Greed, oppressing the poor and the wage earner

[firestormx]

Malachi 3:5-6

And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts. For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

 

The verse above is one of many verses that speaks about God judging those that oppress or in another translation exploit the poor and the fatherless and the wage earner. What qualifies as oppressing or exploiting wage earners or the hireling? Take wal-mart for example.  I personally know people who make so little working full time at wal-mart that they must be on food stamps to make ends meet. All the while wal-mart makes billions and billions of dollars. Would wal-mart meet the biblical qualifications for oppressing the wage earner or hireling?   Where is the line? What I mean is, Peter I believe it was told Ananias " while the money was yours could you not do with it what you will" ? Where is the line between someone ( business owner for example ) doing with what is there's as they see fit and them oppressing/exploiting the wage earner or hireling they employ? With greed being everywhere in the USA today what is the proper biblical model that business should follow that doesn't exploit/oppress the hireling or the poor which God speaks against in so many places.  Personally I have always viewed this through the lens of something FDR ( i could be wrong ) said., which was, Any business that doesn't pay it's employees a livable wage has no right to exist in this country. But is this biblical? 

 

Just curious what others think in these times we find ourselves in what there understanding of not oppressing the poor and the hireling and the fatherless and widow means today from a biblical point of view. 

Thank you

Firestormx

Joseph

[simplejeff]

43 minutes ago, firestormx said:

 Personally I have always viewed this through the lens of something FDR ( i could be wrong ) said., which was, Any business that doesn't pay it's employees a livable wage has no right to exist in this country. But is this biblical? 

look up reference in biblegateway if not recognized

"WITH FOOD AND CLOTHES , BE CONTENT"   ((who is content TODAY with NOTHING but TODAY'S FOOD and clothes to wear?))

"There is great gain in GODLINESS with contentment"  ((who is GODLY TODAY ??))
 

 

"the believer's considered NOTHING THEIR OWN"  they sold whatever they had to to help others/meet the needs of others even BEFORE THEIR OWN...  ((they TRUSTED GOD in JESUS, to PROVIDE. and HE DID/ does today for those who TRUST HIM SO))

"EVEN IF WE DIE,  we will NOT DENY GOD"  i.e. we will serve HIM and ONLY HIM no matter what.

maybe more later, related to the quote more..... ((no corporation is Godly that we've ever seen))

.

 

[SINNERSAVED]

Hello, Firestormx

 I want to tell you brother that we all see it and feel what you are saying, and it is of the times we are now living , is to the hand to mouth , for some, and lots of over indulgence  for some, but the system is working its way to gather all, and to place all into a need that will not and cannot be refused, and will be hard to resist ,we have crossed into a new motion of change in people in governing and in our morals and standards, for it is going , as planned by and we are seeing the revelations of man unfold, we have come to the doors of where we see as this generation, looks back to see its history and tough times, to today where all that is good is evil and evil is now the good,

so I would not worry about how the economy is going for we need to prepare, for what is not seen and soon to hit, we are going to

have tribulation , and tough times coming, this is just the start , and many refuse to believe this, but what is being set is dependency on the system for food medical and living, if they can maximize the push to get everyone on it, and they will, then all will be in need and people will do what ever it took to get it,to survive and feed their families, is going to be extremely hard, and this is where we get,

the SYSTEM, to control the people for who ever controls the food and the oil ,controls the people 

 we forget that there was slaves and masters and how the times of past was, when Christians were fed to the lions and killed for not bowing,

so this is the new way of getting people to bow, slow fade, little by little inch by inch, law by law, restriction by restriction , a piece of freedom at a time, invent another war , and place more orders to control , more rules to follow and more imposements to be had

i8n revelation, it talks about the mark of the beast , and people are saying when they see it they will know, ? Huh... its already here  !

its just not in full swing yet, but they are lifting the nets ,and many will be caught and taken out ,with out knowing even what happened

so let us focus on  Jesus and salvation, and God is in control we are told of these things and He is faithful to us until the end.

its not going to get any better, and there is only the words of the ancient to show us today what they saw yesterday ,

and now it has come, we are in the last days and devastation is hiding around the corner, let us be one with God , and be saved for we will need Gods strength to over come. and endure until the end.set your mind up above, for the world is about to be judged, and America is next, we have rejected God, and now comes what comes.

blessings brother

[Guest Thallasa]

I don't know how people can call themselves Christian and tolerate such terrible conditions of work in such a rich country .

There is something wrong here .

[simplejeff]

Since true Christians are greatly outnumbered and also laws in place prevent Christians from publicly preaching or practicing the GOSPEL OF JESUS ((similarly to communist countries))

and true Christians get ARRESTED ((daily)) ((and willingly and joyously)) ((like in the BIBLE, for REAL))

and corporations have NEVER has a heart or soul or conscience ((in the middle ages onward, even the 'lord's farms' were known to be oppressive and greedy long before the industrial age, and ever after with all the industrial factories and businesses, so far, with few if any exceptions))....

and many many many persecuted true Christians in other countries 

agree with you .......  ((they've been praying for the usa for several decades))

i.e. "few find the narrow road to life", today  as always. ((few compared the "MANY" on the wide road to destruction))

19 minutes ago, Thallasa said:

I don't know how people can call themselves Christian and tolerate such terrible conditions of work in such a rich country .

There is something wrong here .

 

[firestormx]

1 hour ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Hello, Firestormx

 I want to tell you brother that we all see it and feel what you are saying, and it is of the times we are now living , is to the hand to mouth , for some, and lots of over indulgence  for some, but the system is working its way to gather all, and to place all into a need that will not and cannot be refused, and will be hard to resist ,we have crossed into a new motion of change in people in governing and in our morals and standards, for it is going , as planned by and we are seeing the revelations of man unfold, we have come to the doors of where we see as this generation, looks back to see its history and tough times, to today where all that is good is evil and evil is now the good,

so I would not worry about how the economy is going for we need to prepare, for what is not seen and soon to hit, we are going to

have tribulation , and tough times coming, this is just the start , and many refuse to believe this, but what is being set is dependency on the system for food medical and living, if they can maximize the push to get everyone on it, and they will, then all will be in need and people will do what ever it took to get it,to survive and feed their families, is going to be extremely hard, and this is where we get,

the SYSTEM, to control the people for who ever controls the food and the oil ,controls the people 

 we forget that there was slaves and masters and how the times of past was, when Christians were fed to the lions and killed for not bowing,

so this is the new way of getting people to bow, slow fade, little by little inch by inch, law by law, restriction by restriction , a piece of freedom at a time, invent another war , and place more orders to control , more rules to follow and more imposements to be had

i8n revelation, it talks about the mark of the beast , and people are saying when they see it they will know, ? Huh... its already here  !

its just not in full swing yet, but they are lifting the nets ,and many will be caught and taken out ,with out knowing even what happened

so let us focus on  Jesus and salvation, and God is in control we are told of these things and He is faithful to us until the end.

its not going to get any better, and there is only the words of the ancient to show us today what they saw yesterday ,

and now it has come, we are in the last days and devastation is hiding around the corner, let us be one with God , and be saved for we will need Gods strength to over come. and endure until the end.set your mind up above, for the world is about to be judged, and America is next, we have rejected God, and now comes what comes.

blessings brother

Thank you for this post and for the reminder to keep my focus on Jesus. God bless you

[MorningGlory]

29 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Since true Christians are greatly outnumbered and also laws in place prevent Christians from publicly preaching or practicing the GOSPEL OF JESUS ((similarly to communist countries))

and true Christians get ARRESTED ((daily)) ((and willingly and joyously)) ((like in the BIBLE, for REAL))

and corporations have NEVER has a heart or soul or conscience ((in the middle ages onward, even the 'lord's farms' were known to be oppressive and greedy long before the industrial age, and ever after with all the industrial factories and businesses, so far, with few if any exceptions))....

and many many many persecuted true Christians in other countries 

agree with you .......  ((they've been praying for the usa for several decades))

i.e. "few find the narrow road to life", today  as always. ((few compared the "MANY" on the wide road to destruction))

 

Anyone who wants to profess the faith or preach in the U.S. is free to do so.  Christians are just AFRAID to do that; don't want to be labeled haters.  Personally, I don't care; I'll say whatever, whenever and the consequences be what they be.  What Christians are getting arrested daily in this country?

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, firestormx said:

Just curious what others think in these times we find ourselves in what there understanding of not oppressing the poor and the hireling and the fatherless and widow means today from a biblical point of view. 

You've raised a very good point. Should employers be concerned with the wellbeing of their employees? Is that biblical?  Since not all employers are Christians, can this be promoted on a purely selfish basis?

It is always amazing to see how short-sighted and greedy most employers are, and as a result they lose their good people. Every employer has the responsibility to pay a living wage, but if the employer were to pay a BETTER THAN LIVING WAGE he would end up with the best and most loyal employees. Henry Ford proved the soundness of this principle. 

So paying employees poorly is definitely an example of oppressing the poor, the fatherless and the widows, and also short-changing oneself. Scripture also says that what men sow they will also reap.  So for purely selfish reasons, an employer should apply the Golden Rule when it comes to wages and benefits. Indeed, labour unions would become redundant if employers paid their employees what they would pay themselves in similar jobs.

Profit-sharing is not only good business, but makes every employee a co-owner.  However, the employer must be totally transparent in this, and also award those who make the most contributions to the profitability of the business, and fire those who do not.  "The labourer is worthy of his hire" is not only a biblical principle, but also an economic principle.

The compensation of those who labour in the Word and in doctrine is also addressed in Scripture.  Evangelists, pastors, teachers and elders are not "employees" of the church but servants of God. Therefore they should really be compensated as "contractors".  The ones who do not labour should not be rewarded, whereas the ones who earnestly labour are worthy of "double honour" and should be well rewarded.  The hiring and firing of pastors as practised in the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist churches is really not scriptural.  Neither is the requirement that they have a Master of Divinity before they can minister the Word.

[firestormx]

21 minutes ago, Ezra said:

You've raised a very good point. Should employers be concerned with the wellbeing of their employees? Is that biblical?  Since not all employers are Christians, can this be promoted on a purely selfish basis?

It is always amazing to see how short-sighted and greedy most employers are, and as a result they lose their good people. Every employer has the responsibility to pay a living wage, but if the employer were to pay a BETTER THAN LIVING WAGE he would end up with the best and most loyal employees. Henry Ford proved the soundness of this principle. 

So paying employees poorly is definitely an example of oppressing the poor, the fatherless and the widows, and also short-changing oneself. Scripture also says that what men sow they will also reap.  So for purely selfish reasons, an employer should apply the Golden Rule when it comes to wages and benefits. Indeed, labour unions would become redundant if employers paid their employees what they would pay themselves in similar jobs.

Profit-sharing is not only good business, but makes every employee a co-owner.  However, the employer must be totally transparent in this, and also award those who make the most contributions to the profitability of the business, and fire those who do not.  "The labourer is worthy of his hire" is not only a biblical principle, but also an economic principle.

The compensation of those who labour in the Word and in doctrine is also addressed in Scripture.  Evangelists, pastors, teachers and elders are not "employees" of the church but servants of God. Therefore they should really be compensated as "contractors".  The ones who do not labour should not be rewarded, whereas the ones who earnestly labour are worthy of "double honour" and should be well rewarded.  The hiring and firing of pastors as practised in the majority of evangelical and fundamentalist churches is really not scriptural.  Neither is the requirement that they have a Master of Divinity before they can minister the Word.

thanks for your insights. I really enjoyed reading your post. Your statement "  labour unions would become redundant if employers paid their employees what they would pay themselves in similar jobs." I agree with very much. The love of money is sin. Today it is celebrated. We should be light, we should be different. This is not a subject I hear talked about a lot even though greed.....the love of money is everywhere. Thank you for your thoughts.

[The_Patriot21]

as someone who has worked at multiple wal-marts, I dont see the hatred against them. Sure, theyre never the highest paying jobs in town, but nor are they the worst, and their benefits package is outstanding. And, for those that claim you cant make money there, well, chances are its because they don't have any drive. I make good money right now at the job I do-and if I wanted to, I could be making the same, if not more, money at wal-mart. Sure, if all you ever do is cashier, and quit in a year and a half, your not going to make much, but if your driven, you hang around, and advance when you get the chance, there are good, solid, money making careers at wal-mart. I knew a few people that worked there who were on food stamps-but they were also the ones who would only put forth the minimal effort, had no drive, and then were mad when they got passed over for promotion. 

 

Fact of life is, food stamps is a way over abused system in our country. Don't get me wrong, im not against them-if someone needs them they need them, but it is a heavily abused system, and in most cases (not all dont misquote me) people on food stamps wouldn't have to be on them if they would just learn to manage their money better. And thats not just limited to wal-mart employees, our nation as a whole has bought into the "have to have it now, and pay for it later" mentality, and it sinks them in a hole, so deep in debt that its unbelieveable. Everyone argues "liveable wage" well I have personally met people, living on "low wage jobs" such as wal-mart and fast food (wal-mart actually pays better then most fast food, interesting fact), who not only owned a home-but a brand new car, with zero debt. How? simple. money management. Instead of taking out a loan on a house they couldnt afford, they saved up over several years, bought cheaper cars, invested, etc and when they had enough paid for everything up front. I knew a pastor, on a pastors salary (I dont know about you, but around here pastors are lucky to make $30,000 a year, and thats a WELL PAID pastor) who bought a brand new corvette all in cash. So, it is very doable.

 

Exploitation, isnt how much a company pays its workers. If you don't think the job your at is paying you enough work harder and improve your skills so you can get a better job, and stop blaming the employer. The true exploitation, comes in the form of debt. It is the creditors who are exploiting the american people-tricking them into taking expensive loans that they cant afford at extremely high interest rates, that they have no hope of ever paying off. Those are the people that are exploiting people-not your local neighborhood wal-mart or mcdonalds.