Why Lutherans Do Not Believe in the Rapture

[missmuffet]

17 hours ago, junobet said:

As I understand it the Saints and martyrs live right now and reign with Christ, all others will sleep till judgement day. Mind you: time gets probably very relative when you are dead.

No soul sleeps in the grave. All souls either go to heaven or hades immediately after death depending on if they were a born again Christian. You are talking about soul sleep and that is not Biblical. 

[thereselittleflower]

2 minutes ago, bopeep1909 said:

No soul sleeps in the grave. All souls either go to heaven or hades immediately after death depending on if they were a born again Christian. You are talking about soul sleep and that is not Biblical. 

Right, people mistake the "sleep" of the body -  a euphamism for death, for the state of the soul.   The soul does not sleep after the body dies.

 

 

[junobet]

11 hours ago, simplejeff said:

Read the Bible and see.   The world is pernicious.  Society is evil.   and getting much much worse daily.

Like Davida says: the Bible is whole and literal.  ((but you don't have to accept it)).

 

You must have overlooked that I just quoted the Bible to you. Genesis 1:31 clearly tells us that God’s creation is good.

I don’t doubt that the world is afflicted after our fall. But God’s answer to this fall is Jesus Christ. In Christ God reconciles the world to Himself and ours is the ministry of reconciliation:

“All of this comes from God, who has reconciled us to himself through the Messiah^[g] and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, ¹⁹ for through the Messiah,^[h] God was reconciling the world to himself by not counting their sins against them. He has committed his message of reconciliation to us. ²⁰ Therefore, we are the Messiah’s^[i] representatives, as though God were pleading through us. We plead on the Messiah’s^[j] behalf: “Be reconciled to God!” ²¹ God^[k] made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that God’s righteousness would be produced in us.” (2 Cor. 5:18-21)

So if God’s righteousness is produced in us, we ought to be able to be good stewards of this earth as we are told to be in Genesis: http://www.christianethicstoday.com/cetart/index.cfm?fuseaction=Articles.main&ArtID=1172.

IMHO,  good Christians do not declare God’s creation as inherently evil and bound for decay, they do not fold their hands in their laps whilst waiting for catastrophes and wars taking their course or even cheering them on in the kind of escapist mindset that the  belief in pre-tribulation rapture obviously encourages. Instead we are called to cherish God’s creation, to better our societies and to see to it that God’s will is not only done in heaven but also on earth. This is what we pray for in the Lord’s prayer.

 

Love,

junobet

[junobet]

10 hours ago, Davida said:

You got it all wrong , I had no "teachers" , I praying & was reading the Bible and realized the contradiction between what was being taught and what was written in the scripture.  I realized the teaching was wrong, & that we are not to change what was intended in scripture or interpret the message of the Bible for modern times. The Holy Spirit lead me to leave that denomination seeking for a Church that only taught from scripture and had no adornments and man made rituals. I call no man reverend  nor master , lord or rabbi, or priest-- but my Savior JESUS CHRIST is Lord, Master, heavenly High Priest.  The bible says God's name is holy and reverend.

Psalm111:9  He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend is His name."

Junobet said: "Taking the Bible 100% literally you’d just enjoy Revelation’s literal horror-film-features such as seven headed beasts with ten horns, dragons, locusts with human faces (…) + you’d end up believing that the earth actually stands on pillars and has 4 corners ."
As for your quote above, is that a serious view? Is that what you think we who take the Bible "literally" or as the fundamental truth means?  and you used the adjective 'endtimes crazed rapture ready Christians"? It is quite insulting and misguided the way you portray those that choose to follow the Bible as the literal word of God. Because it is the world that teaches that. Born again bible believing following Evangelical Christians are hated by the world. The Worldly denominations aren't hated by the world.

John 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you".…Btw, Jesus believed the O.T. and took the Bible literally. 

Got questions explains it quite clearly http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-literal.html

Question: "Can / Should we interpret the Bible as literal?"

Answer: Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

One reason we should take the Bible literally is because the Lord Jesus Christ took it literally. Whenever the Lord Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, it was always clear that He believed in its literal interpretation. As an example, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke 4, He answered by quoting the Old Testament. If God’s commands in Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16 were not literal, Jesus would not have used them and they would have been powerless to stop Satan’s mouth, which they certainly did.

The disciples also took the commands of Christ (which are part of the Bible) literally. Jesus commanded the disciples to go and make more disciples in Matthew 28:19-20. In Acts 2 and following, we find that the disciples took Jesus' command literally and went throughout the known world of that time preaching the gospel of Christ and telling them to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Just as the disciples took Jesus’ words literally, so must we. How else can we be sure of our salvation if we do not believe Him when He says He came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), pay the penalty for our sin (Matthew 26:28), and provide eternal life (John 6:54)?

Although we take the Bible literally, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said "it is raining cats and dogs outside," you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example.)

Finally, when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that would inevitably result from such a system would essentially render the Scriptures null and void. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed—literally and completely."
 

Hi there Davida,

 

What I strongly suspect is that you used the Scofield Bible for your personal Bible studies and mistook its commentaries and references for what the Bible actually says. Or else you got subconsciously influenced by American Pop-culture with all its “Left Behind” nonsense. There’s a reason that no Christian ever came up with the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture before Darby: you can simply not find it in Scripture unless you twist Scripture in the most artificial ways that Darby twisted it in to accommodate a Scottish peasant-girl’s visions.

My point about reading the Bible literally was that – whatever they claim – evangelical fundamentalists (also a rather modern movement) clearly don’t read the Bible 100% literally. Instead they randomly pick and choose what to take literally and what not to take literally in order to make the Bible conform to their pre-conceived ideas.

As for Christ taking the OT literally: being a 1th century Jew He certainly did not take it literally in the ways modern day fundamentalists take it literally. Watch Him placing parts of scripture over others when debating with the Sadducees and  Pharisees and even placing His own proclamations over Scripture (“but I say to you …”). We are to read all Scripture in Christ’s light and in the light of its two highest commandments that He lined out for us in Mt 22:34-40.

Love, junobet

[junobet]

9 hours ago, Davida said:

Look around the world , do you really think we Christians are ruling with Christ now? ? The Bible does not say that, it says the whole world is under the thrall of the evil one.  1John 5:19 (NKJV) " We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one." 

The millennial rule of Christ and His saints,  is in the future after the great battle of Armageddon and after this is won by Christ,  the devil will be chained and imprisoned for 1000 years during the millennial rule.  That has not happened yet as should be obvious by the world condition of sin and depravity.

 

Read 1 John 5:18: “ We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them.”

Or – just for example - Eph. 1: 17-22: "I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah,the most glorious Father, would give you a wise spirit, along with revelation that comes through knowing the Messiah fully. ¹⁸ Then, with the eyes of your hearts enlightened, you will know the confidence that is produced by God having called you, the rich glory that is his inheritance among the saints, ¹⁹ and the unlimited greatness of his power for us who believe, according to the working of his mighty strength, ²⁰ which he brought about in the Messiah when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realm. ²¹ He is far above every ruler, authority, power, dominion, and every name that can be named, not only in the present age, but also in the one to come. ²² God has put everything under the Messiah’s feet and has made him the head of everything for the good of the church, ²³ which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills everything in every way."

Looking around the world I see Christ in every smile and every act of kindness. I see how the mustard-seed of faith that He planted, did indeed move mountains, when Martin Luther King had his dream or when the peace prayers in the Leipzig Nikolai-Church with its ensuing demonstrations eventually brought down the Berlin wall. I see Him even in our darkest hours. In Auschwitz he was right there with Maximilian Kolbe and in Christ it was Kolbe who was victorious, not his executioners.

 

Love,

junobet

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by junobet

[simplejeff]

In several decades in many chruches i never heard the gospel, or saw it.  it was truly a blessing  and miracle "SURPRISE! SALVATION COMES" - since everyone keeps telling everyone they're saved because they're in the right church.... not 

learning to "test" everything by God's WORD  until proven true,  and not learning to walk with Jesus, hand in hand, by faith in Him by His Grace ((even the Faith is a Gift from the Father in heaven, as it is written.))... 

not learning also, until meeting Jesus, as sheep, we KNOW HIS VOICE ((inside; His Promise, His Word)) and follow Him Daily.

((always,forever, in line with all of His Word:  in stark contrast to tb et al))

SHALOM SHALOM

[FresnoJoe]

As I See It,

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. Genesis 6:1-12

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37-39

Why Some Lutherans

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25

Do Not Believe in the Bible

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

And Why

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27

Some

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:31-22

Do

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6

Love, Your Brother Joe

[simplejeff]

A couple decades ago I 'found out' Lutheran, Baptist, and other such churches were infiltrated on purpose via seminaries to get pastors into them who would then cajole the churches back towards the world ecumenical position.

A few years ago a pastor(s) reported the govrnment had sent letters to all the pastors  offering them  protection, food, supplies, and so  on in the future when martial law is declared,  IF the pastor would teach the people to go along with the government direction willingly, ((like sheep led to the slaughter?))((worse: far far worse - what's the Bible say about trusting the gov and getting the mark to be able to get food and supplies ? ))

[junobet]

21 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

Quote

 

As I See It,

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. Genesis 6:1-12

 

junobet: please don't forget that this story ended with an olive.branch and a rainbow.

“For everything God created is good, and nothing should be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.” (1. Tim. 4:4+5)

The Bible very clearly tells us that God loves His creation including us. If we love God, we should love it, too, and be thankful and in awe of its amazing beauty.

But maybe we are not speaking about the same thing: of course the world was/is corrupted in that our selfish, greedy, loveless and vengeful human ways are corrupted. Being God’s creation we do have potential for good though: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Eph. 2:10.

 

Quote

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37-39

Indeed. And the Bible tells us that He’ll only come back once. It’s “the day of the Lord” that will come, not the days. (1Thess. 5:2)


 

Quote

Why Some Lutherans

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Romans 11:25

One of the passages that makes me hope for universal salvation. It goes on: “ … ³² For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”

 

 

Quote

Do Not Believe in the Bible

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

See our possible misunderstanding mentioned above. Most Lutherans I know strive for peace, social justice, and the protection of His creation not because the lust of the flesh but  because they believe that is doing God’s will. The Bible clearly tell us so.

 

Quote

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

 

It goes on:

““See, the tent of God is among humans!
    He will make his home with them,
        and they will be his people.
God himself will be with them,
    and he will be their God.^[a]
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes.
    There won’t be death anymore.
There won’t be any grief, crying, or pain,
    because the first things have disappeared.”

⁵ The one sitting on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new!”

He said, “Write this: ‘These words are trustworthy and true.’”

⁶ Then he told me, “It has happened! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will freely give a drink from the spring of the water of life to the one who is thirsty.”

This is part of my Churches Easter liturgy, when the Easter candle is lit: " Jesus Christ, yesterday and today, the beginning and the ending, Alpha and Omega; all time belongs to him, and all ages; to him be glory and dominion forever and ever."

Quote

And Why

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27

Some

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jeremiah 31:31-22

That would be the new covenant Hebrews speaks of referencing these very verses from Jeremiah in chapter 8 and 10: according to Hebrews this new covenant has been sealed with the blood of Christ and renders the Mosaic one obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).

Love,

junobet

 

[junobet]

15 hours ago, Davida said:

We are supposed to walk in Truth and not error. 

There is a difference between when Jesus  told His followers it would be difficult to follow Him and misinterpreting the scripture and calling THIS time that we are living in right now the Millennial Reign with CHRIST.  You are using two very different messages that were referring to different things to support your wrong beliefs.  Unfortunately yourself and obviously someone else on the board  who "liked" your wrong interpretation of Jesus words and the Prophetic words in Rev. do not understand how to apply Bible Scripture to the present. You are expressing confusion and a message of error.  The Holy Spirit teaches  Christians to interpret the Bible when people are truly saved. It is a sure sign when the most basic of understanding is not present.  This is one of the reasons why so many denominations & churches within them  that spring up and teach error. Not all Seminaries have Biblically sound curriculum & of course there are some in Seminary who unknowingly , are not saved Christians and they will find a Church somewhere and preach in error.   

 John 16:13 " Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

Well, I'm just telling you what the church has preached from its beginnings. The idea of an easy  Pre-Tribulation-rapture-ticket  first came up in the 19th century. But feel free to believe that in 2000 years of Christianity you guys were the first to have really sussed it and that all other Christians before you weren't truly saved. 

 

Edited February 5, 2016 by junobet