if i'm not baptised and i die

[Guest hubertdorm]

if baptism is not obedience  what is it.???

In Christ 

Irene m

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's not what you said. You said baptism was sign of our obedience. Please refer me to a passage that teaches this.

[Guest hubertdorm]

Legalism is teaching that ANYTHING other than the blood of Jesus is neceassary for salvation.  If baptism were required for salvation, then it would be included in EVERY passage where we are told how salvation is made possible. 

So am I legalistic if I believe grace is necessary for salvation?

Am I legalistic if I believe repentance is necessary for salvation?

Am I legalistic if I believe faith is necessary for salvation?

I'm sure you'll find a way to incorporate these all to cover up your wording, but I'm equally as sure that you'll view me as legalistic for believing baptism is necessary.

Baptism is the New Covenant sign which is the equivalent to the Old Covenant sign of bodily circumcision.

God imputed righteous to Abraham 25 years BEFORE he was circumcised.  Romans chapter 4 tells us that.  The same chapter tells us that our faith is IMPUTED to us in the same manner it was imputed to Abraham. It is imputed by faith.  Just as Abraham was declared righteous without the OT sign of circumcision, we are declared righteous without the NT sign of baptism.

Finally something relevant. If baptism is the circumcision of the new covenant, then this is where the argument lies, not in ridiculous "faith only" arguments. When push comes down to shove, I believe that baptism is the sign of the new covenant.

The only baptism that saves, is being baptised into Christ. 

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 

Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Baptism into Christ's death is what saves.  That occurs when you receieve Jesus as Savior.  Immersion in water is not the true baptism, but is an outward expression of what happens at the moment of salvation.

Yes, baptism into Christ's death (and thus resurrection) saves. How are we baptized into Christ? What does the text say?

"We are buried with him by baptism into death."

Baptism is a burial that unites us with the death and resurrection.

Baptism is an outward expression of what happens at the moment of salvation? Fair enough. But why can't that moment of salvation occur AT water baptism? We read of this in the Bible, but not today?

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 

Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast. 

We are not told that we are saved by grace through faith + baptism.  Salvation is Christ alone.  It is Christ + 0  Baptism is a work and therefore has NO salvific properties.

First, we are told that faith + baptism = salvation in Mark 16, so you aren't using hermeneutics.

Second, baptism is not a second path to God. Baptism again is how we are united with Christ's death and resurrection (Romans 6), it is how we "put on Christ" (Galatians 3).

Essentially, you are arguing that we do not have to be united with Christ nor clothe ourselves with Christ to be saved.

Lastly, the Word of God never presents baptism as a work. Go back and read all of Paul's epistles. You will see the major theme of his letters was the grace given through faith apart from the law. Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, and thus had a mission to prove that the Law given to the Jews was not able to save. He wrote that works of the law cannot justify.

Works of the law

No man could completely follow the entire law, and thus anyone who tried to be justified by it was condemned instead. Paul's constant reminders are for us to understand that the law is not what saves, but grace through faith.

Works vs. Faith

Law vs. Grace

This was Paul's mission.

[Guest hubertdorm]

Why baptism is not a work

We have numerous reminders by Paul that works of the law cannot save. We have Peter telling the assembly that Gentiles should not be burdened by the yoke of the law, thus should abstain from circumcision.

The apostles knew that "works" would not save, but grace.

However, the apostles commanded that Gentiles be baptized. Why? If water baptism is simply a "work," and burdens of "works" were not placed on the Gentiles, why did the apostles command them to be baptized?

Could it be that baptism is not a "work" as those Paul spoke against?

What constitutes something as a work? Many people on this forum believe that anything we do is a work. But is that really what the Bible teaches?

Salvation is a choice. It has always been a choice. From the garden, to the temple, to the sea of Galilee and to this day, man has made a choice. We can choose God or choose to reject him. If you believe this makes it a "Work-based Salvation," you'll always be contending with the instructions of the inspired word.

[apothanein kerdos]

A man accepts Christ and walks across the street to go to church to announce this. He has not heard about Baptism, but will obviously be baptised when he gets to this church. On the way across the street he is hit by a car and dies. Does he go to heaven?

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Great posting hubertdorm I agree here.

Superjew, did you read the thread? We alraedy been through the dying before baptism scanrio, Answer, Christ will judge him on the last day, we do not know for certian if he is saved because frankly we don't have the right to judge. It is not up to us to say who will be saved, what we ARE suggesting is that all those who procliam they follow Christ have the obligation to be baptized as Christ himself commanded for salvation. If they die before that then its up to Christ to judge.

We are not saying that if you arn't baptized you are condemmed, we are saying that we should follow the comandments of Christ, do you disagree?

[apothanein kerdos]

Great posting hubertdorm I agree here.

Superjew, did you read the thread? We alraedy been through the dying before baptism scanrio, Answer, Christ will judge him on the last day, we do not know for certian if he is saved because frankly we don't have the right to judge. It is not up to us to say who will be saved, what we ARE suggesting is that all those who procliam they follow Christ have the obligation to be baptized as Christ himself commanded for salvation. If they die before that then its up to Christ to judge.

We are not saying that if you arn't baptized you are condemmed, we are saying that we should follow the comandments of Christ, do you disagree?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course I disagree. You have no idea what the historical context of Baptism is and obviously have not studied the issue. Regardless, if baptism is essential to salvation, then a person who dies in Christ but without being baptized WILL go to hell. This, by essence, makes it a work. If it were not a work then it would not be essential. Faith is not a work, it is something given to us by God. It is as clear cut as that.

[Guest hubertdorm]

It is a valid question Super Jew. I cannot say whether the man is saved or condemned (who died crossing the street.) The Catholic position is that this man experienced baptism of desire, that he would have been baptized had circumstances not prevented him from doing so. The problem I have is that I cannot, with full conviction, position myself one way or the other, hence my special interest into this topic. There are a lot of bad arguments against baptism (specifically the works issue), and good arguments (circumcision). I'm not a Calvinist. Faith is a gift from God, but due to the fact that countless billions are not saved is proof to me that we do not have a passive role in our salvation, that God does have requirements that we must choose to meet to be saved.

Is baptism one of those requirements? I'm still on my fence.

[Guest shiloh357]

We are not saying that if you arn't baptized you are condemmed, we are saying that we should follow the comandments of Christ, do you disagree?

No one is saying that we should not follow the commandments of the Lord. No one is saying that we should not get baptized. It is the motivation for such obedience that is in question. Commandments should not be kept, thinking that such obedience secures salvation. That is legalism. Besides there will always be people who are more obedient than you are. They they more saved than you? Baptism is a commandment and should be kept out of a desire to please God, and not as means of securing salvation.

Again, salvation is by faith in Christ alone. Baptism IS essential for salvation, but water immersion is not.

Water immersion is not the true baptism. The true baptism is being baptized into Christ and his death, and that is done by the Holy Spirit. I have already quoted Rom 6 on that issue.

Water imimersion is symbolic of what happens spiritually when a person is saved.

Not everyone will have access to water, or have the opportunity to be baptized, and therefore it cannot be rendered as "essential" EVERYONE who hears the gospel is saved the exact same way. The truth is that salvation by faith alone works in any scenario. Salvation by faith + baptism, does not. There are endless scenarios that would keep a person who was willing to turn to Christ, out of heaven if baptism is essential.

Anything added to salvation by grace through faith is exclusionary. If God said you had to believe in Jesus and have purple tennis shoes, SOMEONE would not access to purple tennis shoes and would thus be excluded, even though they wanted to be saved. The same with baptism. Jesus said that anyone who comes to him, he will in no way cast out. He is not going to throw someone away who come to him just because they did not get baptized.

[SkilletRocksMyFace]

Super Jew, take it esay man, I actually have studied Baptism in detail thank you.

It is not a mutualy exclusive thing, are you Christ that you can judge? Nor am I so lets let the judgement rest with him please and thank you.

The original question was "IF am am not baptized and I die, would I be saved" The answer is, it is not for us to judge.

Then the argument (that I am attempting to make here) is that Christian's should be baptized in water (which is what baptism is, literaly immersed in water)

if they have the means to do it. Please quote me when I said that if you wern't baptized in water you would be condemed.

Please state that it is in the spirit with resptect to Romans 6, also the holy spirit decended on Christ in his baptism AFTER he rose from the water, it is very much a water orinted baptism.

Baptism is no more a work than confessing with your mouth (that is using your lips to preach or speak the name of Jesus) Besides James tells us in chapter 2 that "Faith without works is dead"

IF somoene dies walking across the street, then Christ has the sole right to judge thier salvation based on thier faith, works or whatever other criteria Christ seems fit.

I have to politly disagree that if you arnt baptized and you die that you are condemed as put forth by super jew, I'm sorry but none of us have the right to judge another's salvation for God can and do what He will, it may be God will choose to save that person, Lets not limit the power of God.

[apothanein kerdos]

You haven't studied deeply enough.

Then the argument (that I am attempting to make here) is that Christian's should be baptized in water (which is what baptism is, literaly immersed in water)

Baptizo simply means to be immersed. It has never and never will be exclusive to water. Instead, we try to make it exclusive to water. Paul says we are to be baptized, that is, immersed, into the Holy Spirit. It is figurative. Does this mean we should forgo the act of Baptism into water? Absolutely not. For me it is a major case of significance for a Christian and an act of obedience. Do I think water baptism has anything to do with salvation, absolutely not. It is the spiritual baptism into the holy spirit that saves, not into water.

Please state that it is in the spirit with resptect to Romans 6, also the holy spirit decended on Christ in his baptism AFTER he rose from the water, it is very much a water orinted baptism.

He is not equating our Baptism to Christ's baptism. He is equating our spiritual baptism to Christ's death and ressurection. It is our old self being washed away and a new self comming upon us.

IF somoene dies walking across the street, then Christ has the sole right to judge thier salvation based on thier faith, works or whatever other criteria Christ seems fit.

So Christ can go against the Bible. We know that Christ is the only way to heaven. What you are asserting is that Christ can somehow go against this criteria. I am not limiting God's power, I am simply going by the critera which He put forth. If salvation is a huge issue, one would think He'd lay out specifically what is important. Thus if Baptism into water is needed for one to be saved, then without baptism you will go to hell.