Greed, oppressing the poor and the wage earner

[Guest Thallasa]

It is difficult for someone outside of a country to know the détails of employment ,so will say no more except to say that yes there are people who see the bottle half empty ,and others see it half full . Those in the latter situation are the winners for they make the most of any given situation, not looking at others and comparing,but challenging themselves to  face difficulties  .

I think from what I have heard ,it is when someone has  serious illness that the system falls down ,as this makes it impossible with an average wage, to  ever catch up, and this why I would want a basic but good  free health system  ,which can be topped up by private insurance for more cosmetic things ,and private rooms etc .This is the U.K. system, and it is basic neccessity in a civilised country . 

Also  since  one cannot become Mega rich  without lying , manipulating , exploiting ,and also abusing power in government ,  no christian should be making heroes of such people  .

I find it ironic, that people who say they are christians often vote for the richest, most carnal of people . Strange .

 

[Guest Thallasa]

13 hours ago, Ezra said:

You've raised a very good point. Should employers be concerned with the wellbeing of their employees? Is that biblical?  Since not all employers are Christians, can this be promoted on a purely selfish basis?

It is always amazing to see how short-sighted and greedy most employers are, and as a result they lose their good people. Every employer has the responsibility to pay a living wage, but if the employer were to pay a BETTER THAN LIVING WAGE he would end up with the best and most loyal employees. Henry Ford proved the soundness of this principle. 

So paying employees poorly is definitely an example of oppressing the poor, the fatherless and the widows, and also short-changing oneself. Scripture also says that what men sow they will also reap.  So for purely selfish reasons, an employer should apply the Golden Rule when it comes to wages and benefits. Indeed, labour unions would become redundant if employers paid their employees what they would pay themselves in similar jobs.

Profit-sharing is not only good business, but makes every employee a co-owner.  However, the employer must be totally transparent in this, and also award those who make the most contributions to the profitability of the business, and fire those who do not.  "The labourer is worthy of his hire" is not only a biblical principle, but also an economic principle.

The compensation of those who labour in the Word and in doctrine is also addressed in Scripture.  Evangelists, pastors, teachers and elders are not "employees" of the church but servants of God. Therefore they should really be compensated as "contractors".  The ones who do not labour should not be rewarded, whereas the ones who earnestly labour are worthy of "double honour" and should be well rewarded.  The hiring and firing of pastors as practised in the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist churches is really not scriptural.  Neither is the requirement that they have a Master of Divinity before they can minister the Word.

 This is an excellent post and it reminds me of  many of the British companies who were most successful long term were both Chrstian in their manner of conducting their business and how they treated their employees . Cadbury and Rowntree exist to this day ,and the Lanark Mills which had wonderful overall conditions  for all the families of employees is still in

beautiful condition ,but as a museum . A whole small town .  Yes it can be done ,but ...........? 

[Sister]

Leviticus 19:13   Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Here is something the world is guilty of.  Pay your worker that same day.

My husband is a contractor and has to wait 60 days for his pay, and in many cases it's 30 days late, and they still don't pay full amount owing.  He also worked on a mine-site last year and they went bust, so we didn't even get a cent.  We also had to hire expensive gear, get all these special permits which cost $$$$ sit for 3 hour long entry tests, hire a worker to help, and drive back and forth 2000 km.

So a there's a whole couple of month's worth of working for nothing, and losing the money and time it cost to get the contract.... all for their profit.  We lose, they win.

 

[Ezra]

3 minutes ago, Sister said:

So a there's a whole couple of month's worth of working for nothing, and losing the money and time it cost to get the contract.... all for their profit.  We lose, they win.

And there is really no need for workers losing while employers win. It can be a win-win for everyone provided employers stop being greedy and practice the Golden Rule.

[simplejeff]

This is the simple truth..

15 minutes ago, Sister said:

Leviticus 19:13   Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

Here is something the world is guilty of.  Pay your worker that same day.

My husband is a contractor and has to wait 60 days for his pay, and in many cases it's 30 days late, and they still don't pay full amount owing.  He also worked on a mine-site last year and they went bust, so we didn't even get a cent.  We also had to hire expensive gear, get all these special permits which cost $$$$ sit for 3 hour long entry tests, hire a worker to help, and drive back and forth 2000 km.

So a there's a whole couple of month's worth of working for nothing, and losing the money and time it cost to get the contract.... all for their profit.  We lose, they win.

 

Yet, did you or your husband fulfill your contract, in view of this Scripture you quoted, with the Author of Scripture ? 

Completely in harmony with all Scripture ? 

[Sister]

simplejeff

Do you mean did we pay our worker that night?  No we paid him weekly.  So I guess we broke the rule too.

About 30 years ago, every one here always got paid at the end of the week.   That's not too bad.  You would line up for your pay packet every friday and counted your money to check it was all there.

Then 25 years ago, companies started introducing payday's every fortnight.  It felt a bit tougher, but the pay packet was seemed bigger.

20 years or so ago,  when internet banking became more popular, the larger companies would hold back peoples wages for a whole month.  Nothing we could do about it, get another job if we want to complain.

Now if you want to work for yourself and become a contractor to a corporation, you have to invoice for the whole month, then at the end of the month hand in your invoice, and wait another month before it's paid.  Then they deduct whatever they like and amend your invoice at their will, then short pay you on maybe a week or two worth of invoices, and when you try to sort it out with the office girl she simply cannot pay you the difference until the next pay run on the next month and so it goes.  We are always short.

This is happening to everyone we know here.  It is illegal to hold back payment for more than two weeks in the industry my husband is.  If you want to complain or take action against your employer, they will tell you to take a hike and hire someone else. 

My husband is in transport.  He saw a work collegue who he barely knew which had his truck parked up inside one of the premises they contract to.  He asked what was wrong.  This guy was extremely upset because his truck broke down and he couldn't fix it because he hadn't been paid for 4 months.  My husband straight away ordered the part for the truck and paid for it.  He told the guy he could pay back when he was on his feet.  The guy didn't want to take the help, but my husband insisted.  My husband said the guy got teary and was so grateful.  My husband is that sort of a guy who will help any one in need, even if it's all he has left.  A month later, that guy's truck is back there.  My husband pulls over and asks what happened.  The guy was stressed out because the Company's yard where he was parked threatened to tow his truck away if he didn't move it off the premises. He was stressing because his registration had run out and he was afraid of being picked up by the police and having the truck confiscated.  They still had not paid the poor guy.  That guys wife had left him because she had enough. My husband had no money to help him out this time because our pay was late also.  It is heart wrenching.  This system is so wrong.  

The government turns a blind eye.  The banks keep ringing for their mortgage payments, the cupboards are empty, the kids need this and that, the credit card bill gets maxed out, and everyone is screaming for their money.  It's a circus, and it is only going to get worse.  Only Christ will bring in a fair system.

[simplejeff]

You've seen the world system as it is, for what it is. 

If Christ did what was fair, we'd all be condemned.

As it is , Yahweh has Saved for Himself a Remnant, purchased by the Blood of the Lamb of Yahweh.

We long for Him.  We seek HIM with

all our heart and soul and mind and strength, with all that is within us.

1 hour ago, Sister said:

It is heart wrenching.  This system is so wrong.  

The government turns a blind eye.  The banks keep ringing for their mortgage payments, the cupboards are empty, the kids need this and that, the credit card bill gets maxed out, and everyone is screaming for their money.  It's a circus, and it is only going to get worse.  Only Christ will bring in a fair system.

 

[Guest]

On February 4, 2016 at 10:27 PM, The_Patriot2016 said:

as someone who has worked at multiple wal-marts, I dont see the hatred against them. Sure, theyre never the highest paying jobs in town, but nor are they the worst, and their benefits package is outstanding. And, for those that claim you cant make money there, well, chances are its because they don't have any drive. I make good money right now at the job I do-and if I wanted to, I could be making the same, if not more, money at wal-mart. Sure, if all you ever do is cashier, and quit in a year and a half, your not going to make much, but if your driven, you hang around, and advance when you get the chance, there are good, solid, money making careers at wal-mart. I knew a few people that worked there who were on food stamps-but they were also the ones who would only put forth the minimal effort, had no drive, and then were mad when they got passed over for promotion. 

 

There were high standards in my family that made me think this wasn’t good enough, back in the day.  Now, I think, why does it really matter?  We should be focusing on things greater than this world (God and our relationships with Him).  This actually became a trap of pride for me—focusing on selfish ambition.

 

On February 4, 2016 at 10:27 PM, The_Patriot2016 said:

Fact of life is, food stamps is a way over abused system in our country. Don't get me wrong, im not against them-if someone needs them they need them, but it is a heavily abused system, and in most cases (not all dont misquote me) people on food stamps wouldn't have to be on them if they would just learn to manage their money better. And thats not just limited to wal-mart employees, our nation as a whole has bought into the "have to have it now, and pay for it later" mentality, and it sinks them in a hole, so deep in debt that its unbelieveable. Everyone argues "liveable wage" well I have personally met people, living on "low wage jobs" such as wal-mart and fast food (wal-mart actually pays better then most fast food, interesting fact), who not only owned a home-but a brand new car, with zero debt. How? simple. money management. Instead of taking out a loan on a house they couldnt afford, they saved up over several years, bought cheaper cars, invested, etc and when they had enough paid for everything up front.

 

They can be over abused.  They can also be stereotyped to the point that the majority become callous to the plight of the poor.  I’ve read that some are so restricted that they cannot even buy chips with their food stamps as an example to society in order to combat obesity.  I don’t think this is fair to those who are impoverished.  For example, if someone like me fell into poverty with the dietary issues that I have (including celiac disease), certain chips are a great way to get carbohydrates in one’s diet inexpensively. Money management is wise.  It can also make you feel slighted if others are getting some sort of help if you are not getting when you approach things responsibly.  I’ve been in both places—perhaps (from God, I believe--due to my prayer requests) to give me more real empathy and compassion for those in impoverished conditions.

 

 

 

 

On February 4, 2016 at 10:27 PM, The_Patriot2016 said:

 knew a pastor, on a pastors salary (I dont know about you, but around here pastors are lucky to make $30,000 a year, and thats a WELL PAID pastor) who bought a brand new corvette all in cash. So, it is very doable.

 

I also don’t like how those working in the ministry are sometimes seen as scammers if they do not live in poverty.  Often, they have to provide for families, so what is wrong with them being paid a decent wage?

 

 

On February 4, 2016 at 10:27 PM, The_Patriot2016 said:

Exploitation, isnt how much a company pays its workers. If you don't think the job your at is paying you enough work harder and improve your skills so you can get a better job, and stop blaming the employer. The true exploitation, comes in the form of debt. It is the creditors who are exploiting the american people-tricking them into taking expensive loans that they cant afford at extremely high interest rates, that they have no hope of ever paying off. Those are the people that are exploiting people-not your local neighborhood wal-mart or mcdonalds.

 

If you are bad off in life, a person can be clearly exploited, due to others recognizing their bleeding wounds and desperation for help.  Compassion would help those in higher stations in life (undeserved without God’s grace) realize that they (the poor and needy) are not necessarily there due to being lower class but genuinely need some help, due to their disadvantaged state.

 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Thallasa said:

It is difficult for someone outside of a country to know the détails of employment ,so will say no more except to say that yes there are people who see the bottle half empty ,and others see it half full . Those in the latter situation are the winners for they make the most of any given situation, not looking at others and comparing,but challenging themselves to  face difficulties  .

 

Sometimes, people *have* the bottle half empty, due to their own misfortune.

 

17 hours ago, Thallasa said:

I think from what I have heard ,it is when someone has  serious illness that the system falls down ,as this makes it impossible with an average wage, to  ever catch up, and this why I would want a basic but good  free health system  ,which can be topped up by private insurance for more cosmetic things ,and private rooms etc .This is the U.K. system, and it is basic neccessity in a civilised country . 

 

There are a lot of cracks one can fall into in the system, including those in prisons.  Those who haven’t fallen into these cracks are blessed, and it’s good to protect oneself from being degraded by life—because I believe it could happen to any of us—no matter what our own self-confidence and comfort levels tell us about where we are at.  I do not like the current revision in our health system and think it caters to corporations and disadvantages the poor severely.

 

17 hours ago, Thallasa said:

Also  since  one cannot become Mega rich  without lying , manipulating , exploiting ,and also abusing power in government ,  no christian should be making heroes of such people  .

 

Yes, I do not like how Christian morality has been tied with capitalism in the Republican party.

 

17 hours ago, Thallasa said:

I find it ironic, that people who say they are christians often vote for the richest, most carnal of people . Strange .

 

 

Agreed.

 

[The_Patriot21]

4 hours ago, ethrayn said:

 

There were high standards in my family that made me think this wasn’t good enough, back in the day.  Now, I think, why does it really matter?  We should be focusing on things greater than this world (God and our relationships with Him).  This actually became a trap of pride for me—focusing on selfish ambition.

 

 

They can be over abused.  They can also be stereotyped to the point that the majority become callous to the plight of the poor.  I’ve read that some are so restricted that they cannot even buy chips with their food stamps as an example to society in order to combat obesity.  I don’t think this is fair to those who are impoverished.  For example, if someone like me fell into poverty with the dietary issues that I have (including celiac disease), certain chips are a great way to get carbohydrates in one’s diet inexpensively. Money management is wise.  It can also make you feel slighted if others are getting some sort of help if you are not getting when you approach things responsibly.  I’ve been in both places—perhaps (from God, I believe--due to my prayer requests) to give me more real empathy and compassion for those in impoverished conditions.

 

 

 

 

 

I also don’t like how those working in the ministry are sometimes seen as scammers if they do not live in poverty.  Often, they have to provide for families, so what is wrong with them being paid a decent wage?

 

 

 

If you are bad off in life, a person can be clearly exploited, due to others recognizing their bleeding wounds and desperation for help.  Compassion would help those in higher stations in life (undeserved without God’s grace) realize that they (the poor and needy) are not necessarily there due to being lower class but genuinely need some help, due to their disadvantaged state.

 

I agree, those who are bad off can easily be exploited. My point is though that many in America, arnt bad off because they can't get a "good enough" job. There are millions of people around the globe that would literally kill for that cashiers job at wal-mart or to fliping burgers at Burger King. Some are, but many are in bad shape because they bought into the American greed, the buy now pay later. They buy big houses and nice cars they can't afford on top of their student loans then end up defaulting on their loans because they didnt get that 6 figure job they dreamed of when they went to colleg, and they dug themselves in to deep and can't afford to pay off their bills, which leaves them with no credit score, no home, no nice cars and working wal-mart, and all the while sore because it "wasn't their fault" they squandered everything.

 

Fact is most American jobs pay better and offer better benefits then a huge portion of the world. Many of them also give to the poor more then many others in other countries. Do they exploit people? Sure. But not to the extent that most people realize. You can live off a wal-mart wage, you can even make a career at it and make good money. People are just to greedy, they've bought into the American lie of instant gratification, and sold themselves to creditors. 

 

I'm not saying there arnt people in the US that are genuinely down on their luck. There is, definitely. But a lot of people are there of their own free will, and its not the big bad companies such as wal-mart and McDonald's that put them there. It's big bad companies like McDonald's and wal-mart that have helped make America great over the years, free enterprise boosts the economy... And notice over the last few years with Obama, hea been attacking free enterprise, and look what's been happening to the economy. Blaming the company is just something they want you to do, because it passes the buck from who's really at fault.