The Jewishness of the Olivet Discourse

[Retrobyter]

9 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Excuse me, but EVERYTIME eklektos is used for a people in the New Teatament, it refers to the Church!

Shalom, Marcus.

Does it? OR, is it rather that EVERY TIME eklektos is used for a people in the NT, YOU INTERPRET IT to refer to the "church?!"

[firestormx]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, firestormx.

YES! But, as grafted-in branches from an oleander tree! The ""church" is NOT the superset; the OLIVE TREE is the superset! And, obedient children of Israel and Gentiles are subsets of that tree!

Remember: Who is grafted into whom?

Romans 11:13-18
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
KJV

Ok, I think I see what your saying now. Israel is not replaced and we are not to boost against her. We are elect because through Jesus we have been grafted in with the natural branches which is Israel. I get it now, thanks for explaining what you are saying to me again. 

Edited August 8, 2016 by firestormx

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Not proved.

The point was not about jumping from roof to roof.

The point of His warning was not to go back and get unnecessary stuff when your life is at stake.

Shalom, Marcus.

Think more generally: The point was, "When you see this happening, GET OUT OF TOWN QUICKLY! If you're on the rooftops, get out that way! If you're on the ground, get out that way! In EITHER case, DON'T PACK!"

HOWEVER, the reference to the rooftop is an INDICATOR that we are talking about Jerusalem in the first century! NOT TODAY!

[Retrobyter]

23 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Oh!  Good job changing what Jesus said around when it suits you!

Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

That takes us right up to the 21st century Roy.

 Mt 24:22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

And that tribulation is CUT SHORT.  2000 years?  Not hardly.  

And it's for the Elect - not the Jews.

Shalom, Marcus.

I'm not changing ANYTHING that Yeshua` said. He was talking about "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies," "then shall be terrible pressure," "immediately after the pressure, shall the sun, moon, and stars sign be visible!"

BE CAREFUL WITH ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS! Go back to the KJV if you must, since they tried to translate the passage on a word-by-word basis, but stick to the Greek as much as possible! 

Matthew 24:15-22
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days (Greek: en ekeinais tais heemerais)!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days (Greek: hai heemerai ekeinai) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days (Greek: hai heemerai ekeinai) shall be shortened.
KJV

He wasn't referring to the whole time period being shortened; He was talking about those days of pressure WITHIN that time period being shortened!

[Retrobyter]

26 minutes ago, firestormx said:

Ok, I think I see what your saying now. Israel is not replaced and we are not to boost against her. We are elect because through Jesus we have been grafted in with the natural branches which is Israel. I get it now, thanks for explaining what you are saying to me again. 

Right. You're welcome.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You were saying?

Jesus said not one stone will atop another, that they will all be thrown down as they were walking past the Temple.

They then walk a Sabbath's walk across the Kidrion Valley to the Mount of Olives.

Only half an hour or later do they pop the question.  Jesus does not make that statement in reply to their question.  Arguing for the sake of "winning" does nothing to get to the truth.

Furthermore, since I know you hold onto Partial Preterist teaching on the one 'seven', I categorically dismiss any applicability of the Abomination(s) Desolation to the First Jewish Revolt - and besides NONE of the Apostles were involved in that.  They were all martyred long before with the exception of Paul.  The Church grew outside of Jerusalem.

The King of the North WILL invade in the Gog/Magog war.  Then THOSE IN JUDEA must flee if they are to live to see the Sabbath Millennial Peace of Christ Jesus.

There was no idol erected in the Holy Place with the successful breaching of Jerusalem with the First Jewish Revolt.  They fulfilled what Jesus said as they were beginning their walk, and they also serve as a pointer for the 'ruler who will come' from Daniel 9:26 - which points to the future anti-Christ.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

As for the rest, I am on vacation.  I don't feel like arguing with you incessantly.  Nor do I have access to my books or papers.  

Suffice to say I adamantly disagree with all your points and with good reason.  Again, I am not going to spoil a nice vacation with the wife by taking hours to refute your tar-baby posts. 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

As for the rest, I am on vacation.  I don't feel like arguing with you incessantly.  Nor do I have access to my books or papers.  

Suffice to say I adamantly disagree with all your points and with good reason.  Again, I am not going to spoil a nice vacation with the wife by taking hours to refute your tar-baby posts. 

Hee-Haw!

Seriously, though, then why are you bothering to glut this thread with tripe when you should be spending it with your wife?! Enjoy your vacation!

Edited August 8, 2016 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

On August 7, 2016 at 11:46 PM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

1. God will fulfill those promises and that is what the Millennium is for: the Remnant.

2. Only if you accept Roy's premise, which I do not.

3. The "Church" is ONE body: the Great Multitude; the Bride of Christ.

Shalom, Marcus.

You don't have to respond until you're back from vacation, but actually, the Millennium is not just for the Remnant! It's for ALL of Israel (and those who are grafted into Israel through the Messiah), and it's for all those nations who treated the children of Israel well. Somehow, you've got the notion that the Resurrection is only for those who are "born again." Nothing could be further from the truth! Now, before you claim otherwise as though you've been personally attacked, I simply ask this: Have you ever put the fact that the Millennium is AFTER the Resurrection together with the fact that the OT saints were looking forward to the Resurrection, as well?

`Iyov (Job) said,

Job 19:23-27
23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
24 That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
KJV

Sh'mu'el's mother, Hannah, said,

1 Samuel 2:6
6 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
KJV

David said,

Psalm 16:8-11
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
KJV

Hoshea said,

Hosea 6:1-3
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
KJV

Yesha`yahu said,

Isaiah 26:17-21
17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
KJV

Some think Yechezk'el's prophecy was only symbolic; I don't. I believe that it is a 100% literal prophecy!

Ezekiel 37:1-14
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
KJV

Z'kharyahu said,

Zechariah 12:10-14
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV

And, as I've shown before, these are four names out of Yeshua`s lineage found in Luke 3!

Even Dani'el, quoting the messenger who came to him, said,

Daniel 12:1-3
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
KJV

So, resurrection is NOT just a NT thing!

Therefore, when we compound these passages with those of Yochanan in Revelation 20,...

Revelation 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ (the Messiah) a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah of God), and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

... we're not just seeing those who call themselves "Christians" here!

Two more passages of Scripture to see together:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

When compared to the rest of Revelation 20, this passage, too, is talking about the Millennium.

Ezekiel 34:22-24, 37:24-26
22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle ("sheep and goats").
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
...
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
KJV

This is NOT talking about Yeshua`, giving Him His father David's name; it's talking about Yeshua` assigning David as Israel's king while Yeshua` is ruling over the earth as the LORD'S Representative KING OF KINGS or WORLD EMPEROR!

And, it was to THIS passage that Yeshua` alluded when He said, ...

Matthew 25:31-40
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
KJV

[Flsnookman]

Retrobyter I have been skimming through this thread because it's late and I am old and tired but I must ask a question. When you were referring to Jesus name you gave a hebrew version and a greek version but wouldn't the name that Jesus family and friends used be in aramaic? I may be way off base here but i thought the main language spoken by those in nazereth was aramiac. Again if I am mistaken please enlighten me. Not trying to argue or derail this thread just curious. Thank you.