thereselittleflower Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.67 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 5 minutes ago, Qnts2 said: Those are interpretations and not what it actually says. Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. That is a complete sentence, with no qualifiers. You shall not make a graven image. Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. That one lists all of the prohibition. Make no idol, or graven image, of stand one up, or set it up in your land to bow/kneel, down to it. So as I said before, making a graven image is against the law, standing one up, or bowing down to it. Deut 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. I can see how you would come to that understanding if the passage is stripped of its historical context, and the surrounding scriptural context, but in its historical context, a graven image is something very specific - something intended to be an idol. The context of that verse is laid on in the verse before it Exo 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me. That is the scriptural context. These verses are all about the same thing: Exo 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exo 20:4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourthgeneration of them that hate me; The proof of this is in the images the Jewish people used in worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 1 minute ago, thereselittleflower said: I can see how you would come to that understanding if the passage is stripped of its historical context, and the surrounding scriptural context, but in its historical context, a graven image is something very specific - something intended to be an idol. The context of that verse is laid on in the verse before it Exo 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me. That is the scriptural context. These verses are all about the same thing: Exo 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exo 20:4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourthgeneration of them that hate me; The proof of this is in the images the Jewish people used in worship. The images the Jewish people had, were not used in worship/prayer. They were commanded by God. So if God specifically commanded an image be made for the Temple, and described exactly what it should appear to be, along with the materials to be used by selected craftsmen and then God say make no graven images, to be obedient to God, you who are not the selected craftsmen, make absolutely no graven images. There is no wiggle room on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.67 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 Just now, Qnts2 said: The images the Jewish people had, were not used in worship/prayer. They were commanded by God. So if God specifically commanded an image be made for the Temple, and described exactly what it should appear to be, along with the materials to be used by selected craftsmen and then God say make no graven images, to be obedient to God, you who are not the selected craftsmen, make absolutely no graven images. There is no wiggle room on this. I have not found any command by God for Solomon to put the images he used in the Temple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 5 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: I have not found any command by God for Solomon to put the images he used in the Temple. The Tabernacle existed prior to the Temple. Exo 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, ... Exo 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exo 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. Exo 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. Exo 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. Exo 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. Exo 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was showed thee in the mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.67 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 Just now, Qnts2 said: The Tabernacle existed prior to the Temple. Exo 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, ... Exo 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. Exo 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. Exo 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. Exo 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. Exo 25:22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. Exo 25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was showed thee in the mount. Of course it did. And Solomon's temple was full of images carved and cast. But none of this addresses the context of the verse not to make graven images. The context is concerning other gods - idols. Not any image carved or cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 17 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said: Of course it did. And Solomon's temple was full of images carved and cast. But none of this addresses the context of the verse not to make graven images. The context is concerning other gods - idols. Not any image carved or cast. You are repeating what I have already shown to be incorrect. The prohibition against making graven images stands by itself as a command. Do not make any graven image of anything on the earth or in heaven. It is repeated by itself many times in scripture. Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereselittleflower Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 5,457 Content Per Day: 1.67 Reputation: 4,220 Days Won: 37 Joined: 07/01/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 27 minutes ago, Qnts2 said: You are repeating what I have already shown to be incorrect. The prohibition against making graven images stands by itself as a command. Do not make any graven image of anything on the earth or in heaven. It is repeated by itself many times in scripture. Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. I simply disagree that you have proven what you claim to have proven. This is simply prooftexting, taking one verse out of its context and ignoring the context, even in the verse itself. This is what I find when we break this verse down: 1) You shall make you a) no idols b) nor graven image c) neither rear you up a standing image d) neither shall you set up any image of stone in your land 2) to bow down to it For I am the Lord your God. So the prohibition is specifically regarding "to bow down to it" as in worship - why? For I am the Lord your God. That is the limit of the command even in the context of the verse itself. Now looking at the greater context of the verse itself, in the passage it is found in, it's important to keep in mind that there were no chapters or verses in the original texts. This is important, for the chapter designation here makes an artificial devide between verse 1 and the last verse of the previous chapter. They were originally meant to be read together. So disregarding this artificial division we see: I am the LORD your God. You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God. 'You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD. These echo the first commandments we see in Ex 20. 2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3“You shall have no other gods beforea me. 4“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7“You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. This prohibition against images is against idols, images that were made for the express purpose to be treated as gods to worship as gods. That's all. If we still disagree we can agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 This is not directed to anyone in particular, but is general information on the topic of idols and graven images. In various verses, God forbids turning to other gods. 2 Chron 16:26 For all the gods of the people are idols: but the Lord made the heavens. In the verse saying that the gods are idols. What does that mean, literally. The Hebrew word translated as idols means 'no value'. God is showing the difference between gods and Himself. The gods are no value, in comparison to God, who made the heavens. I once took a college class in behavioral phsychology nicknamed 'rat lab'. By using rewards (pellets of food), we trained rats to do thing like pushing a lever, which would distribute food. We set the lever to count 10 pushes before a pellet of food would drop. One rat pushed the bar a 9 times, the turned away, and then turned back to push it the 10th time and received food. The rat related turning and pushing to receiving food. That poor rat started to spin and push, spin and push, thinking the spinning and pushing was what was required to receive the reward. Of course the spinning had nothing to do with getting food. The spinning was a superstition. Doing something to get a result which was actually of no real effect. Superstitions are of no value, or to use biblical terminology, they are an idol. Making a graven image is an entirely different word. Not all graven images are idols (no value). But all graven images are forbidden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1to3 Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 143 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,288 Content Per Day: 1.23 Reputation: 3,101 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 I don't pray to any given image, and I think in the catholic faith, as I grew up in it, the cross of Jesus for me was always a reminder symbol of what happened, and not that I was looking at the cross with the image of Christ Jesus on it and praying to the object. Rather looking at the cross for me is a reminder and a conscious reflection of the meaning the symbol of the cross represents while i may go into my own personal praying to God within my heart. However after my fathers passing when I was 13 years of age, my mother and me changed from the catholic faith to bible believing Christian faith and so my mother took off the body symbol that was in our home cross and just left the cross. I think she did this, to show that we were not worshiping graven images. We did not have any statues though of mother Mary or center stations in the home with many statues of worship, like some catholic homes do, especially Italian Catholics. The Jewish people place the mezuzah at the side of their front door, this usually contains within-it the 10 commandments and also in remembrance of the Passover when each Jewish household place the blood of a innocent lamb for protection over their house from the plague. Deuteronomy 6: 4-9 -4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is One! -5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might. -6 And these word which I command you today, shall be in your heart; -7 and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them, when you sit in your house,when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up, -8 you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be frontlets between your eyes. -9 you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates It is refereed to in the old testament as something every Jewish person should place at the side of their doorstep and entrance door (gates). Neither symbols cross or mezuzah, I don't think are used as worship items but rather as reminders of who they are and what that symbol represents in meaning to the believer. A couple of years ago, a family friend of mine, gave me a magnate item of a heart and in the heart was a cross. I decided to place (glue to the side of my front door entrance) that heart and cross within the heart magnate item, at the side of my own front door as a symbol of of what the cross represents for me: ( the is my own way of expressing my own faith) which for me is the new covenant and the two commandments Christ Jesus gave that encompass all ten commandments within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted January 13, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,281 Content Per Day: 3.31 Reputation: 16,688 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 13, 2016 My pioneer ancestors obeyed some of the laws concerning the land. One was a Christian of the Plymouth Brethren but he had not farmed the land until coming west, so he probably consulted the Bible to do so. But others were not Christian at all. But they let the land go fallow every 7th year and allowed the poor to glean in the corners of the fields. Perhaps to them it was for good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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