Kan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 32 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: No, I am disagreeing with saying that "it depends on which way you look at it." Oh, I must have Dutch reading glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 2 hours ago, shiloh357 said: You are wrong. The Bible says that Judas was not a believer. "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. He then addressed the 12 disciples and said, "'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him" (John 6:64, 70-71) Early in Jesus' ministry we see that Judas was already singled out as a "devil." That's not how you would describe a believer. God is sovereign and if God wanted Judas to do miracles he could have empowered Judas to do so, even if he was not a believer. God can use anyone as He sees fit. So this standard you have erected, namely that he did miracles doesn't really reflect the truth. In that case, we must conclude that Peter was also an unbeliever given that Jesus called him Satan in Mk 8:33. But if we do not judge that of Peter, we should not judge that of Judas either. What it indicates is that just as Satan was working on Peter to discourage Jesus from going to the cross, he was also working on Judas to betray Jesus. Jesus could see that Satan would exploit Judas’ weakness but it need not mean that Judas was already an unbeliever at that point. Can you show any biblical example of God giving power to an unbeliever to do miracles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 You took the words right out of my keyboard. 43 minutes ago, ghtan said: In that case, we must conclude that Peter was also an unbeliever given that Jesus called him Satan in Mk 8:33. But if we do not judge that of Peter, we should not judge that of Judas either. What it indicates is that just as Satan was working on Peter to discourage Jesus from going to the cross, he was also working on Judas to betray Jesus. Jesus could see that Satan would exploit Judas’ weakness but it need not mean that Judas was already an unbeliever at that point. Can you show any biblical example of God giving power to an unbeliever to do miracles? Yep, Judas believed, but was not fully surrendered to Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 2 hours ago, ghtan said: In that case, we must conclude that Peter was also an unbeliever given that Jesus called him Satan in Mk 8:33. But if we do not judge that of Peter, we should not judge that of Judas either. What it indicates is that just as Satan was working on Peter to discourage Jesus from going to the cross, he was also working on Judas to betray Jesus. Jesus could see that Satan would exploit Judas’ weakness but it need not mean that Judas was already an unbeliever at that point. Can you show any biblical example of God giving power to an unbeliever to do miracles? Jesus didn't call Peter Satan. That's nonsense. Jesus spoke to Satan as the source of Peter's denial that Jesus would be put to death. Jesus recognized that Satan was speaking through Peter and Jesus was addressing Satan not Peter. You need to read your Bible, better. I don't need to prove that God ever gave anyone the power to do miracles. The fact is that Judas' complete biblical profile gives us no indication that he was a believer. God used Judas to do his will. God can empower someone to do miracles if he chooses, because God is sovereign and can do as he pleases. Church tradition isn't clear about Judas performing any miracles. You are basically arguing from silence. But I can use the Bible handily to prove that Judas was never referred as a believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 10 hours ago, ghtan said: Sorry for the late reply. There is a difference between miracles done TO a person and miracles done BY a person. The former can happen to anybody but the latter, if done in the name of Jesus, can be done only by a genuine believer. As you say, it is God who actually does the miracle. The bible indicates God listens only to those who are genuine believers. The psalmist said so (Ps 66:18) and even the blind beggar understood that (John 9:31). So Judas could not have been an unbeliever and do miracles. That is why some wish to deny he did miracles. But given Mk 6:13 says they the apostles (without qualification) healed many and cast out many demons, the default interpretation must be that they ALL did so. If you think Judas alone did not, the onus is really on you to provide evidence for it. But picture this: as the other apostles were healing the sick and casting out demons, Judas alone could do none of that. He would have stood out like a sore thumb! Surely they would have noticed the difference and realised he was not a true believer. Then they would have easily guessed that Jesus was referring to Judas when he said at the last supper that someone would betray him. But they did not. So, all signs are that there was no discernible difference between Judas and the other apostles. Once again, Jesus Christ Superstar was not written by a believer, but out of that movie, a few were saved or receive the miracle of salvation. Mark 9:38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. 40 For he who is not against us is on our side. 41 For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. It is somewhat surprising, but a non-believer who can pray in the name of Jesus. If they are praying for a miracle for someone in Jesus name, God can answer the prayer and do the miracle. It happens. While God listens to a believer, it does not mean God doesn't know what non-believers say. That falls under God being omniscient. Scripture never ever says whether Judas prayed for miracles or not, and whether God did the miracles or not, but again non-believers can pray in Jesus name. You are seeking to prove the Judas was a believer who lost his salvation, but you are making a lot of assumptions in order to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.32 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 5 hours ago, Kan said: Yep, Judas believed, but was not fully surrendered to Jesus. Believers cannot be possessed by the Devil. Satan entered into Judas, and therefore he is also called "the son of perdition". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 1 hour ago, Ezra said: Believers cannot be possessed by the Devil. Satan entered into Judas, and therefore he is also called "the son of perdition". Mary - the friend of Jesus, fell into demon possession 7 times, and yet she is the one that is associated with the telling of the Gospel as Jesus stated. She was a believer from the start, but she had things to overcome in Jesus name. Judas rejoiced with the disciples, and often shared with them, but he cherished a secret sin, which ended up being the open door for Satan to take full hold of him. Unlike Mary, Judas did not allow the love of Jesus to overcome every obstacle. There are people wandering around in your church, who seem like godly people, but are controlled by Satan for deceptive purposes. There are people in everyday life who are reflecting the sentiments of the devil. Every time we sin, we are giving credit to the devil. It is by grace that we are saved, a grace far bigger then we ever imagined. The devil can manipulate any one of us according to the defects of our character, were it not for the grace and protection of God for the entire world, things would be very ugly. To turn around and say that a nonbeliever is permanently doomed (I know you are not saying that, but some do) or that a person who once believed and who longer does, never believed in the first place, does not add up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,974 Content Per Day: 2.42 Reputation: 2,790 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 6 hours ago, ghtan said: In that case, we must conclude that Peter was also an unbeliever given that Jesus called him Satan in Mk 8:33. But if we do not judge that of Peter, we should not judge that of Judas either. What it indicates is that just as Satan was working on Peter to discourage Jesus from going to the cross, he was also working on Judas to betray Jesus. Jesus could see that Satan would exploit Judas’ weakness but it need not mean that Judas was already an unbeliever at that point. Can you show any biblical example of God giving power to an unbeliever to do miracles? Judas had been with Jesus for quite some time to know that Jesus had the power to perceived the thoughts of others, and know what they are thinking and planing. He knew that he can not hide his plans from Jesus. Before Judas we had people from his imidiate family getting anxious. and trying to persuade Jesus not to keep the Jews in suspense, and divided, and were telling him reveal your self, having their own ambitions to rule over Israel together with him. ( their understanding in this matter it was not the same, and it will never be till after the resurrection). Jesus made Judas Perceived at the last supper that he was in agreement with his plans of how to revealed Jesus to the nation. First of all, Jesus did not rebuke him and tell him not to do it, and in stand he took all doubts out of him, w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 3 hours ago, Kan said: Mary - the friend of Jesus, fell into demon possession 7 times, and yet she is the one that is associated with the telling of the Gospel as Jesus stated. She was a believer from the start, but she had things to overcome in Jesus name. Judas rejoiced with the disciples, and often shared with them, but he cherished a secret sin, which ended up being the open door for Satan to take full hold of him. Unlike Mary, Judas did not allow the love of Jesus to overcome every obstacle. No, Mary Magdalene was delivered of seven demons by Jesus. She was not inhabited seven times. She did not keep getting possessed. Don't know where you came up with that. Quote To turn around and say that a nonbeliever is permanently doomed (I know you are not saying that, but some do) or that a person who once believed and who longer does, never believed in the first place, does not add up. Actually saying that a person who no longer believes never believed in the first place makes perfect sense and is the truth. Salvation is a transformation of the heart, making it impossible for a true Christian to forsake the Lord. In fact John makes that exact argument: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1Jn 2:18-19) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted December 15, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 15, 2015 15 hours ago, Kan said: You took the words right out of my keyboard. Yep, Judas believed, but was not fully surrendered to Jesus. I wonder how many of us are. So how can we be sure we are saved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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