What Is Christian Unity?

[Hoddie]

39 minutes ago, Ezra said:

This claim about 30-50,000 sects is pure baloney.  If you drop the last three zeros, there are perhaps 30-50 Christian groups which are distinct from each other.

Think so huh?  Then you (or anyone else that agrees with ya) should pick up your local phone book of your area, and go to the to the Church section of the yellow pages.  Add  up all the different non-Catholic churches there are, then multiply that with all the Cities, Towns, and villages throughout the world and see what number you come up with. Thats not even counting the ones that arn't even listed. You know... the sects that were started by someone that received thier "online pastors certificate" and started thier own church, lets say by renting space in a school, Hall, Barn, or someones garage. After you done that,,,, get back to me with number of different non-catholic sects in your area alone.

In my west coast U.S. city of 190,000 pop. there are over 150 different Protestant/Non-Denominational churches listed in the yellow pages.  So much for dropping "three zeros". What do you think the number might be if I looked online?   So you see Erza, your "pure baloney"  theory is just that.... Baloney!

[warrior12]

3 hours ago, Hoddie said:

I'll end this with a couple of quotes that are pertinent.

"The Protestant Reformation resulted in the continuous division of churches over the interpretation of Scripture, each new denomination insisting on its own as authentic. But of course, since they all contradict each other, they can’t all be correct. The divisions continue to this day—thousands of them. If this is reformation, I’d hate to see chaos!"------Fr. Vincent Serpa

So then, what does that say, should protestants adopt the pontificate ruling of "infallibility"   AND do you agree ?,

[HAZARD]

 

No particular church named in these two verses stated by Jesus;

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

[Ezra]

2 hours ago, Hoddie said:

Add  up all the different non-Catholic churches there are, then multiply that with all the Cities, Towns, and villages throughout the world and see what number you come up with.

That's not how it works.  If you group the various churches into their distinctive groups, you end up with a little more than a baker's dozen:

1. Lutheran churches

2. Presbyterian churches

3. Anglican churches

4. Methodist churches

5. United churches

7. Pentecostal churches

8. Baptist Churches

9. Mennonite churches

10. Brethren assemblies

11. Church of God churches

12. Church of Christ churches

13. Seventh Day Adventist churches

14. Bible churches

15. Reformed churches

Of the ones which have not gone liberal, almost all are in agreement on the Gospel, and the sole authority of the Bible. 

[Hoddie]

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

So then, what does that say, should protestants adopt the pontificate ruling of "infallibility"   AND do you agree ?,

To answer this I'd first have to ask you...... would you admit that the Bible is infallible because the Biblical authors were given the gift of infallibility? (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude.) Would you admit all of them wrote infallible truth? Would you insist that the Bible alone is our authority because the Bible is infallible?

Peace

[simplejeff]

You don't/wouldn't / have to ask anything, if you knew the truth and the source of the truth.  

There's never any unity of the ecclesia with those who remain in error willingly.

 

[Hoddie]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

No particular church named in these two verses stated by Jesus;

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Once again Haz, you are trying to use your "Cafeteria Christianity" to make a point. Others may buy into it, but I am not. To get the full meaning of Jn.17:11 you must include the previous ten verses. In his Last Supper discourse Jesus speaks of his glory and the glory of his Father. What is this glory? It is the cross which Jesus speaks of here. How does the cross reveal his glory? In the cross God reveals the breadth of his great love for sinners and the power of redemption which cancels the debt of sin and reverses the curse of our condemnation. Jesus gave his Father the supreme honor and glory through his obedience and willingness to go to the cross. The greatest honor, trust, and love any person can give one's leader is through his obedience even to the point of sacrificing his own life. In warfare the greatest honor belongs not to those who survive but to those who give the supreme sacrifice of their own lives for their fellow countrymen. Jesus also speaks of the Father bringing glory to the Son through the great mystery of the Incarnation and Cross of Christ. God the Father gave us his only begotten Son for our redemption and deliverance from slavery to sin and death. There is no greater proof of God's love for each and every person on the face of the earth than the Cross of Jesus Christ. In the cross we see a new way of love — a love that is unconditional, sacrificial and generous beyond comprehension.

Jesus also speaks of eternal life. What is eternal life? It is more than simply endless time. Science today looks for ways to extend the duration of life; but that doesn't necessarily make life better for us here. Eternal life is qualitative more than quantitative. To have eternal life is to have the life of God within us. When we possess eternal life we experience here and now something of God's majesty, his peace, joy and love and the holiness which characterizes the life of God. Jesus also speaks of the knowledge of God. Jesus tells his disciples that they can know the only true God. Knowledge of God is not simply limited to knowing something about God, but we can know God personally. The essence of Christianity, and what makes it distinct from Judaism and other religions, is the knowledge of God as our Father. Jesus makes it possible for each of us to personally know God as our Father. To see Jesus is to see what God is like. In Jesus we see the perfect love of God -- a God who cares intensely and who yearns over men and women, loving them to the point of laying down his life for them upon the Cross. Jesus is the revelation of God -- a God who loves us completely, unconditionally and perfectly.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

As for Jn.17:22, goes Haz, again you must include verses 20,21,23-26 with verse 22 to get the full gist of it. On the eve of his sacrifice, when Jesus celebrated his last supper with his apostles, he prayed for their unity and for the unity of all who would believe in him and become his disciples. God desires unity for all of his people, for married couples, families, communities, and churches across every land and nation. Sadly division and strife is often the result of personal pride, sin, prejudice, and the failure to love, forgive, and reconcile. That is why prayer is so necessary, both for safeguarding unity and for healing and restoration wherever unity has been broken.

Jesus knew the weakness of his disciples, their competitive spirit to see who would rank first, their dislike for Samaritans and others who were not of their own company, and the fear that would scatter them and make them deny their Lord when Jesus' enemies arrested him in the Garden of Gethsemani and nailed him to the cross on Calvary. John tells us that Jesus loved his own to the very end (John 13:1). Nothing could break nor diminish the love he had for them, not even betrayal and rejection. As disciples of Jesus we are called to love and lay down our lives for all who believe in him. If we are willing to die for our brothers and sisters in Christ, how much more should we strive to live in harmony, love, and unity with one another.

Jesus' high priestly prayer at the last supper is directed towards all who will come after him and follow him as his disciples. In a special way Jesus prays here for us that as members of his body the church we would be united in one heart and mind as he and his Father are one. The unity of Jesus and his Father is a unity of mind and heart, mutal love and trust, honor and respect. Because Jesus loved us first and united us in baptism we are called to live in a unity of love. Jesus’ prayer on the eve of his sacrifice shows the great love and trust he has in his beloved disciples. He knows they would abandon him in his hour of trial, yet he entrusted to them the great task of spreading his name throughout the world and to the end of the ages. The Lord entrust us with the same mission – to make him known and loved by all. Jesus died and rose again that all might be one as he and the Father are one.

　

Peace

[Hoddie]

11 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

You don't/wouldn't / have to ask anything, if you knew the truth and the source of the truth. 

There's never any unity of the ecclesia with those who remain in error willingly.

 

Hey, whats the big deal, they were simple yes or no questions

[woundeddog]

6 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

your "Cafeteria Christianity"

Wikipedia

"Cafeteria Christianity" is a derogatory term used by some Christians, and others, to accuse other Christian individuals or denominations of selecting which Christian doctrines they will follow, and which they will not.^[1]

[HAZARD]

16 minutes ago, Hoddie said:

Once again Haz, you are trying to use your "Cafeteria Christianity" to make a point. Others may buy into it, but I am not. To get the full meaning of Jn.17:11 you must include the previous ten verses. In his Last Supper discourse Jesus speaks of his glory and the glory of his Father. What is this glory? It is the cross which Jesus speaks of here. How does the cross reveal his glory? In the cross God reveals the breadth of his great love for sinners and the power of redemption which cancels the debt of sin and reverses the curse of our condemnation. Jesus gave his Father the supreme honor and glory through his obedience and willingness to go to the cross. The greatest honor, trust, and love any person can give one's leader is through his obedience even to the point of sacrificing his own life. In warfare the greatest honor belongs not to those who survive but to those who give the supreme sacrifice of their own lives for their fellow countrymen. Jesus also speaks of the Father bringing glory to the Son through the great mystery of the Incarnation and Cross of Christ. God the Father gave us his only begotten Son for our redemption and deliverance from slavery to sin and death. There is no greater proof of God's love for each and every person on the face of the earth than the Cross of Jesus Christ. In the cross we see a new way of love — a love that is unconditional, sacrificial and generous beyond comprehension.

Jesus also speaks of eternal life. What is eternal life? It is more than simply endless time. Science today looks for ways to extend the duration of life; but that doesn't necessarily make life better for us here. Eternal life is qualitative more than quantitative. To have eternal life is to have the life of God within us. When we possess eternal life we experience here and now something of God's majesty, his peace, joy and love and the holiness which characterizes the life of God. Jesus also speaks of the knowledge of God. Jesus tells his disciples that they can know the only true God. Knowledge of God is not simply limited to knowing something about God, but we can know God personally. The essence of Christianity, and what makes it distinct from Judaism and other religions, is the knowledge of God as our Father. Jesus makes it possible for each of us to personally know God as our Father. To see Jesus is to see what God is like. In Jesus we see the perfect love of God -- a God who cares intensely and who yearns over men and women, loving them to the point of laying down his life for them upon the Cross. Jesus is the revelation of God -- a God who loves us completely, unconditionally and perfectly.

 

As for Jn.17:22, goes Haz, again you must include verses 20,21,23-26 with verse 22 to get the full gist of it. On the eve of his sacrifice, when Jesus celebrated his last supper with his apostles, he prayed for their unity and for the unity of all who would believe in him and become his disciples. God desires unity for all of his people, for married couples, families, communities, and churches across every land and nation. Sadly division and strife is often the result of personal pride, sin, prejudice, and the failure to love, forgive, and reconcile. That is why prayer is so necessary, both for safeguarding unity and for healing and restoration wherever unity has been broken.

Jesus knew the weakness of his disciples, their competitive spirit to see who would rank first, their dislike for Samaritans and others who were not of their own company, and the fear that would scatter them and make them deny their Lord when Jesus' enemies arrested him in the Garden of Gethsemani and nailed him to the cross on Calvary. John tells us that Jesus loved his own to the very end (John 13:1). Nothing could break nor diminish the love he had for them, not even betrayal and rejection. As disciples of Jesus we are called to love and lay down our lives for all who believe in him. If we are willing to die for our brothers and sisters in Christ, how much more should we strive to live in harmony, love, and unity with one another.

Jesus' high priestly prayer at the last supper is directed towards all who will come after him and follow him as his disciples. In a special way Jesus prays here for us that as members of his body the church we would be united in one heart and mind as he and his Father are one. The unity of Jesus and his Father is a unity of mind and heart, mutal love and trust, honor and respect. Because Jesus loved us first and united us in baptism we are called to live in a unity of love. Jesus’ prayer on the eve of his sacrifice shows the great love and trust he has in his beloved disciples. He knows they would abandon him in his hour of trial, yet he entrusted to them the great task of spreading his name throughout the world and to the end of the ages. The Lord entrust us with the same mission – to make him known and loved by all. Jesus died and rose again that all might be one as he and the Father are one.

　

Peace

 John 17:1-13.

  Jesus prays to his Father.
   

1, These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
    2, As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
    3, And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
    4, I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    5, And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    6, I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
    7, Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
    8, For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
    9, I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
    10, And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
    11, And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    12, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
    13, And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Again, no particular church named in these 13 verses spoken by Jesus;

John 17: 14-26.

14, I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    15, I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    16, They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    17, Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
    18, As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
    19, And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified1 through the truth.
    20, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21, That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22, And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23, I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    24, Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
    25, O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
    26, And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Again, no mention of any church in these Scriptures spoken by Jesus. Its all about UNITY!