Ezra Posted December 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.35 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2015 On 07/12/2015, 06:08:56, Judas Machabeus said: The word pray means to ask or to petition. It does NOT mean worship. And yet this prayer to St. Jude includes the promise to "spread devotion to you". That is the equivalent of worship. On top of that we have "our Fathers", "Hail Marys" and "Glory Bes" and offering Masses and Communions in his honor. If Jude's prayers are so greatly effective, why all the additional rites and rituals? O Holy St Jude! Apostle and Martyr, great in virtue and rich in miracles, near kinsman of Jesus Christ, faithful intercessor for all who invoke you, special patron in time of need; to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart, and humbly beg you, to whom God has given such great power, to come to my assistance; help me now in my urgent need and grant my earnest petition. I will never forget thy graces and favors you obtain for me and I will do my utmost to spread devotion to you. Amen. St. Jude, pray for us and all who honor thee and invoke thy aid. (Say 3 Our Father's, 3 Hail Mary’s, and 3 Glory Be’s after this.) Note that in addition to saying a prayer to St. Jude, we can invoke his aid by offering Holy Masses and Communions in his honor. We can also engage in charitable works in his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted December 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2015 6 hours ago, Ezra said: And yet this prayer to St. Jude includes the promise to "spread devotion to you". That is the equivalent of worship. On top of that we have "our Fathers", "Hail Marys" and "Glory Bes" and offering Masses and Communions in his honor. If Jude's prayers are so greatly effective, why all the additional rites and rituals? O Holy St Jude! Apostle and Martyr, great in virtue and rich in miracles, near kinsman of Jesus Christ, faithful intercessor for all who invoke you, special patron in time of need; to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart, and humbly beg you, to whom God has given such great power, to come to my assistance; help me now in my urgent need and grant my earnest petition. I will never forget thy graces and favors you obtain for me and I will do my utmost to spread devotion to you. Amen. St. Jude, pray for us and all who honor thee and invoke thy aid. (Say 3 Our Father's, 3 Hail Mary’s, and 3 Glory Be’s after this.) Note that in addition to saying a prayer to St. Jude, we can invoke his aid by offering Holy Masses and Communions in his honor. We can also engage in charitable works in his name. I don't see any worship there Ezra. You are simply reading something into this that isn't there. Prayer is not worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 11 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: I don't see any worship there Ezra. You are simply reading something into this that isn't there. Prayer is not worship. Prayer is worship. Prayer is facet of worship. It is not the totality of worship, but anyone with even a elementary understanding of theology knows that prayer is worship. No one can read Salva Regina is prayer and it is worship. Only in the convoluted mind of a Catholic apologist is prayer not worship. Intelligent people see it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted December 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.69 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 9, 2015 Just now, shiloh357 said: Prayer is worship. Prayer is facet of worship. It is not the totality of worship, but anyone with even a elementary understanding of theology knows that prayer is worship. No one can read Salva Regina is prayer and it is worship. Only in the convoluted mind of a Catholic apologist is prayer not worship. Intelligent people see it differently. Where does that bible say that prayer is worship? I am not asking where prayer is used in worship, but where the bible says ALL prayer is worship. Can you show me where it says that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Just now, thereselittleflower said: Where does that bible say that prayer is worship? I am not asking where prayer is used in worship, but where the bible says ALL prayer is worship. Can you show me where it says that? Where does the Bible say that it is wrong to beat your wife??? Where does the Bible mention gang rape as a sin?? I don't have to provide chapter and verse in order to state the obvious. Worship is comprised of many different things. Praise, supplication, intercessory prayer (to God alone), singing, dancing, and prayer and there are different kinds of prayer. Prayer is a part of worship and everyone knows that. Praying to saints is not biblical worship, but it is worship. The Bible sets God as the only object of our prayers. We are never told to pray to anyone else. That's because prayer is a facet of worship. You are trying weasel around the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 11 hours ago, Ezra said: And yet this prayer to St. Jude includes the promise to "spread devotion to you". That is the equivalent of worship. On top of that we have "our Fathers", "Hail Marys" and "Glory Bes" and offering Masses and Communions in his honor. If Jude's prayers are so greatly effective, why all the additional rites and rituals? O Holy St Jude! Apostle and Martyr, great in virtue and rich in miracles, near kinsman of Jesus Christ, faithful intercessor for all who invoke you, special patron in time of need; to you I have recourse from the depth of my heart, and humbly beg you, to whom God has given such great power, to come to my assistance; help me now in my urgent need and grant my earnest petition. I will never forget thy graces and favors you obtain for me and I will do my utmost to spread devotion to you. Amen. St. Jude, pray for us and all who honor thee and invoke thy aid. (Say 3 Our Father's, 3 Hail Mary’s, and 3 Glory Be’s after this.) Note that in addition to saying a prayer to St. Jude, we can invoke his aid by offering Holy Masses and Communions in his honor. We can also engage in charitable works in his name. I did a web search for the definition of devotion and I fail to see the word worship. Devo·tion /dəˈvōSH(ə)n/ noun 1.love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause"Eleanor's devotion to her husband"synonyms:loyalty, faithfulness, fidelity, constancy, commitment, ... more Powered by Oxford Dictionaries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 8 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said: I did a web search for the definition of devotion and I fail to see the word worship. Devo·tion /dəˈvōSH(ə)n/ noun 1.love, loyalty, or enthusiasm for a person, activity, or cause"Eleanor's devotion to her husband"synonyms:loyalty, faithfulness, fidelity, constancy, commitment, ... more Powered by Oxford Dictionaries Only God is the object of our spiritual devotion, not dead saints. Why would I need to be loyal or faithful or committed to a dead person? Furthermore, the biblical ideal of worship isn't merely in a church service. The Biblical ideal surrounding worship is a lifestyle. Worship is a total life commitment to God, not merely Sunday morning event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Shiloh are those in heaven dead?? Because scripture disagrees with your position. More specifically Jesus disagrees with your position Mark 12:26-27 26 But as for the dead rising again, have you never read in the book of Moses how God spoke to him at the burning bush, and said, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?[3] 27 Yet it is of living men, not of dead men, that he is the God; you are wrong, then, altogether. No one is forcing you or anyone else to praying to Saints. Praying to Saints is not needed for salvation. No more, is asking members of your congregation to pray for you is needed for salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 9 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said: Shiloh are those in heaven dead?? Because scripture disagrees with your position. More specifically Jesus disagrees with your position Mark 12:26-27 26 But as for the dead rising again, have you never read in the book of Moses how God spoke to him at the burning bush, and said, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?[3] 27 Yet it is of living men, not of dead men, that he is the God; you are wrong, then, altogether. No one is forcing you or anyone else to praying to Saints. Praying to Saints is not needed for salvation. No more, is asking members of your congregation to pray for you is needed for salvation. They are physically dead and even if they are alive in heaven and there is no reason to pray to them. Biblically, God is the object of our prayer life, our spiritual devotion, and our worship. He is the one who redeemed us, shed the blood of His Son for us. There is nothing any saint can do for us that God hasn't already done. He is our Creator, our Savior and our Judge. He is our most dread Sovereign and all that we do spiritually needs to be done for him and unto him. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to pray to those in Heaven. We are instructed to direct our prayers to the Father. Asking fellow believers to pray for us in times of need is not the same thing as Salva Regina or other pagan practices. I will believe the Bible, not the apostate "church." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Just now, shiloh357 said: They are physically dead and even if they are alive in heaven and there is no reason to pray to them. Biblically, God is the object of our prayer life, our spiritual devotion, and our worship. He is the one who redeemed us, shed the blood of His Son for us. There is nothing any saint can do for us that God hasn't already done. He is our Creator, our Savior and our Judge. He is our most dread Sovereign and all that we do spiritually needs to be done for him and unto him. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to pray to those in Heaven. We are instructed to direct our prayers to the Father. Asking fellow believers to pray for us in times of need is not the same thing as Salva Regina or other pagan practices. I will believe the Bible, not the apostate "church." Asking the saints in Heaven to pray for you is the same as asking those around you to pray for you. Same thing. Paul talks about us all being the members of the body of Christ in 1 Corthians 12:12-27 12 A man’s body is all one, though it has a number of different organs; and all this multitude of organs goes to make up one body; so it is with Christ. 13 We too, all of us, have been baptized into a single body by the power of a single Spirit, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free men alike; we have all been given drink at a single source, the one Spirit.[1] 14 The body, after all, consists not of one organ but of many; 15 if the foot should say, I am not the hand, and therefore I do not belong to the body, does it belong to the body any the less for that? 16 If the ear should say, I am not the eye, and therefore I do not belong to the body, does it belong to the body any the less for that?17 Where would the power of hearing be, if the body were all eye? Or the power of smell, if the body were all ear? 18 As it is, God has given each one of them its own position in the body, as he would. 19 If the whole were one single organ, what would become of the body? 20 Instead of that, we have a multitude of organs, and one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee, or the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 On the contrary, it is those parts of our body which seem most contemptible that are necessary to it; 23 what seems base in our bodies, we surround with special honour, treating with special seemliness that which is unseemly in us, 24 whereas that which is seemly in us has no need of it. Thus God has established a harmony in the body, giving special honour to that which needed it most. 25 There was to be no want of unity in the body; all the different parts of it were to make each other’s welfare their common care.26 If one part is suffering, all the rest suffer with it; if one part is treated with honour, all the rest find pleasure in it. 27 And you are Christ’s body, organs of it depending upon each other. So Shiloh I guess my question for you is... When you die and go to heaven are you removed from the body of Christ? I do not believe those in Heaven are removed from the body of Christ and therefore this passage applies equally to them as it does those still on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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