The_Patriot21 Posted March 2, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,718 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,536 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Online Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 2, 2016 4 hours ago, Ezra said: The RCC is the only church that actually forbids marriage to its clergy. The Orthodox allow it and so do all the other denominations. So there is no point in bringing "other religious groups" into the picture. And where there is "self-serving secrecy" you will never get the true state of affairs. In Ireland (a Catholic country) an extensive study was done on sexual abuse by priests (which is more than just pedophilia). Here is a summary (and endemic means built into the fabric) from Wikipedia: The [Ryan] Commission's report said testimony had demonstrated beyond a doubt that the entire system treated children more like prison inmates and slaves than people with legal rights and human potential, that some religious officials encouraged ritual beatings and consistently shielded their orders amid a "culture of self-serving secrecy", and that government inspectors failed to stop the abuses. Among the more extreme allegations of abuse were beatings and rapes, subjection to naked beatings in public, being forced into oral sex, and subjection to beatings after failed rape attempts by brothers. The abuse has been described by some as Ireland'sHolocaust. The abuse was said to be "endemic" in the institutions that dealt with boys. The UK based Guardian newspaper, described the abuse as "the stuff of nightmares", citing the adjectives used in the report as being particularly chilling: "systemic, pervasive, chronic, excessive, arbitrary, endemic". The Report's conclusions section (Chapter 6) supports the overall tenor of the accusations without exception. I said other religions, not other denominations. Look at budhism, their monks are celibant to, and you dont hear anything about them abusing kids. At all. So perhaps, we should all start worshiping budha, because he obviously, has figured something out that none of the rest of the world has. (insert sarcastic smiley here) All you have, for support of your allegations, is 4% of priests being caught doing it, which is no higher then the secular, and you cant use the Ryan Commission-the Ryan commission was limited to the RCC in Ireland. In one country. Not the catholic church as a whole. And it also, does not compare the abuse done by the secular in Ireland. In fact, the child abuse seems to be a pretty big problem in Ireland-and not just by the catholic church, it seems to be more of a cultural thing. ---->http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/a-history-of-child-abuse-in-ireland-287151.html The number staying the same, between the catholic church, and the secular, shows that the problems not celibacy, its just we have some bad apples in every group. In Ireland, the ryan commission is right-there is an high percentage of catholic priets do fall into that sin-but a look at the big picture, shows its more of a cultural problem, then a church problem, and since the church, plays a large part of the irish culture, naturally, its going to fall into the same sins-just like in america, where we have roughly 4% of the population that falls into this sin, so does the catholic church. Im not fan of the catholic church by any means, in fact, their forcing priests to not marry, I think, is in contradiction to Biblical teachings, but Im also against twisting the facts and misrepresenting data, to support ones theory. Which, is what you have to do, to tie pedophilia, with being celebate. If we were talking a bunch of priests hanging out in strip joints, yeah, I could see that-men are naturally drawn to females, they are not naturally, drawn to children, celibate or not, it is a twisted sin, and not tied to being celibate, in any way, shape or form. You want to discuss whether its a right or wrong teaching of the catholic church, then do so using scripture, and actual facts, you shouldn't have to twist the facts to fit your agenda, and the only reason you would have to, would be to blatantly attack the church itself, which is against worthys TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted March 4, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 4, 2016 Well it is a shame the thread went the way it did. I have said it's unfortunate I titled it the way I did and did try to stick with the message in the first paragragh of the OP but it was ignored. The film that won the academy award for best picture is not about exposing sex abuse in the church but exposing the cover up and what I was convicted about and stirred up about, brought on by the memory of a teaching years ago, is the inability, like the church in Corinth, to see fit to judge righteously in situations such as this. The world seems to know what to do when they discover something like this in their organizations like a elementary public school but the church seems not to. I mentioned it bringing shame to the gospel in the first paragragh of the OP and attempted to speak about how Juda became worse than the world in some respects in a later post in this thread and frankly where I was headed was to bring a warning to evangelicalism. Because just as Juda became worse than her sister Samaria so to will the evangelical western church. We think we hold the understanding and so did Juda. The protestants, as we have learned from this thread, have more devorse than the world. Evangelicalism will be worse than Protestantism. Unless of coarse we buy eye salve and proper clothes to cover our nakedness. Honestly it would seem we have lost any credibility we may have had or seemed to have. Why would anyone want to hear anything we have to say about marriage? Why would anyone want to hear what we have to say about sexuality? Or child rearing or psychology or Islam? Well the world doesn't, they actually just want us to shut up, especially when it comes to islam. No matter what truth we may be saying we have no credibility with them. And it's one thing when it's because of righteousness but another when we bring it on ourselves. Judgement is not only coming to the house of Lord it is already here. I was convicted and troubled by the news Monday morning when I caught the headline on the web. That was the context of the thread and I came on to see what others were saying and found no one seems to even have it on the radar and then to have the thread go the way it went was, as I have said, unfortunate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted March 4, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,718 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,536 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Online Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 4, 2016 if you had wanted a subject on the topic, abstinance from marriage being biblical or not, you should have titled it that way and said so from the start. Starting a topic, about the catholics, using as your baseline twisted and untrue statistics about the catholics, is going to turn it into a catholic bash fest. What did you think was going to happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 On 01/03/2016 at 7:28 PM, tigger398 said: Not all priest are bad. I have one that comes into the store and is quite a joy and blessing to talk to. I learn so much from this site about plain old ignorant predjudice ,and a lack of knowledge of history . Probably most of the people here have European roots and are still carrying a one sided version of the truth about each other . Tigger what you have said is sweet ,but it still is predjudiced .Not some ,but most priests are not bad ,and many are saints . I left the Church not because of the priests in general ,but of the Hierarchical setup ,and because there was not enough study of the Bible . I come from a huge famliy and no one was ever abused in any way ,where as in Scotland, a very proetestant country, there was a harshness, and a lack of every day charity . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thallasa Posted March 4, 2016 Share Posted March 4, 2016 As for the subject , YES abstinence from marriage should be revoked for Catholic priests , among other changes needed in this Church . It is long over due ,and causes a lack in the Church which unbalances the wholeness of life . There will probably never be a perfect Church until Christ is ruling it directly ,but this forced celibacy is is a serious problem for most men who are lonely and out of balance in their relationships with others . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted March 4, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 4, 2016 2 hours ago, The_Patriot2016 said: if you had wanted a subject on the topic, abstinance from marriage being biblical or not, you should have titled it that way and said so from the start. Starting a topic, about the catholics, using as your baseline twisted and untrue statistics about the catholics, is going to turn it into a catholic bash fest. What did you think was going to happen? The statistics where asked for by you and were twisted by you and you have been nothing but a bully in this thread. I've explained myself and anyone can read the thread and see the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted March 4, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,718 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,536 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Online Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 4, 2016 no, I didnt twist anything-I gave you the exact statistics-which lined up perfectly, with non catholics. If your "satement" was true, you would have seen a dramatic increase in pedofiles in the catholic church from those not in the secular church-you don't. Theres no twisting there, thats cold hard facts. You can't change them. Fact is, if this was truly about whether or not remaining celibant is a Biblical issue, you would have moved on from the catholic argument a long time ago, and instead, worried about what the Bible actually has to say on the matter. The fact that your so hung up on catholic priests being sexual predators (even though, as the statistics prove, that argument is blatantly false) just shows what your true motives are-its not whether or not its ok to remain celibant-but rather to attack the catholic church. Now, as you have pointed out, this topic is going nowhere, and we can sit here and point fingers all we want, facts don't change and im not wasting any more time with this thread. I think I will instead just report it for what it is, and go about my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zemke Posted March 5, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,028 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 451 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/24/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted March 5, 2016 15 hours ago, The_Patriot2016 said: no, I didnt twist anything-I gave you the exact statistics-which lined up perfectly, with non catholics. If your "satement" was true, you would have seen a dramatic increase in pedofiles in the catholic church from those not in the secular church-you don't. Theres no twisting there, thats cold hard facts. You can't change them. Fact is, if this was truly about whether or not remaining celibant is a Biblical issue, you would have moved on from the catholic argument a long time ago, and instead, worried about what the Bible actually has to say on the matter. The fact that your so hung up on catholic priests being sexual predators (even though, as the statistics prove, that argument is blatantly false) just shows what your true motives are-its not whether or not its ok to remain celibant-but rather to attack the catholic church. Now, as you have pointed out, this topic is going nowhere, and we can sit here and point fingers all we want, facts don't change and im not wasting any more time with this thread. I think I will instead just report it for what it is, and go about my way. There you go. I didn't give statistics to prove that point. You asked me to prove "thousands" of children being involved and I did. Actually over 4,300 preists, just in the United States ordained between 1950 and 2002 have accusations against them that have not been withdrawn and have not been proven to be not true. Of those over 4,300 priests 3.5%, let me state that again 3 and one half% of those priests account for 2,960 accusations. These are the priests with more than ten allegations against them. There is another 96.5% of priests allegations to be added to 2,960. Again only in the United States, not globally, this is just the United States. Again the movie is about the cover up and how high it goes in the organization. I've said my knee jerk making up of a title and quickness at posting was unfortunate, I don't start many threads and it's a lesson learned, but you have constantly not allowed any other topic written in the OP to advance and it isn't your OP. My statistics were given to answer your accusation that I was making it all up about the "thousands", your quotes. My statistics had nothing to do with proving or disproving what you have constantly harped on and have not let this thread expand or get to any other point. And again it is my OP not yours. You have made your point, thank you. You asked me to prove my "thousands" and I did. You have not only twisted those statistics in a previous post of yours but have misrepresented the thread postings in the above post and it is here in writing for anyone to read. It's like having a conversation with a politician. All you are about is to try and prove your assumptions that the only thing I came here to do was bash someone. The only one I can find bashing anything is you. Besides you keep posting over and over again the worlds statistics are the same as Catholics statistics. I think a good number of people have tried to prove that very point over the years and have been considered Catholic bashing. Get over yourself and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted March 5, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted March 5, 2016 On 2/29/2016 at 1:48 PM, Zemke said: the Catholic Church.... what the Pope is saying.... the Vatican to start understanding.... Which But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Romans 11:4 One Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21 Are But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23 You? He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. Song Of Solomon 2:4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted March 5, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted March 5, 2016 On 3/2/2016 at 9:40 PM, The_Patriot2016 said: I'm not fan of the catholic church by any means, in fact, their forcing priests to not marry, I think, is in contradiction to Biblical teachings, but Im also against twisting the facts and misrepresenting data, to support ones theory. Which, is what you have to do, to tie pedophilia, with being celebrate. If we were talking a bunch of priests hanging out in strip joints, yeah, I could see that-men are naturally drawn to females, they are not naturally, drawn to children, celibate or not, it is a twisted sin, and not tied to being celibate, in any way, shape or form. You want to discuss whether its a right or wrong teaching of the catholic church, then do so using scripture, and actual facts, you shouldn't have to twist the facts to fit your agenda, and the only reason you would have to, would be to blatantly attack the church itself, which is against Worthy's TOS. Some Like It Hot These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Proverbs 6:16-19 Some Like It Not To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. Titus 3:2-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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