Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[Guest Robert]

2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Your "mass transit" doctrine contains several glaring errors and others have already pointed them out, but they are the same errors that all post-tribulation proponents make and these two errors render the post-tribulation Rapture position unworkable.

The worst mistake you make is declaring that believers have to be "tested."  That is a horribly un-biblical position.  If people who were already believers needed to be tested, that would render Christ's sacrifice as insufficient to completely pay for a person's sins and it would also mean that one of God's spiritual attributes would be stripped away, that being omniscience.  God knows who is truly His and who is not, so no testing is necessary.  Any statement that alludes to God having to test believers renders Him as not being all-knowing.

The Tribulation is not "persecution."  Persecution is delivered at the hands of other human beings, Satan, and Satan's agents.  The Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on an unbelieving world.  A believer, in the Age of Grace cannot be the victim of God's wrath, since their sins are already paid for by Christ's sacrifice.  The Age of Grace ends at the Rapture and The Church does not enter the Rapture.

The Rapture is not the Second Coming.  At the Second Coming, Jesus returns, physically to the Earth.  He does not do so at the Rapture, he appears in the clouds and calls His believers, both alive and dead who meet Him in the air and Jesus escorts them to Heaven.  Jesus does not return to the Earth at this time.  They are not the same event.

Excellently explained, Cobalt.

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Your "mass transit" doctrine contains several glaring errors and others have already pointed them out, but they are the same errors that all post-tribulation proponents make and these two errors render the post-tribulation Rapture position unworkable.

The worst mistake you make is declaring that believers have to be "tested."  That is a horribly un-biblical position.  If people who were already believers needed to be tested, that would render Christ's sacrifice as insufficient to completely pay for a person's sins and it would also mean that one of God's spiritual attributes would be stripped away, that being omniscience.  God knows who is truly His and who is not, so no testing is necessary.  Any statement that alludes to God having to test believers renders Him as not being all-knowing.

The Tribulation is not "persecution."  Persecution is delivered at the hands of other human beings, Satan, and Satan's agents.  The Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on an unbelieving world.  A believer, in the Age of Grace cannot be the victim of God's wrath, since their sins are already paid for by Christ's sacrifice.  The Age of Grace ends at the Rapture and The Church does not enter the Rapture.

The Rapture is not the Second Coming.  At the Second Coming, Jesus returns, physically to the Earth.  He does not do so at the Rapture, he appears in the clouds and calls His believers, both alive and dead who meet Him in the air and Jesus escorts them to Heaven.  Jesus does not return to the Earth at this time.  They are not the same event.

Shalom, Cobalt1959.

Sorry, but the testing of believers has been going on since the first century, and that testing includes persecution. Not very often in the United States, but certainly in other parts of the world. It is non "un-biblical"; it's as biblical as ...

1 Peter 1:6-9
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls (the rescue of your air-breathers).
KJV

But, it's not that God MUST test them for any portion of their justification ("salvation"), which is COMPLETELY provided by God. It provides a way for His children to GROW! And, sadly, the larger part of Christians in the United States of America (as well as other "civilized societies") are terribly STUNTED in their growth because of their affluence and leisure.

Also, you should know, if you don't already, that God frequently works THROUGH "other human beings, Satan, and Satan's agents."

Isaiah 45:5-7
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
KJV

Proverbs 21:1-3
1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.
KJV

Proverbs 16:9
9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
KJV

Job 1:12
12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
KJV

Job 2:4-6
4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
KJV

This is one of the first things I learned after God started to rework my theology: His will is not the same thing as His plan; God tells us to DO His will, but His plan is NOT ours to have! His will is for us to do whatever we do RIGHTEOUSLY, and He has revealed His will in the Scriptures.

His plan, however, is this:

Ecclesiastes 3:1-14
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
9 What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
10 I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
KJV

Romans 9:13-24
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
KJV

Paul said that the proper way to think about "Why did you let (whatever) happen, God?" is this: "Just who do you think you are to ask God why and think that you would get an answer?! That's not YOUR information to have!"

 

Regarding the deliverance of God's WRATH, don't you know that we will be HELPING to deliver it?

 

And, finally, there are not two "raptures." You said, "The Age of Grace ends at the Rapture and The Church does not enter the Rapture. The Rapture is not the Second Coming." And yet, there IS a "rapture" - a "catching away" by the angels - the messengers - whom God sends with the Messiah when He returns! Matt. 24:30-31; Mark 13:26-27; Luke 21:27-28 are NOT "rapture" passages! They are Second Coming passages!

You also said, "At the Second Coming, Jesus returns, physically to the Earth.  He does not do so at the Rapture, he appears in the clouds and calls His believers, both alive and dead who meet Him in the air and Jesus escorts them to Heaven.  Jesus does not return to the Earth at this time.  They are not the same event." And, that's the rhetoric of pretribulational rapturists, but you have ignored how LITTLE proof you have for some of these statements!

For instance, where does it say that "Jesus escorts them to Heaven?" That's a MADE UP assumption based on the theological position, not Scripture! "And so shall we ever be with the Lord" does NOT mean "Jesus escorts them to Heaven!" Your POSITION teaches that "Jesus does not return to the Earth at this time," but what do the Scriptures say?

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (the sky).
KJV

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

These are SECOND COMING passages!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

Off base doesn't even begin to describe his theory, and it is "his" theory, nothing to do with what the Bible says.

Shalom, RustyAngeL.

Right. If you can't say something constructive, say something destructive. When you can't think of anything to say to argue against the subject, attack the person, eh? Ad hominem attacks mean NOTHING from a debate point of view; sorry, no points.

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, RobertS said:

Excellently explained, Cobalt.

Shalom, RobertS.

... BUT, missing the mark.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, RustyAngeL said:

Thank you Cobalt,

The Bible couldn't be any more clear.  How can you read what it says and come up with something like this.?  Very strange.  And as for your avatar Retro it looks like something right out of the New Age movement. Sorry.

Shalom, again, RustyAngeL.

It is EXTREMELY clear to me that Yeshua` shall not come again, "till ye (the inhabitants of Yerushalayim) shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." (Matt. 23:39)

Really? Attacking my avatar because you don't like the way it looks? Try reading Revelation 21 and 22, first.

[RustyAngeL]

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, RustyAngeL.

Right. If you can't say something constructive, say something destructive. When you can't think of anything to say to argue against the subject, attack the person, eh? Ad hominem attacks mean NOTHING from a debate point of view; sorry, no points.

It was an opinion based on Bible..  it is just so far off target I don't know what to say. I don't see the debate point.  We have spoken the truth so many times and it just keep getting more bazaar.  It's turned into arguing now and that is sad. 

[RustyAngeL]

On 8/21/2016 at 11:41 PM, Ezra said:

Retro does not believe in Heaven.  He thinks the sky is heaven. Which would make the bluebirds the angels.

I never thought about that.

[missmuffet]

If a person denies heaven they also deny God's Holy word.

[RustyAngeL]

On 8/24/2016 at 3:28 PM, Davida said:

But Roy, don't you think what you say about hell contradicts what Jesus said? What about Mathew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." According to the Bible, those who are not saved & born again through Jesus Christ will not go to heaven.

You are preaching that God is only a GOD of Love and not the HOLY GOD who is also Justice and the whole reason why Jesus came to die for our sins is because GOD is JUST and sin requires punishment.

That is exactally what my friend teaches.  She uses one word out of John 3:16 the word parish. After awhile unbelievers will no longer be in hell because they will only be punished according to how bad their sin was. I would suggest to Roy and Martha to read Matthew 25:32-41 that speaks of EVERLASTING fire and eternal punishment.  What do you do with that just throw it out.?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Cobalt1959 said:

The Parousia requires Jesus to return, physically, to the Earth, not simply hover above it in the clouds or in the sky.  The Rapture is not the Second Coming.  They are very clearly, and easily understandable as different events with different reasons for why they occur.  The Rapture is Christ removing His church from the Earth.  The Second Coming is Jesus claim His right as King, and receiving His Kingdom. They are not the same event.  Any person who tries to call the Rapture the Second Coming and then ridicule people who believe in a pre-tribulation and then call the actual Second Coming "the third coming" demonstrate that they do not understand that these are not the same event.  The Rapture is not the Second Coming.

In the detailed, parallel account of Revelation chapters 13-16, Jesus is standing on the earth before the Harvest from the clouds.  So there is an alternative view which comports with that Scripture, where your view does not.

• Midpoint Abomination - Setting up the talking image of the anti-Christ
  • Those in Judea flee / Remnant protected
  • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever
  • “Mikael" arises
  • Two Witnesses 1260 days - call down Wrath
  • Great Tribulation  - the Elect are persecuted
• Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD
  • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
  • Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
  • Jews flee through the cleft of the Mount of Olives
  • Mustering the 144,000 on Mount Zion with Jesus standing upon the earth
  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
    • The Last Trumpet Call of God
    • Dead in Christ are Resurrected
  • Son of Man coming on the clouds with the Saints
  • Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the earth
    • Those who are alive and are left are gathered up
  • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
  • Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
  • First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
    • Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire

In this view, we are exempt from Wrath, in line with your first option, but not the Great Tribulation: and we should never confuse the two as being the same.