Old Covenant vs New Covenant

[thereselittleflower]

   

24 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Israel has a wide range of weather. Around Bethlehem is a temperate climate. In December, it is in the 50's and 60's. During the summer months up to October is the dry season, with little to no rain. Everything dries up. No grass in September or October for grazing. It takes the rainy season which doesn't start until the end of October, and a couple of weeks of rain to cause the grass to begin to re-grow. In December, the hills around Bethlehem is in full bloom. 

I have read the arguments for a birth around Sukkoth. I have looked at scripture, and the environment. Some claim that shepherds would not be out with sheep in Dec because it is too snowy and cold. That is not true because Bethlehem is a temperate climate. There are areas in Israel where they ski in December, but definitely not Bethlehem. Too many of the arguments are based on false information. There is the argument based on the Priestly courses, but important information is ignored to slant the outcome. Each Priestly course is every 24 weeks, or twice a year. Most ignore that they occur twice a year, and all Priests serve during Passover. After all of this research, I found that December was a possible time. December can not be eliminated, but during the time around Succoth, there is maybe a 10% chance, it could be correct, if the normal weather is drastically off for that year.  But, in scripture, Succoth is not fulfilled by Jesus birth, and there is no significance tying Succoth to Jesus birth. Succoth is tied to the end times. It is more likely, that Jesus was born in December, or around Passover.  

Thank you for that information.  I am really enjoying reading your posts.

 

[Deborah_]

Many years ago, I visited Israel at Christmas. On Christmas Day we were in Galilee, and I remember it was warm enough just to wear T-shirts and shorts. On Boxing Day we went to Jerusalem and Bethlehem, and it was still pleasantly warm.

[Shar]

1 hour ago, Qnts2 said:

Israel has a wide range of weather. Around Bethlehem is a temperate climate. In December, it is in the 50's and 60's. During the summer months up to October is the dry season, with little to no rain. Everything dries up. No grass in September or October for grazing. It takes the rainy season which doesn't start until the end of October, and a couple of weeks of rain to cause the grass to begin to re-grow. In December, the hills around Bethlehem is in full bloom. 

I have read the arguments for a birth around Sukkoth. I have looked at scripture, and the environment. Some claim that shepherds would not be out with sheep in Dec because it is too snowy and cold. That is not true because Bethlehem is a temperate climate. There are areas in Israel where they ski in December, but definitely not Bethlehem. Too many of the arguments are based on false information. There is the argument based on the Priestly courses, but important information is ignored to slant the outcome. Each Priestly course is every 24 weeks, or twice a year. Most ignore that they occur twice a year, and all Priests serve during Passover. After all of this research, I found that December was a possible time. December can not be eliminated, but during the time around Succoth, there is maybe a 10% chance, it could be correct, if the normal weather is drastically off for that year.  But, in scripture, Succoth is not fulfilled by Jesus birth, and there is no significance tying Succoth to Jesus birth. Succoth is tied to the end times. It is more likely, that Jesus was born in December, or around Passover.  

I noticed the article did support the priestly duties as you stated.  Yes, definitely, Succoth is tied to the end times and the complete fullness is yet to come.  But, I also find it interesting that there is a reference to His name meaning "God tabernacles with us".  There was also no room in the inn, which could be a good reason, because Succoth is one of the pilgrimage feasts Jewish males must make to Jerusalem.  Joseph could have most likely wanted to "kill 2 birds with one stone" and make the trip to complete the required census, along with the required Feast.  In that case, it would not be December, but late September, early October.  There is some logic to assume so.  Thanks for reading it and giving me your opinion.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Shar

[Qnts2]

9 minutes ago, Shar said:

I noticed the article did support the priestly duties as you stated.  Yes, definitely, Succoth is tied to the end times and the complete fullness is yet to come.  But, I also find it interesting that there is a reference to His name meaning "God tabernacles with us".  There was also no room in the inn, which could be a good reason, because Succoth is one of the pilgrimage feasts Jewish males must make to Jerusalem.  Joseph could have most likely wanted to "kill 2 birds with one stone" and make the trip to complete the required census, along with the required Feast.  In that case, it would not be December, but late September, early October.  There is so logic to assume so.  Thanks for reading it and giving me your opinion.

Yes, Succoth was a time when travel to Jerusalem was required. In or around December is also a time when Jerusalem has a large number of people due to Channukah, the feast of dedication at the Temple in Jerusalem. Also Passover was probably the most crowded time, and Shavuot was crowded as a required time in Jerusalem.  

Just a side note, Bethlehem is not that far from Jerusalem, so those travelling to Jerusalem might stay in Bethlehem.

Succoth, being the Feast of Booths or tabernacles, is one of the final Holy Days in the yearly cycle. When Jesus returns to reign, He will be tabernacling among us.

Historically, a person named Hyppolytus (ca. 170-236) claimed that Jesus was born on December 25. That is early. I have read another argument that there was a confusion with Dec 25th and the Jewish calendar day of Kislev 25th, which is the feast of dedication (Chanukah). So, some do claim Chanukah. Others claim a spring birth, around Passover. I find the weakest argument to be Succoth, but oddly, that one has gained some popularity.

 

[Shar]

3 hours ago, thereselittleflower said:

Do you use a wedding ring?

Do you know wedding rings are of pagan origin?

 

  

 

I'm glad you were able to get it to work and it helped.   Sounds like a lot of steps but once you get how to do it, it's fast.

 

Joseph, who worshipped the one true God of Israel, accepted a ring from Pharaoh as a symbol of his high office.  The prodigal son that Jesus spoke of was given a ring by his father to celebrate his returning son.  Pagans did not own the idea of giving a ring to symbolize an important event or covenant.

[Shar]

2 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Yes, Succoth was a time when travel to Jerusalem was required. In or around December is also a time when Jerusalem has a large number of people due to Channukah, the feast of dedication at the Temple in Jerusalem. Also Passover was probably the most crowded time, and Shavuot was crowded as a required time in Jerusalem.  

Just a side note, Bethlehem is not that far from Jerusalem, so those travelling to Jerusalem might stay in Bethlehem.

Succoth, being the Feast of Booths or tabernacles, is one of the final Holy Days in the yearly cycle. When Jesus returns to reign, He will be tabernacling among us.

Historically, a person named Hyppolytus (ca. 170-236) claimed that Jesus was born on December 25. That is early. I have read another argument that there was a confusion with Dec 25th and the Jewish calendar day of Kislev 25th, which is the feast of dedication (Chanukah). So, some do claim Chanukah. Others claim a spring birth, around Passover. I find the weakest argument to be Succoth, but oddly, that one has gained some popularity.

 

I have heard the possibility of Chanukah as well.  I am always skeptical when historical figures make claims when He was born.  I want those issues to be proved out in Scriptures.  Maybe it is not so clear for a reason.  Is it not true that then, historically, Jews did not celebrate birthdays.  That birthdays were normally celebrations for pagan kings?

[thereselittleflower]

7 hours ago, Shar said:

Joseph, who worshipped the one true God of Israel, accepted a ring from Pharaoh as a symbol of his high office.  The prodigal son that Jesus spoke of was given a ring by his father to celebrate his returning son.  Pagans did not own the idea of giving a ring to symbolize an important event or covenant.

Pharaoh gave Jospeh a ring . . . but it wasn't the act of a pagan?     Are you saying Pharaoh was not a pagan?

 

[Shar]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

Pharaoh gave Jospeh a ring . . . but it wasn't the act of a pagan.     Are you saying Pharaoh was not a pagan?

 

I don't understand your question.  Pharaoh was pagan.  Simply stating, the act of giving a ring to mark a special occasion was not unique to that culture.  It was also practiced in the Bible.  Hence, my examples of Joseph and the prodigal son.

[Spock]

38 minutes ago, Shar said:

I don't understand your question.  Pharaoh was pagan.  Simply stating, the act of giving a ring to mark a special occasion was not unique to that culture.  It was also practiced in the Bible.  Hence, my examples of Joseph and the prodigal son.

Shar, are you enjoying this dialog? this conversation seems to get further and further away from where it started. Good luck sister, you have the patience of Job. 

[thereselittleflower]

29 minutes ago, Shar said:

I don't understand your question.  Pharaoh was pagan.  Simply stating, the act of giving a ring to mark a special occasion was not unique to that culture.  It was also practiced in the Bible.  Hence, my examples of Joseph and the prodigal son.

You put the emphasis on Joseph RECEIVING the ring, but this ignores that the ring did not originate with Joseph, but with Pharaoh, who was pagan, who was using a ritual that was long used in the Egyptian culture long before Joseph was even born.    The receiving doesn't change the fact that The GIVING of the ring was a pagan custom.  

You asked at the start of this exchange between us:

• would it then be OK for me to adopt a modern day Pagan celebration as long as I substitute God for Their False God in their liturgy and pray to God instead of Their False God? 

 

In your words above you said:

• Joseph, who worshipped the one true God of Israel, accepted a ring from Pharaoh as a symbol of his high office.  The prodigal son that Jesus spoke of was given a ring by his father to celebrate his returning son.  Pagans did not own the idea of giving a ring to symbolize an important event or covenant.

 

There is no mention of rings in the bible until Pharaoh gave this ring to Joseph.

Rings to mark special occasions were introduced to the Hebrews by the pagan Egyptian culture.   The use of rings to mark special occasions were an invention of the pagans.

As we move forward in scripture, there are more examples of rings in pagan cultures - and none so far in the Hebrew culture:

• Est 3:10	And the king took his ring from his hand, and gave it unto Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, the Jews' enemy.
  	Est 3:12	Then were the king's scribes called on the thirteenth day of the first month, and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors thatwere over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring.
  	Est 8:2	And the king took off his ring, which he had taken from Haman, and gave it unto Mordecai. And Esther set Mordecai over the house of Haman.
  	Est 8:8	Write ye also for the Jews, as it liketh you, in the king's name, and seal it with the king's ring: for the writing which is written in the king's name, and sealed with the king's ring, may no man reverse.
  	Est 8:10	And he wrote in the king Ahasuerus' name, and sealed it with the king's ring, and sent letters by posts on horseback, and riders on mules, camels, and young dromedaries

 

And there is never any mention of rings being used in the Hebrew culture.

The next mention of rings in the bible is in Luke:

 

• Luk 15:22	But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
  	Jas 2:2	For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

 

So now we see it incorporated as an acceptable practice in Hebrew culture.

 

But it originated with the pagans.

It is an example of a pagan practice that was given acceptable significance in Hebrew, then Christian culture.    I think scripture here answers your original question above with a "YES."