Hell Needs Clarification

[Guest shiloh357]

Why can I not get simply answers to questions, instead I get insulted, please someone help me here.

You're not being insulted.  I have answered your questions, but you can't understand the answers because you are not born again. 

try me...answer my questions

I give you answers and you reject them and just ask more and more and more questions.  In fact, you re-ask questions that have already been answered more than once.  You don't deserve any more answers to those questions.  We are not just going to keep on reposting the same answers to same worn out questions.  

[missmuffet]

Why can I not get simply answers to questions, instead I get insulted, please someone help me here.

You're not being insulted.  I have answered your questions, but you can't understand the answers because you are not born again. 

try me...answer my questions

I give you answers and you reject them and just ask more and more and more questions.  In fact, you re-ask questions that have already been answered more than once.  You don't deserve any more answers to those questions.  We are not just going to keep on reposting the same answers to same worn out questions.  

inchrist can always go back and review all 198 posts.There are a ton of answers....yes?

[missmuffet]

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Saved.one.from.grace, Enoob57 and Shiloh

No my friend let me show what is illogical and I'm going to go in depth here to get to a firm understanding of our topic and contradictions.

 

Greek word thanatos which simply means “death” (Strong 35)—the absence of life or opposite of life, hence, the cessation of conscious existence.

Thanatos means death of the body.  It does not mean a cessation of conscience existence.  I guess your a believer in soul sleep.  To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.  Also read what Jesus said to the thief on the cross.  See the link below:

Thanatos

Also, thanatos is a Greek mythological person where a lot of these beliefs may have filtered in.  It is unlikely that the original manuscripts were written in Greek.  More likely they were written in Aramaic and translated into Greek.  It's interesting you quote Paul by backing up his beliefs with a quote from James.  You do realize they are two different people don't you?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Saved.One.by.Grace

[Guest shiloh357]

Why can I not get simply answers to questions, instead I get insulted, please someone help me here.

You're not being insulted.  I have answered your questions, but you can't understand the answers because you are not born again. 

try me...answer my questions

I give you answers and you reject them and just ask more and more and more questions.  In fact, you re-ask questions that have already been answered more than once.  You don't deserve any more answers to those questions.  We are not just going to keep on reposting the same answers to same worn out questions.  

nice Try There WAS a reason why I kept asking you.

 

 

The second death is really no different than what you, personally, have now.  A conscious state of separation from God.  

 

And your contradiction

 

  I never said that that second death means, separation.  I said that spiritual death results in separation from the life of God and I have quoted scripture from Eph 2: 12-3; 4:18 that speak to that issue.

Now I  ask you again for clarification what is the second death? Is it a separation is it not a separation, is it spiritual death is it not spiritual death.

Does the second death = spiritual death = separation, which actually makes the second death = separation.

You claim it's not separation but being dead from God is by itself a separation yet you say not a separation.

What contextual justification do you have to not treat the second death as literal a complete cessation of life....why do you treat everlasting life for the righteous as literal conscious but not the second death as the opposite of life....death the end of life the end of consciousness? 

Regarding Jesus on the cross this does not answer my question

 

 God forsook Jesus on the cross, but Jesus was also God on the cross and God can't die spiritually. 

 

Jesus was crying out in anguish because of the separation He now experienced from His heavenly Father for the first and only time in all of eternity. It is the only time of which we have record that Jesus did not address God as Father. Because the Son had taken sin upon Himself, the Father turned His back. 

This is a complete template of what the wicked will experience on judgement day.

Because Jesus died as a substitute sacrifice for the sins of the world, the righteous heavenly Father had to judge Him fully according to that sin. Therefore Jesus experienced spiritual death. 

What is staggering even in a trinity concept which you do not know all the mysterious of the trinity this miracle seems to have escaped you that for a brief moment in time God In some way and by some means, in the secrets of divine sovereignty and omnipotence, the God-Man was separated from God. God being all powerful would have the capability of doing such. 

? good night

There was no contradiction.   I said didn't say that the meaning of "second death" was separation.    You are confused.   I said that the second death IS separation from God.   I am talking about what spiritual death is.

Jesus was not separated from the Father on the cross.  Sinners are spiritually dead.   Jesus would have become a sinner had he died spiritually and a sinner cannot pay for the sins of mankind.    God needed a sinless substitute to die on the cross.   If Jesus had died as a sinner, he would have been dying for his own sin, and not ours.

The theology of the substitutionary sacrifice is that Jesus, died as God, perfectly sinless for our sin.  He was not sinful at any time.   God turned his back on Jesus in His humanity.  But that did not mean that Jesus as God, died spiritually.   He couldn't die spiritually because Jesus was/is God.

That's where your heretical theology really breaks down.   You see Jesus dying on the cross as a sinner, spiritually dead and that is based on your rejection of Jesus as God.  And that is why you are on a greased pole sliding into hell.

Don't worry, when you leave this earth, you will find out all about the second death.

[missmuffet]

Why can I not get simply answers to questions, instead I get insulted, please someone help me here.

You're not being insulted.  I have answered your questions, but you can't understand the answers because you are not born again. 

try me...answer my questions

I give you answers and you reject them and just ask more and more and more questions.  In fact, you re-ask questions that have already been answered more than once.  You don't deserve any more answers to those questions.  We are not just going to keep on reposting the same answers to same worn out questions.  

nice Try There WAS a reason why I kept asking you.

 

 

The second death is really no different than what you, personally, have now.  A conscious state of separation from God.  

 

And your contradiction

 

  I never said that that second death means, separation.  I said that spiritual death results in separation from the life of God and I have quoted scripture from Eph 2: 12-3; 4:18 that speak to that issue.

Now I  ask you again for clarification what is the second death? Is it a separation is it not a separation, is it spiritual death is it not spiritual death.

Does the second death = spiritual death = separation, which actually makes the second death = separation.

You claim it's not separation but being dead from God is by itself a separation yet you say not a separation.

What contextual justification do you have to not treat the second death as literal a complete cessation of life....why do you treat everlasting life for the righteous as literal conscious but not the second death as the opposite of life....death the end of life the end of consciousness? 

Regarding Jesus on the cross this does not answer my question

 

 God forsook Jesus on the cross, but Jesus was also God on the cross and God can't die spiritually. 

 

Jesus was crying out in anguish because of the separation He now experienced from His heavenly Father for the first and only time in all of eternity. It is the only time of which we have record that Jesus did not address God as Father. Because the Son had taken sin upon Himself, the Father turned His back. 

This is a complete template of what the wicked will experience on judgement day.

Because Jesus died as a substitute sacrifice for the sins of the world, the righteous heavenly Father had to judge Him fully according to that sin. Therefore Jesus experienced spiritual death. 

What is staggering even in a trinity concept which you do not know all the mysterious of the trinity this miracle seems to have escaped you that for a brief moment in time God In some way and by some means, in the secrets of divine sovereignty and omnipotence, the God-Man was separated from God. God being all powerful would have the capability of doing such. 

? good night

There was no contradiction.   I said didn't say that the meaning of "second death" was separation.    You are confused.   I said that the second death IS separation from God.   I am talking about what spiritual death is.

Jesus was not separated from the Father on the cross.  Sinners are spiritually dead.   Jesus would have become a sinner had he died spiritually and a sinner cannot pay for the sins of mankind.    God needed a sinless substitute to die on the cross.   If Jesus had died as a sinner, he would have been dying for his own sin, and not ours.

The theology of the substitutionary sacrifice is that Jesus, died as God, perfectly sinless for our sin.  He was not sinful at any time.   God turned his back on Jesus in His humanity.  But that did not mean that Jesus as God, died spiritually.   He couldn't die spiritually because Jesus was/is God.

That's where your heretical theology really breaks down.   You see Jesus dying on the cross as a sinner, spiritually dead and that is based on your rejection of Jesus as God.  And that is why you are on a greased pole sliding into hell.

Don't worry, when you leave this earth, you will find out all about the second death.

Well said shiloh. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Why can I not get simply answers to questions, instead I get insulted, please someone help me here.

You're not being insulted.  I have answered your questions, but you can't understand the answers because you are not born again. 

try me...answer my questions

I give you answers and you reject them and just ask more and more and more questions.  In fact, you re-ask questions that have already been answered more than once.  You don't deserve any more answers to those questions.  We are not just going to keep on reposting the same answers to same worn out questions.  

nice Try There WAS a reason why I kept asking you.

 

 

The second death is really no different than what you, personally, have now.  A conscious state of separation from God.  

 

And your contradiction

 

  I never said that that second death means, separation.  I said that spiritual death results in separation from the life of God and I have quoted scripture from Eph 2: 12-3; 4:18 that speak to that issue.

Now I  ask you again for clarification what is the second death? Is it a separation is it not a separation, is it spiritual death is it not spiritual death.

Does the second death = spiritual death = separation, which actually makes the second death = separation.

You claim it's not separation but being dead from God is by itself a separation yet you say not a separation.

What contextual justification do you have to not treat the second death as literal a complete cessation of life....why do you treat everlasting life for the righteous as literal conscious but not the second death as the opposite of life....death the end of life the end of consciousness? 

Regarding Jesus on the cross this does not answer my question

 

 God forsook Jesus on the cross, but Jesus was also God on the cross and God can't die spiritually. 

 

Jesus was crying out in anguish because of the separation He now experienced from His heavenly Father for the first and only time in all of eternity. It is the only time of which we have record that Jesus did not address God as Father. Because the Son had taken sin upon Himself, the Father turned His back. 

This is a complete template of what the wicked will experience on judgement day.

Because Jesus died as a substitute sacrifice for the sins of the world, the righteous heavenly Father had to judge Him fully according to that sin. Therefore Jesus experienced spiritual death. 

What is staggering even in a trinity concept which you do not know all the mysterious of the trinity this miracle seems to have escaped you that for a brief moment in time God In some way and by some means, in the secrets of divine sovereignty and omnipotence, the God-Man was separated from God. God being all powerful would have the capability of doing such. 

? good night

There was no contradiction.   I said didn't say that the meaning of "second death" was separation.    You are confused.   I said that the second death IS separation from God.   I am talking about what spiritual death is.

Jesus was not separated from the Father on the cross.  Sinners are spiritually dead.   Jesus would have become a sinner had he died spiritually and a sinner cannot pay for the sins of mankind.    God needed a sinless substitute to die on the cross.   If Jesus had died as a sinner, he would have been dying for his own sin, and not ours.

The theology of the substitutionary sacrifice is that Jesus, died as God, perfectly sinless for our sin.  He was not sinful at any time.   God turned his back on Jesus in His humanity.  But that did not mean that Jesus as God, died spiritually.   He couldn't die spiritually because Jesus was/is God.

That's where your heretical theology really breaks down.   You see Jesus dying on the cross as a sinner, spiritually dead and that is based on your rejection of Jesus as God.  And that is why you are on a greased pole sliding into hell.

Don't worry, when you leave this earth, you will find out all about the second death.

Reread what I said, I said the following Jesus died as a substitute sacrifice for the sins of the world,  yet some how you think I said something different....

When I press you for answers in what second death means and how you come to the conclusion with contextual evidence of how you come to the conclusion that second death actually means life. 

 

Further I'm getting a little tired of this insults, I'm actually going to make a complaint about this.

 

I actually try my best to treat you with some little bit of respect which you clearly don't deserve. Everything has to get very personnal with you, when ever you find yourself in a difficult postion to explain things, it's not just with me but everybody who dates challenge you. 

I can't do this anymore I can't deal with stupidity

You have said that Jesus died spiritually.   That is heresy.    Jesus cannot die spiritually and be our substitute. 

I never said that second death means life.   I said that that spiritual death doesn't mean the cessation of existence.  That doesn't mean that I am saying death is life.  You are not theologically equipped to understand what spiritual death is and that is partly because you are not born again, and are not a follower of Jesus.

It has been explained to you over and over and not only by me, but by other members, as well. 

[Kan]

I have made no contradictions.

sure. ...

 Well there's actually a few. Start with these two points

 

 

1. The Bible does not claim that life and separation from God are opposites....Yet you claim this.

 

 

2. explain to me the inherent contradiction with Lazarus and the rich man because those by your interpretation of this parable, those in hell can communicate with those in heaven and it would appear we can also see each other. Not much of a seperation no is it

 

 

Further  "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

 

 

Well how can that be when we see Lazarus communicating with those in heaven while on fire

 

 

 

 

Spiritual death is always demonstrated in Scripture to be separation from God.  That's what I said. 

Lazarus didnt' say anything to anyone in that passage.  It was the rich man speaking to Abraham.   Yeah, there is a big separation given that there is no way to traverse the gulf between Abraham and the rich man.  

Evidently, you didn't read my comments about separation very well, as you are asking me about what didn't say.

Here we go, - 'spiritual death' vs literal death. Pick and mix as desired, all brands half price today.

[Kan]

I have made no contradictions.

sure. ...

 Well there's actually a few. Start with these two points

 

 

1. The Bible does not claim that life and separation from God are opposites....Yet you claim this.

 

 

2. explain to me the inherent contradiction with Lazarus and the rich man because those by your interpretation of this parable, those in hell can communicate with those in heaven and it would appear we can also see each other. Not much of a seperation no is it

 

 

Further  "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

 

 

Well how can that be when we see Lazarus communicating with those in heaven while on fire

 

 

 

 

Since this wasn't addressed to me, I will only add my 2 cent's worth to point 2.  I believe the parables of Jesus are all teaching examples of real life and/or death situations.  At the time this parable was set, neither the rich man or Lazarus had received final judgment.  The rich man was in hell (but not the final hell) and Lazarus was in heaven (but not the final heaven).  So this was a temporary place for both, with a gulf of some kind in between.  At the end, final judgment will occur and we will be judged according to Jesus' work on the cross, or our man-made works (which are as filthy rags).  In the new heaven, the former things will not be remembered by those of us saved by God's grace and the shed blood of our savior Jesus.  I see no contradiction here.

Now we have stages to heaven and hell? hello limbo.

[Kan]

To All

First of all; Paradise/Bosom of Abraham (as the Jews called it) was adjacent to Hades.  Righteous souls in Paradise, Unrighteous souls in Hades.  A deep chasm separated the two. So as Jesus said, one could see across the chasm. This is the prime reason that Jesus had to be in the heart of the earth for 3 days.  Visiting those in Paradise; your time here is almost over.

Eph 4: 7-10b - But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.  This is why it says; "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men".  What does "he ascended" mean, except he also descended to the lower earthly regions.  He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens....

So when Christ ascended on high He brought Paradise  (those captives) with Him.  Hades being isolated.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Thanks for those extra details on hell, the bridges, gulfs and canyons that need to be crossed, I wonder if the Egyptian boat of the dead is there too, trying to cross the river to the west?