SINNERSAVED Posted December 13, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 6 Topic Count: 150 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,195 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 2,409 Days Won: 14 Joined: 07/30/2015 Status: Offline Author Share Posted December 13, 2015 2 hours ago, bopeep1909 said: I am also a believer in OSAS.I do not want to debate this either.That is just what the Bible tells me. BoPEEP if you want to believe that ,OSAS, that is your choice and to tell you the truth , no one can tell you it is right or wrong, for it is really up to the individual and his heart and mind to the call of God, and it is between that person and God, and none of us can really say different , because we are all sinners said by grace, and we all work out our own salvation, so blessings to you my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllTheGoodNamesAreTaken Posted December 13, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,379 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted December 13, 2015 Debate is wholesome if the intention of those involved is to glorify God and edify His children. I personally can't box this discussion into a nice neat catch-phrase, because I think it is bigger than that. God's grace and mercy cannot be undone or outdone, for those who have been born of His Spirit, as it compels us, and reminds us, guides us. We gave our lives to HIM, and therefore they belong to HIM, and not us. That's what our rebirth is; Born of flesh, died to the flesh, reborn in the Spirit of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghtan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 422 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 216 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 On 12/11/2015, 12:47:55, Qnts2 said: I know of a person who became convinced of Jesus by watching the rock opera, Jesus Christ Superstar. That was definitely not a Christian play, and it was not written by a Christian. So, it would be the same question. How could a person receive the miracle of salvation from a non-Christian play by a non-believing author? Miracles are not done by people. Miracles are done by God. Judas was not able to do miracles. Neither are we or anyone else. God gets the glory for all miracles. Sorry for the late reply. There is a difference between miracles done TO a person and miracles done BY a person. The former can happen to anybody but the latter, if done in the name of Jesus, can be done only by a genuine believer. As you say, it is God who actually does the miracle. The bible indicates God listens only to those who are genuine believers. The psalmist said so (Ps 66:18) and even the blind beggar understood that (John 9:31). So Judas could not have been an unbeliever and do miracles. That is why some wish to deny he did miracles. But given Mk 6:13 says they the apostles (without qualification) healed many and cast out many demons, the default interpretation must be that they ALL did so. If you think Judas alone did not, the onus is really on you to provide evidence for it. But picture this: as the other apostles were healing the sick and casting out demons, Judas alone could do none of that. He would have stood out like a sore thumb! Surely they would have noticed the difference and realised he was not a true believer. Then they would have easily guessed that Jesus was referring to Judas when he said at the last supper that someone would betray him. But they did not. So, all signs are that there was no discernible difference between Judas and the other apostles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 1 hour ago, ghtan said: Sorry for the late reply. There is a difference between miracles done TO a person and miracles done BY a person. The former can happen to anybody but the latter, if done in the name of Jesus, can be done only by a genuine believer. As you say, it is God who actually does the miracle. The bible indicates God listens only to those who are genuine believers. The psalmist said so (Ps 66:18) and even the blind beggar understood that (John 9:31). So Judas could not have been an unbeliever and do miracles. That is why some wish to deny he did miracles. But given Mk 6:13 says they the apostles (without qualification) healed many and cast out many demons, the default interpretation must be that they ALL did so. If you think Judas alone did not, the onus is really on you to provide evidence for it. But picture this: as the other apostles were healing the sick and casting out demons, Judas alone could do none of that. He would have stood out like a sore thumb! Surely they would have noticed the difference and realised he was not a true believer. Then they would have easily guessed that Jesus was referring to Judas when he said at the last supper that someone would betray him. But they did not. So, all signs are that there was no discernible difference between Judas and the other apostles. You are wrong. The Bible says that Judas was not a believer. "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. He then addressed the 12 disciples and said, "'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him" (John 6:64, 70-71) Early in Jesus' ministry we see that Judas was already singled out as a "devil." That's not how you would describe a believer. God is sovereign and if God wanted Judas to do miracles he could have empowered Judas to do so, even if he was not a believer. God can use anyone as He sees fit. So this standard you have erected, namely that he did miracles doesn't really reflect the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 OSAS is not a Biblical phrase, but it generates some thoughts in people which are both false and true. Our faith teaches that we are saved in God's eternal love and purpose for us, and that we should praise God with the assurance of eternal life. We should not talk down the power of God's gift in us through Christ. Once we have accepted the Lord into our hearts and lives, we are to consider ourselves dead unto sin and alive unto Christ, fully believing, fully trusting, obedient by love, and having a sure hope of the future. At the same time, only a fool thinks he is immune to temptation and sin, and failure. Jesus never preached OSAS, He called for repentance,and asked the believers to watch and pray lest they fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 1 minute ago, Kan said: OSAS is not a Biblical phrase, but it generates some thoughts in people which are both false and true. Our faith teaches that we are saved in God's eternal love and purpose for us, and that we should praise God with the assurance of eternal life. We should not talk down the power of God's gift in us through Christ. Once we have accepted the Lord into our hearts and lives, we are to consider ourselves dead unto sin and alive unto Christ, fully believing, fully trusting, obedient by love, and having a sure hope of the future. At the same time, only a fool thinks he is immune to temptation and sin, and failure. And only a fool declares that once he has been saved, he cannot be lost. And only a fool will say that those who once believed, but fell away, never believed in the first place. There are some people who are even bigger fools, they actually tell others that they will never be lost, yet it is plain that they have very bad spiritual breath. Ready to condemn, ready to light the fires of the stake, to burn other people made in the image of God. OSAS is really important for people who are obsessed with the saving of their own backsides, and therefor they cannot be saved, because they are totally self centered, they are slaves to the curse of sin, and the opposite of what the Gospel is supposed to do for them. Jesus never preached OSAS, He called for repentance,and asked the believers to watch and pray lest they fall. Watch and pray that they don't fall for demonic gimmicks like OSAS. OSAS is a perversion of Eternal Security. Jesus DID teach eternal security. OSAS is a phrase generated by the enemies of the biblical doctrine of eternal security because OSAS is meant to convey the idea that once you're saved, you can sin as much as you want and remain saved. It is meant to convey a license to sin. But Eternal Security is predicated on the biblical teaching that a saved person is transformed person who doesn't look for ways to sin, who has no inner desire to sin. It doesn't mean we don't stumble occasionally in a sincere attempt to serve God, but neither do we follow after sin. A truly saved person will never forsake the Lord, will never walk away from he faith. A truly saved person pursues holiness and is motivated by an inner desire to please God. Eternal security is also based on the faithfulness of God in that He is not going to change his mind. I am eternally secure, not because I lived good enough to deserve salvation, but because God is faithful. If I have to live good enough to stay saved, I am proclaiming my acts of righteousness to be on par with Jesus' work on the cross, which is pretty arrogant. Nothing we do is ever good enough to keep us saved. If I remain saved by what I do or don't do, it is saying that Jesus isn't enough. It is saying that the cross was insufficient. If I am saved by what I do, then I am making myself the Savior instead of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: OSAS is a perversion of Eternal Security. Jesus DID teach eternal security. OSAS is a phrase generated by the enemies of the biblical doctrine of eternal security because OSAS is meant to convey the idea that once you're saved, you can sin as much as you want and remain saved. It is meant to convey a license to sin. But Eternal Security is predicated on the biblical teaching that a saved person is transformed person who doesn't look for ways to sin, who has no inner desire to sin. It doesn't mean we don't stumble occasionally in a sincere attempt to serve God, but neither do we follow after sin. A truly saved person will never forsake the Lord, will never walk away from he faith. A truly saved person pursues holiness and is motivated by an inner desire to please God. Eternal security is also based on the faithfulness of God in that He is not going to change his mind. I am eternally secure, not because I lived good enough to deserve salvation, but because God is faithful. If I have to live good enough to stay saved, I am proclaiming my acts of righteousness to be on par with Jesus' work on the cross, which is pretty arrogant. Nothing we do is ever good enough to keep us saved. If I remain saved by what I do or don't do, it is saying that Jesus isn't enough. It is saying that the cross was insufficient. If I am saved by what I do, then I am making myself the Savior instead of Jesus. That's right, it depends from which end we look at it, at God's end salvation is sure, on our end we need to be careful not to look elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 1 minute ago, Kan said: That's right, it depends from which end we look at it, at God's end salvation is sure, on our end we need to be careful not to look elsewhere. No it doesn't depend on which end we look at it. For the genuine follower of Jesus there is no loss of salvation, and there cannot be, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted December 14, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted December 14, 2015 1 minute ago, shiloh357 said: No it doesn't depend on which end we look at it. For the genuine follower of Jesus there is no loss of salvation, and there cannot be, ever. You are disagreeing with someone that agrees with you. Hello Shiloh, nice talking with you again. Sometimes I wonder if I am writing in Dutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 9 minutes ago, Kan said: You are disagreeing with someone that agrees with you. Hello Shiloh, nice talking with you again. Sometimes I wonder if I am writing in Dutch. No, I am disagreeing with saying that "it depends on which way you look at it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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