markdohle Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 77 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 641 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 15 minutes ago, Yowm said: The Jews did not include them nor did the Apostles or Jesus quote from them. Until the 17th century the Book of Maccabees was consider scripture, that is a fact. Did Luther have the authority to take them out? I would say no to that. So to say that the early church did not accept it is not true. If you don't agree with that, then you bring the whole early canon into question.....the Catholic church put the canon together, so how it is interpreted if goes against the church, is probably being used in a way that it was not intended. In the early church people were not running around with the New Testament lining up quotes to back up their own understandings.....the New Testament is part of the tradition of the Church. You need both, tradition and scripture....though I know you will not agree my friend ;-).....don't expect you to. Peace mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 77 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 641 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 29 minutes ago, tigger398 said: Yes the bible clearly states that. What does judgment mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted September 11, 2016 32 minutes ago, markdohle said: Until the 17th century the Book of Maccabees was consider scripture, that is a fact. Did Luther have the authority to take them out? I would say no to that. So to say that the early church did not accept it is not true. If you don't agree with that, then you bring the whole early canon into question.....the Catholic church put the canon together, so how it is interpreted if goes against the church, is probably being used in a way that it was not intended. In the early church people were not running around with the New Testament lining up quotes to back up their own understandings.....the New Testament is part of the tradition of the Church. You need both, tradition and scripture....though I know you will not agree my friend ;-).....don't expect you to. Peace mark I need scripture. To tell people they can go to a place to be (healed) of their sins is just plain wrong. It is dangerous to speak that. People then think that they can get things straightened out after they die. You will be responsible for what you say to these people. You will have to make an account for your false teaching, just as my friend will be accountable for telling people hell is only for a short period of time. Blessings, RustyAngeL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted September 11, 2016 11 hours ago, markdohle said: Purgatory again (another look) I am shy being here. Though I do post, I do not use scripture the way many do on this site. It seems that each person has their own string of scripture quotes and they then face off with another opponent with their grouping of scriptures and then talk or argue and at times scream at each other over each ones interpretation. I think that is fine, it is how things are often done when talking about the bible. Though here the level of charity seems to be very high, so I have come to respect everyone, even those who disagree with me for we are all one in Christ Jesus….or least I believe that. I tend not to us scripture that way; I feel that it is a waste of time and effort, since it is not possible to change anyone’s mind on just about anything. However people do mature and change over the years. Those who do not, their rigidity can isolate them in their surety and they in the end do little good to reach others. We can fail to see others if we think we are in some way infallible in our interpretation of scripture and those who disagree with us simply do not have the Holy Spirit and perhaps they are on the way to hell. How we love to send others to hell. It says something about the human heart, its inner conflict to actually love as Christ tells us, yet to use hell as a way to dispose of those we don’t agree with. I find it a horror if truth be told. Christ Jesus came to save, yet often, Christians want to make hell as full as possible…though Christ told us not to judge for a reason, because we really, really suck at it. To me the term “Purgatory” represent a state of being and not some place of imprisonment. ““The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence”--- John Paul II. God the Father in Christ Jesus is calling all to a loving relationship. All relationships that have any real love in them, and even those with those we struggle with have a purgatorial aspect to them, they bring out our own inner wounds and struggles to be able to love and to be present with others. The more self centered we are, for instance, the deeper the struggle to become free enough to have an actual loving contact with others. This takes humility, the letting go of blame and a radical acceptance that we are not victims if we choose to understand that most of our problems are based on an inability to love. So it is with our relationship with God the Father as revealed to us by Christ Jesus. I believe that like Jacob we wrestle with God. And like Jacob we are wounded when we do that by God, it causes us to limp. We are made aware of our fragility when God slowly heals us of our self centeredness; we are lead to make choices that cause inner struggle and conflict with ourselves. This is another form of purification and death to self…..this is another purgatorial state. In the Gospel of Luke Jesus says this: Luke 3:16-17 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." This verse can be looked at on different levels. One level is that in our own souls, the chaff will be burned away (be healed) by the infinite fire of God’s love, which is unquenchable. St. Paul talks about that as well: “For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw — each man’s work will become manifest; for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire”. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) So the experience of purgatory is in actuality Gods love continuing the work of salvation in the soul. As we suffer in this life in the dying to self, so it continues if we do not trust or allow God’s love to fill us. If we fear the letting go, it is grace that allows this to continue in purgatory “The fire of loss is the fire of Hell. The saving fire is the purgative fire of Purgatory. The purgative, saving fire brings a soul to full holiness; for “without holiness, no one will see the Lord” (Hebrews 12:14). This is why a soul who desires to dwell with God and glorify God desires to be purified before seeing the face of the Lord. A soul burden with the residuals of sin is encumbered in its ability to glorify God. Through His infinite mercy, God purges the residuals of sin with fire and lovingly draws the soul in. Oh, how our souls should yearn for the fire of Christ’s scared heart, a heart that burns with love and mercy! Oh, to be consumed and purified by the fires of His heart.” I don’t expect this to change any ones mind about the reality of purgatory. However purgatory is still based on God’s saving grace. Souls still being purified are saved by Jesus Christ, it is God who heals and brings his work to completion. I pray for the souls in purgatory because they are still on the way, as I pray for all my brothers and sisters in this world…..Christ calls us each to grow in love and compassion. We are a royal priesthood and Christ Jesus also works in and though us. We are his hands and his feet, his mouthpiece, for we have died and it is Christ Jesus who continues his saving work in our souls, all we need do is to open our hearts and that will lead to praying and loving all others…..judgment is God’s alone, for he is infinite truth and love. So I pray for the salvation of all and am at peace. In judging others, I am only judging myself. Using scripture is never a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.80 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 11, 2016 24 minutes ago, RustyAngeL said: Using scripture is never a waste of time. For those who give the Bible their own words and meaning they often think that Scripture is a waste of time. Especially the book of Revelation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted September 11, 2016 41 minutes ago, missmuffet said: For those who give the Bible their own words and meaning they often think that Scripture is a waste of time. Especially the book of Revelation. Yes miss Revelation 22:18-20 Take away or add too from this Book, not a very pretty picture for those who do either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyAngeL Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 23 Topic Count: 155 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,464 Content Per Day: 1.02 Reputation: 8,810 Days Won: 57 Joined: 03/30/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/12/1952 Share Posted September 11, 2016 1 hour ago, markdohle said: What does judgment mean? Just what it says. Non believers will be judged for not accepting Jesus as Savior. For believers in Jesus we will be judged on what we did with our lives as Christians. Read Matthew Chapter 25 and then tell me that there is a purgatory. There is none just a place of everlasting punishment for those who reject Jesus. No stop in between. Again... It is appointed once for man to die, after that the judgement. A typical false RCC teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 77 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 641 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 19 minutes ago, RustyAngeL said: Just what it says. Non believers will be judged for not accepting Jesus as Savior. For believers in Jesus we will be judged on what we did with our lives as Christians. Read Matthew Chapter 25 and then tell me that there is a purgatory. There is none just a place of everlasting punishment for those who reject Jesus. No stop in between. Again... It is appointed once for man to die, after that the judgement. A typical false RCC teaching. Well St. Paul says we will all be judge on what we have done or failed to do, all of our actions, it does not just deal with those outside of our faith. Though the judgments of God are true, not to be feared, there will be no doubt. St. Paul when he talked about the purifying fire meant just that, it is part of our judgement where all that is dross will be burnt away so that there will be no obstacle to our loving God fully and completely. It is pure grace for we cannot do that ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 77 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 641 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 18 minutes ago, Yowm said: I'll 2nd that motion... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (Joh 5:24) God purifying fire is not condemnation but healing and mercy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted September 11, 2016 Group: Senior Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 77 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 641 Content Per Day: 0.22 Reputation: 328 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Author Share Posted September 11, 2016 19 minutes ago, Yowm said: I'll 2nd that motion... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (Joh 5:24) No, Matt 25 deals with the end of the world where all will be brought forth for the final judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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