Is the doctrine of the Trinity biblical?

[JohnD]

1 minute ago, thereselittleflower said:

JohnD, the scriptures don't tell us to impute motives.   They tell us to believe the best in others not the worst.  This is not a "Catholic" issue.  It is a "how we learn" issue.

I have no agenda other than to promote understanding that someone reading scriptures alone can have a very hard time coming to a correct understanding of the Trinity.

As I said above, I have never met anyone who believes in the Trinity who came to that understanding all by themselves devoid of any influence outside of their reading of scripture.  In all cases it has been "Oh, I see where it is in scripture!" after it has been pointed out and explained.

 

 

 

The Law

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NASB95)

2 “You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

The Prophets

Revelation 22:18–19 (NASB95)

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

The Writings

Proverbs 30:5–6 (NASB95)

5 Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

6 Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (NASB95)

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

John 16:13 (NASB95)

13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Here's the method:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95)

21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95)

21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

Acts 17:11 (NASB95)

11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

No other methods are specified or condoned given 2 Peter 1:20 explicitly stating own interpretation / private interpretation is not valid... and btw ALL scripture came by this prophetic method.

 

[JohnD]

Whether or not we realize it, promoting the Trinity would be best served by allowing the Bible to do so.

[JohnD]

27 minutes ago, JohnD said:

It's the "helps" of man that keep mucking up the crystal clear waters of sound doctrine.

The so-called apostle's creed, for example, begins in error...

"I believe in God the Father Creator of heaven and Earth..."

John 1:14 (NASB95)

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The only thing God the Father created was the body of God the Son.

Hebrews 10:5 (NASB95)

5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me;

Jesus (preincarnate) is the LONE CREATOR of all things created in the beginning:

Isaiah 44:24 (NASB95)

24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone,

John 1:3 (NASB95)

3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 (NASB95)

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

And you will note that Isaiah 44:24 begins with he YHVH calling himself our kinsman redeemer (which the Father and the Holy Spirit cannot be since only God the Word became flesh). So Jesus is YHVH (the LORD, Jehovah, Yahweh).

The Father and the Spirit were present in the beginning at creation...

Genesis 1:2 (NASB95)

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

1 John 1:1–2 (NASB95)

1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—

2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

But God the Word acted alone in creation of all things created in the beginning.

The biblical distinction between the individuals of the Godhead teach and support the triune nature of the one God. The above is case in point about the Creator.

[thereselittleflower]

19 minutes ago, JohnD said:

Whether or not we realize it, promoting the Trinity would be best served by allowing the Bible to do so.

I had started to say you are incorrect about the history of the Trinity doctrine and its origins.   I went to look for a post, and it must have been in a thread I remember disappearing.

Here is the information again from the ECFs in the centuries predating the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century - we see even the term "Trinity" being used in the 2nd century:

 

• Athenagoras

   

  For, as we acknowledge a God, and a Son his Logos, and a Holy Spirit, united in essence, - the Father, the Son, the Spirit because the Son is intelligence, reason, wisdom of the Father, and the Spirit an effluence, as light from fire; so also do we apprehend the existence of other powers, which exercise dominion about matter, and by means of it (A Plea for the Christians, 2:18 [A.D. 177]).

  Irenaeus

  For the Son, who is the Word of God, arranged these things beforehand from the beginning, the Father being in no want of angels, in order that He might call the creation into being, and form man, for whom also the creation was made; nor, again, standing in need of any instrumentality for the framing of created things, or for the ordering of those things which had reference to man; while, [at the same time,] He has a vast and unspeakable number of servants.  For His offspring and His similitude do minister to Him in every respect; that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and Wisdom; whom all the angels serve, and to whom they are subject (Against Heresies 4:7:4 [A.D. 189]).

   

  Theophilus of Antioch

   

  The three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His Wisdom (To Autolycus 2:18 [A.D. 181]).

   

  Clement of Alexandria

  And the address in the Timœus calls the creator, Father, speaking thus:  ‘Ye gods of gods, of whom I am Father; and the Creator of your works.’  So that when he says, ‘Around the king of all, all things are, and because of Him are all things; and he [or that] is the cause of all good things; and around the second are the things second in order; and around the third, the third,’ I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father (The Stromata 5:14 [A.D. 202]).

  Hippolytus

  A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three. But if he desires to learn how it is shown still that there is one God, let him know that His power is one. As far as regards the power, therefore, God is one. But as far as regards the economy there is a threefold manifestation, as shall be proved afterwards when we give account of the true doctrine (Against the Heresy of One Noetus 8 [A.D. 200-210]).

  Tertullian

  …All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons – the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost:  three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost  (Against Praxeus 2 [A.D. 213]).

   

  …all the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in (the Persons of) the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith….  (ibid. 11[A.D. 213]).

   

  Origen

   

  …the divine benefits [are] bestowed upon us by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which Trinity is the fountain of all holiness….  (On First Principles 1:4:2 [A.D. 225]).

   

  And under this rule must be brought also the understanding of the sacred Scripture, in order that its statements may be judged not according to the worthlessness of the letter, but according to the divinity of the Holy Spirit, by whose inspiration they were caused to be written (ibid. 4:27).

   

  Now this expression which we employ – ‘that there never was a time when He did not exist’ – is to be understood with an allowance.  For these very words ‘when’ or ‘never’ have a meaning that relates to time, whereas the statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity.  For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages (ibid. 4:28).

   

  Gregory Thaumaturgus

   

  There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides forever (Declaration of Faith [circa A.D. 250]).

 

 

So you sees the Council of Nicaea introduced nothing, but protected what had already been taught for centuries.  The Catholic Church didn't "discover" it at the Council of Nicaea - which was an Ecumenical Council held in the East by the way, convened in Bithynia - on the eatern edge of the Roman Empire, which isn't close to Rome at all.

 

 

 

 

 

[gdemoss]

God is God.  There is none other beside God.  Jesus came out of God.  The Holy Spirit came out of God.  The two afore mentioned are representatives that declare the Father without err.  The only thing that matters is God.

The need to define the triunity of God in the past has done a lot of damage in me due to the inherant nature of my flesh to through the pride of life.  It hasn't much of anything to do with preaching the good news to the poor so that they too may have a relationship with God the Father through Jesus his only begotton son.

Just as was said in the OP when John admitted that the topic normally brings about debate and strife, it doesn't really edify but rather divides brethren.  How does it help the whore to stop whoring?  Or keep the drunkard sober?  Does it somehow aid the theif to stop stealing?  

How does it minister to the hearts of the broken?

In my ministry work I take inventory of the persons condition. Many do not know if God exists much less whether God had any children.  They are separated from God entirely.  Many more believe in God but have a vast many questions about God.  All of which pertain to the morality of God.  Never the trinity.  Then there are those who believe in God and in the Son but have an impotent Jesus who is truly not Lord of Lords and King of Kings.  Jesus does not really help them with anything.  He will only be there supposedly at the judgment to wave them in after they die.

I teach those I minister to that they need God.  God begins working in their hearts preparing them for the day he will reveal his Son unto them.  None can know that Jesus is the Christ except God reveal this to them.  But I minister and they grow.  When the time is right God reveals more unto them.  I watch as whores, drug addicts, drunkards, theives and liars lives are restored by bringing them to God.  They eventually call upon Him by name, Jehovah is Salvation, or Jesus which is the same.

Is a working knowledge of the trinity really what we need to spend our time doing?  Haven't we enough people unsaved and dying who need our ministering?

We were warned to push away from the table and get out into the field because the harvest is ripe yet more and more are dying everyday not having known God, nor His Son or tasted the love, joy and peace of the Spirit of eternal life.  If we are not careful we become those who love long robes and attention over restored lost people.

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

16 minutes ago, gdemoss said:

God is God.  There is none other beside God.  Jesus came out of God.  The Holy Spirit came out of God.  The two afore mentioned are representatives that declare the Father without err.  The only thing that matters is God.

The need to define the triunity of God in the past has done a lot of damage in me due to the inherant nature of my flesh to through the pride of life.  It hasn't much of anything to do with preaching the good news to the poor so that they too may have a relationship with God the Father through Jesus his only begotton son.

Just as was said in the OP when John admitted that the topic normally brings about debate and strife, it doesn't really edify but rather divides brethren.  How does it help the whore to stop whoring?  Or keep the drunkard sober?  Does it somehow aid the theif to stop stealing?  

How does it minister to the hearts of the broken?

In my ministry work I take inventory of the persons condition. Many do not know if God exists much less whether God had any children.  They are separated from God entirely.  Many more believe in God but have a vast many questions about God.  All of which pertain to the morality of God.  Never the trinity.  Then there are those who believe in God and in the Son but have an impotent Jesus who is truly not Lord of Lords and King of Kings.  Jesus does not really help them with anything.  He will only be there supposedly at the judgment to wave them in after they die.

I teach those I minister to that they need God.  God begins working in their hearts preparing them for the day he will reveal his Son unto them.  None can know that Jesus is the Christ except God reveal this to them.  But I minister and they grow.  When the time is right God reveals more unto them.  I watch as whores, drug addicts, drunkards, theives and liars lives are restored by bringing them to God.  They eventually call upon Him by name, Jehovah is Salvation, or Jesus which is the same.

Is a working knowledge of the trinity really what we need to spend our time doing?  Haven't we enough people unsaved and dying who need our ministering?

We were warned to push away from the table and get out into the field because the harvest is ripe yet more and more are dying everyday not having known God, nor His Son or tasted the love, joy and peace of the Spirit of eternal life.  If we are not careful we become those who love long robes and attention over restored lost people.

 

 

To say Jesus came out of God means that Jesus had a beginning.  To say the Holy Spirit comes out of God means the Holy Spirit had a beginning.

Is that what you're meaning to say?

 

[gdemoss]

59 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

To say Jesus came out of God means that Jesus had a beginning.  To say the Holy Spirit comes out of God means the Holy Spirit had a beginning.

Is that what you're meaning to say?

 

I am just repeating what scripture says.

[gdemoss]

1 hour ago, thereselittleflower said:

To say Jesus came out of God means that Jesus had a beginning.  To say the Holy Spirit comes out of God means the Holy Spirit had a beginning.

Is that what you're meaning to say?

 

To say that Jesus came out of God speaks of origination point before being sent not necessarily of beginnings.  

 

 

[thereselittleflower]

1 hour ago, gdemoss said:

To say that Jesus came out of God speaks of origination point before being sent not necessarily of beginnings.  

 

 

A point of origination means a point of beginning though.

I'm trying to understand if you believe God the Son had a beginning.

[gdemoss]

10 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

 

I hate the quote feature

I cannot use it well.

Christs ascension began at a point.  He went out from this world back to his father. This is all I am trying to convey.  Nothing more.  Point A to point B.