Hawkeye Posted February 15, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 566 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 349 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/08/1985 Share Posted February 15, 2016 (edited) James tells us in Chapter 1, Verse 27 " Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows". Obviously one thing Christians are supposed to do is care for the widows and orphans in their time of need. Further on when James talks about Faith without works (James 2)- he asks the question (paraphrasing) how can you witness if somebody is hungry or cold? First clothe and feed them... So this brings me to my observation/question/would like to get thoughts on. Why can't local churches get along and focus on the greater good (i.e clothing, feeding and ministering to the needy?) It is a direct command from Jesus... The Bible speaks often about helping the poor: (Matthew 5:42) to give to the one who asks of you. Furthermore, he commands us to " “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:12-14) And later on in Luke 12... (Verse 33-34) Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. -------- Now to the topic at hand. Our church (the local gathering of believers) has a missional/ministry/community outreach mindset. Now we are a new plant (about 2 months old), so resources are obviously limited. We would (as a group) like to collaborate with other community churches to meet basic needs of the community (food , clothing, work needs- whatever need may be there). Currently the only thing certain is that we will be going door to door, offering light bulbs and changing them out. Meeting resistance seems to be the standard operating procedure for churches working together. Church A doesn't like that Church B allows women to wear pants, and Church C doesn't like that Church D sprinkles instead of dunking, so they refuse to work together for the community. This is the unfortunate state of sadness (albeit, I am sure there are some groups out there that work together). Some questions... # 1- Why is it not common practice? There is so much division in the church today, that basic needs are being left unmet in the community. # 2- Does your church/would your church work with a church of a denomination that believes differently than you on non-core issues (not compromising Salvation through Jesus) But things like pants or skirts, or sprinkling or dunking? Our church currently is formulating a plan to work with one other church... but are meeting resistance from so many because of the differences in non core issues (instruments or not, pants or skirts, sprinkling or dunking, wine or juice at communion..) The list goes on and on. It's weary, when you know the command from Jesus is to help the poor and needy, - and that knowing together if all the local groups combined resources, they would be an unstoppable force....... So the burning question is: What's stopping them? Edited February 17, 2016 by Hawkeye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 38 minutes ago, Hawkeye said: James tells us in Chapter 1, Verse 27 " Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows". Obviously one thing Christians are supposed to do is care for the widows and orphans in their time of need. Further on when James talks about Faith without works (James 2)- he asks the question (paraphrasing) how can you witness if somebody is hungry or cold? First clothe and feed them... So this brings me to my observation/question/would like to get thoughts on. Why can't local churches get along and focus on the greater good (i.e clothing, feeding and ministering to the needy?) It is a direct command from Jesus... The Bible speaks often about helping the poor: (Matthew 5:42) to give to the one who asks of you. Furthermore, he commands us to " “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:12-14) And later on in Luke 12... (Verse 33-34) Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. -------- Now to the topic at hand. Our church (the local gathering of believers) has a missional/ministry/community outreach mindset. Now we are a new plant (about 2 months old), so resources are obviously limited. We would (as a group) like to collaborate with other community churches to meet basic needs of the community (food , clothing, work needs- whatever need may be there). Currently the only thing certain is that we will be going door to door, offering light bulbs and changing them out. Meeting resistance seems to be the standard operating procedure for churches working together. Church A doesn't like that Church B allows women to wear pants, and Church C doesn't like that Church D sprinkles instead of dunking, so they refuse to work together for the community. This is the unfortunate state of sadness (albeit, I am sure there are some groups out there that work together). Some questions... # 1- Why is it not common practice? There is so much division in the church today, that basic needs are being left unmet in the community. # 2- Does your church/would your church work with a church of a denomination that believes differently than you on non-core issues (not compromising Salvation through Jesus) But things like pants or skirts, or sprinkling or dunking? Our church currently is formulating a plan to work with one other church... but are meeting resistance from so many because of the differences in non core issues (instruments or not, pants or skirts, sprinkling or dunking, wine or juice at communion..) The list goes on and on. It's weary, when you know the command from Jesus is to help the poor and needy, - and that knowing together if all the local groups combined resources, they would be an unstoppable force....... So the burning question is: What's stopping them? This is rather simple to answer for me. What you are not understanding is that what you call "non core issues" are core issues to another church. That would be the case whether it be clothing, baptism by emersion or wine or juice at communion. What is not important to you is absolutely critical to someone else. If you can accept that, you will understand the resistance. As to working with another church if there are differences over things like this, I am not sure to tell you the truth. I would have to think about that. On the one hand, your objectives might be something I would agree with, but on the other hand, I might not agree with some of the things the people in the other church allow or teach in their church, and wouldn't want to come across like I am in agreement with them. That is the main reason I don't attend churches where the people do things I find sinful that the consider non core issues. I don't want it to appear I am in unity with something they are doing I consider an abomination, wrong, or just sinful. Have you ever put this question directly to the people in the churches in question? I would be curious what they would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 I think I have a solution for you Hawkeye if your true intent is to find a way to work with other churches. If your intent here is just to stir strife and hope others will join with you in attacking churches that won't work with yours, I find that a waste of time, but if you are about working together for the common good, here is how you can do it. You know for instance that these other churches won't work with yours because of various issues. If you love Jesus so much, and these people that are in need, all you have to do is go to the church leaders and find out what changes your church has to make in order to find acceptance with them where you can work together. Show your love by giving things up. If you wear pants and the church down the road thinks that is an abomination, to show your love for Jesus and to reach these people in need of light bulbs, don't wear pants. If another church believes you must baptize by emersion and your church sprinkles, start baptizing by emersion. If another church thinks you need real wine for communion and yours uses grape juice, use real wine. (Of course, if you are serving to minors, I would suggest using wine where the alcohol was removed to keep out of legal trouble.) You know they won't change because they find these things critical, but you have said they are not essential to you. As such, it comes down to how much love you have for the people in your community. Do you love them enough to change yourself, or is this simply about getting all the people at WB to start bashing others as legalistic? What are the motives in your heart? I would bet that if your church made simple changes, you could join forces as you say you want to do and do all kinds of great things in your community. You can't make others change, but you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 15, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,239 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,492 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Butero said: I think I have a solution for you Hawkeye if your true intent is to find a way to work with other churches. If your intent here is just to stir strife and hope others will join with you in attacking churches that won't work with yours, I find that a waste of time, but if you are about working together for the common good, here is how you can do it. You know for instance that these other churches won't work with yours because of various issues. If you love Jesus so much, and these people that are in need, all you have to do is go to the church leaders and find out what changes your church has to make in order to find acceptance with them where you can work together. Show your love by giving things up. If you wear pants and the church down the road thinks that is an abomination, to show your love for Jesus and to reach these people in need of light bulbs, don't wear pants. If another church believes you must baptize by emersion and your church sprinkles, start baptizing by emersion. If another church thinks you need real wine for communion and yours uses grape juice, use real wine. (Of course, if you are serving to minors, I would suggest using wine where the alcohol was removed to keep out of legal trouble.) You know they won't change because they find these things critical, but you have said they are not essential to you. As such, it comes down to how much love you have for the people in your community. Do you love them enough to change yourself, or is this simply about getting all the people at WB to start bashing others as legalistic? What are the motives in your heart? I would bet that if your church made simple changes, you could join forces as you say you want to do and do all kinds of great things in your community. You can't make others change, but you can. This seems like a door that should swing both ways over things with a doubtful disputation.... for although God says the outward appearance He give no sight to yet we continue with sight upon *?* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 21 minutes ago, enoob57 said: This seems like a door that should swing both ways over things with a doubtful disputation.... for although God says the outward appearance He give no sight to yet we continue with sight upon *?* You are missing the point. The others won't work with her church, and they have no ability to make others change, so it is about coming to unity the only way you can for the sake of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 15, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,239 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,492 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, Butero said: You are missing the point. The others won't work with her church, and they have no ability to make others change, so it is about coming to unity the only way you can for the sake of others. Enabling the error is a reasoning factor in this... on both sides. If from my desire to do good causes me to enable a people to remain in shallow outward appearance judgment then my good turns into support for their bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 5 hours ago, Hawkeye said: James tells us in Chapter 1, Verse 27 " Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows". Obviously one thing Christians are supposed to do is care for the widows and orphans in their time of need. Further on when James talks about Faith without works (James 2)- he asks the question (paraphrasing) how can you witness if somebody is hungry or cold? First clothe and feed them... So this brings me to my observation/question/would like to get thoughts on. Why can't local churches get along and focus on the greater good (i.e clothing, feeding and ministering to the needy?) It is a direct command from Jesus... The Bible speaks often about helping the poor: (Matthew 5:42) to give to the one who asks of you. Furthermore, he commands us to " “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:12-14) And later on in Luke 12... (Verse 33-34) Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. -------- Now to the topic at hand. Our church (the local gathering of believers) has a missional/ministry/community outreach mindset. Now we are a new plant (about 2 months old), so resources are obviously limited. We would (as a group) like to collaborate with other community churches to meet basic needs of the community (food , clothing, work needs- whatever need may be there). Currently the only thing certain is that we will be going door to door, offering light bulbs and changing them out. Meeting resistance seems to be the standard operating procedure for churches working together. Church A doesn't like that Church B allows women to wear pants, and Church C doesn't like that Church D sprinkles instead of dunking, so they refuse to work together for the community. This is the unfortunate state of sadness (albeit, I am sure there are some groups out there that work together). Some questions... # 1- Why is it not common practice? There is so much division in the church today, that basic needs are being left unmet in the community. # 2- Does your church/would your church work with a church of a denomination that believes differently than you on non-core issues (not compromising Salvation through Jesus) But things like pants or skirts, or sprinkling or dunking? Our church currently is formulating a plan to work with one other church... but are meeting resistance from so many because of the differences in non core issues (instruments or not, pants or skirts, sprinkling or dunking, wine or juice at communion..) The list goes on and on. It's weary, when you know the command from Jesus is to help the poor and needy, - and that knowing together if all the local groups combined resources, they would be an unstoppable force....... So the burning question is: What's stopping them? When I think of such things, Hawkeye, my mind goes to the latter chapters of Romans where Paul talks about differences in dogma and the like. Therefore I would think that the burden of conciliation is on the group that initiates the project/ministry. They should conform to the "weaker" brethren and "bear their infirmities"... we do these thing in proportion to the others faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted February 15, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted February 15, 2016 Well, to a point I see where your coming from, and some differences like pants vs skirts are childish-as long as they are modest its fine. But other issues, like sprinkling vs dunking, well now we have an actual core doctrine we have to deal with, unlike clothing, baptism is a biblical doctrine, and a church does need to stand firm on it. Sprinkling is a false doctrine, and I would not be part of an active ministry that teaches a blatantly false doctrine, because then the people we are witnessing to get not only a conflicting message, but one will be wrong and unbiblical, and they won't be able to tell the difference, which in the end isn't really ministering. I'm not one for working against them-but on the same note I would not publicly associate myself as part of a ministry that teaches an obviously false doctrine. If its small stuff like pants vs skirts or how often you take communion, then sure I'm all about getting along, but not if they teach teachings that are blatantly contrary to core doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 12 minutes ago, enoob57 said: Enabling the error is a reasoning factor in this... on both sides. If from my desire to do good causes me to enable a people to remain in shallow outward appearance judgment then my good turns into support for their bad. That doesn't apply here because Hawkeye said these are not essential issues to her. It should be easier for her to move than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 15, 2016 Share Posted February 15, 2016 20 minutes ago, The_Patriot2016 said: Well, to a point I see where your coming from, and some differences like pants vs skirts are childish-as long as they are modest its fine. But other issues, like sprinkling vs dunking, well now we have an actual core doctrine we have to deal with, unlike clothing, baptism is a biblical doctrine, and a church does need to stand firm on it. Sprinkling is a false doctrine, and I would not be part of an active ministry that teaches a blatantly false doctrine, because then the people we are witnessing to get not only a conflicting message, but one will be wrong and unbiblical, and they won't be able to tell the difference, which in the end isn't really ministering. I'm not one for working against them-but on the same note I would not publicly associate myself as part of a ministry that teaches an obviously false doctrine. If its small stuff like pants vs skirts or how often you take communion, then sure I'm all about getting along, but not if they teach teachings that are blatantly contrary to core doctrine. Here is the problem Patriot. This isn't about getting along. They are getting along just fine in separate houses of worship minding their own business. What you have is one church approaching another about working together on a project to bring light to those in darkness (literally). The other church finds fault in the church that approached them and refuses to join with them because of those flaws. They don't consider them minor things. Ask any conservative Baptist if baptizing by emersion is important as opposed to sprinkling and see what they say. Just because you consider something small doesn't make it so to others. I wouldn't go out with a church group where the women are wearing pants anymore than I would do so with a church group where the men were wearing a dress, though I know at one time everyone wore long flowing robes. I won't join with them in what I consider something blatantly contrary to my core doctrine. Nobody else will either, so this church has a choice to make. The others won't change, no matter how many people attack them as legalistic or judgmental. I can come back at them and say they are condemning themselves in those things they allow, quoting scripture too, and they will not be moved either. As such, how bad does this church want to reach the maximum number of individuals? If they want to reach the most people, they will have to be the ones to conform. I do think this exchange has been useful in answering the question as to why churches cannot come together and do something like this. One side won't be associated with a church doing things they find sinful. The other side that Enoob and Patriot are on won't be associated with churches they think are in error because they are legalistic. I think that pretty much wraps this up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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