28 doesn't seem to have anything concrete to say about it either as far as I can tell.

Edited September 4, 2015 by toknowthetruth