sabbath day

[WailingWall]

24 minutes ago, coheir said:

Isa 66 is not part of the new covenant

ALL "Day of the Lord" scriptures are part of the new covenant as they descibe the return of Jesus and what He will do when He arrives. That being said....

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty

Scripture above is found in the new covenant scriptures

Edited November 16, 2016 by WailingWall

[Remnantrob]

On 11/14/2016 at 4:59 PM, shiloh357 said:

The Sabbath is amoral.  Moral commandments pertain to things that we do for, or to other people.  Morals and ethics related to our relationships with other people, such as being fair, just, generous, bitter, angry, and so on.   The commandment to take care of the poor is a moral commandment.  The commandment to not steal, murder, covet, honor one's parents, are moral commandments

So I guess my next question is does morality only deal with our relationships with people?  If so then would the first 3 commandments(of the Decalogue)  be amoral commandments as well?

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, WailingWall said:

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This NEW COVENANT  scripture tells us as believers we are not to touch the unclean thing.

We need to look at the entire pericope:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2Co 6:14-7:1)

The Corinthian church existed in an extremely immoral society/culture.  In v. 14 Paul is not warning them; rather, he is ordering them to stop doing what they are doing.   They are "yoked" with unbelievers. Whatever they are partnering with unbelievers to do, Paul is telling them to stop.  There is to be no fellowship with them.   It doesn't mean to avoid all contact with them, but they were not to be joined with the pagans in any context.

The passage does not have the dietary laws in view.  It has an immoral culture in view and they are to be separate from it.  That is the plain meaning of the text.

Quote

 

ISAIAH 52 [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath REDEEMED Jerusalem. [10] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the SALVATION of our God. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, GO YE OUT from thence, TOUCH NO UNCLEAN THING; GO YE OUT OF THE MIDST OF HER; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Redeemed. Salvation. Words you would find in the new testament concerning Jesus. And as is always the case, you will find whats being said in the new testament has already been said in the old or prophecied.

 

This passage is about the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel.   This is not talking to the Church.  It is talking to Israel.   Israel and the Church are radically separate in Scripture.  If we fail to understand that, we create incoherent theology.

Salvation is a word that has a lot of uses outside of the salvation of our souls, as does the word "redeemed."  Those are not sacerdotal.   Salvation also speaks to the deliverance, restoration, preservation and healing of the nation of Israel.

Quote

 

LEVITICUS 20 [22] Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. [23] And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. [24] But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, WHICH HAVE SEPARATED YOU from other people. [25] YE SHALL THEREFORE PUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLEAN BEASTS AND UNCLEAN, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. [26] And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE.

Be ye separate.

 

Again, that is speaking to Israel.  Every passage has an author and an addressee.   Israel is the addressee.  

Quote

 

DEUT. 14 [8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, IT IS UNCLEAN unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Everywhere theres lots of piggies living piggy lives.......

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

The above scripture is speaking of the “Day of the Lord”. Whats prophecied about that day will come to pass as written

 

The problem is that the passage isn't blaming the judgment on the fact that these Gentiles were eating pigs.   The judgment is coming down on them because of their idolatry.  And it is, again, in the context of Israel's restoration. It has nothing about the church in that.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, WailingWall said:

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

This NEW COVENANT  scripture tells us as believers we are not to touch the unclean thing.

We need to look at the entire pericope:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. (2Co 6:14-7:1)

The Corinthian church existed in an extremely immoral society/culture.  In v. 14 Paul is not warning them; rather, he is ordering them to stop doing what they are doing.   They are "yoked" with unbelievers. Whatever they are partnering with unbelievers to do, Paul is telling them to stop.  There is to be no fellowship with them.   It doesn't mean to avoid all contact with them, but they were not to be joined with the pagans in any context.

The passage does not have the dietary laws in view.  It has an immoral culture in view and they are to be separate from it.  That is the plain meaning of the text.

Quote

 

ISAIAH 52 [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath REDEEMED Jerusalem. [10] The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the SALVATION of our God. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, GO YE OUT from thence, TOUCH NO UNCLEAN THING; GO YE OUT OF THE MIDST OF HER; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Redeemed. Salvation. Words you would find in the new testament concerning Jesus. And as is always the case, you will find whats being said in the new testament has already been said in the old or prophecied.

 

This passage is about the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel.   This is not talking to the Church.  It is talking to Israel.   Israel and the Church are radically separate in Scripture.  If we fail to understand that, we create incoherent theology.

Salvation is a word that has a lot of uses outside of the salvation of our souls, as does the word "redeemed."  Those are not sacerdotal.   Salvation also speaks to the deliverance, restoration, preservation and healing of the nation of Israel.

Quote

 

LEVITICUS 20 [22] Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out. [23] And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them. [24] But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I AM THE LORD YOUR GOD, WHICH HAVE SEPARATED YOU from other people. [25] YE SHALL THEREFORE PUT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CLEAN BEASTS AND UNCLEAN, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. [26] And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE.

Be ye separate.

 

Again, that is speaking to Israel.  Every passage has an author and an addressee.   Israel is the addressee.  

Quote

 

DEUT. 14 [8] And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, IT IS UNCLEAN unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Everywhere theres lots of piggies living piggy lives.......

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. [16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. [17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, EATING SWINE'S FLESH, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

The above scripture is speaking of the “Day of the Lord”. Whats prophecied about that day will come to pass as written

 

The problem is that the passage isn't blaming the judgment on the fact that these Gentiles were eating pigs.   The judgment is coming down on them because of their idolatry.  And it is, again, in the context of Israel's restoration. It has nothing about the church in that.

[Guest shiloh357]

9 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

So I guess my next question is does morality only deal with our relationships with people?  If so then would the first 3 commandments(of the Decalogue)  be amoral commandments as well?

Morality/ethics deal with our human relationships.  The first 4 commandments deal with our relationship with God.  Those commandments are concerned with spiritual, not moral issues.

[Remnantrob]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Morality/ethics deal with our human relationships.  The first 4 commandments deal with our relationship with God.  Those commandments are concerned with spiritual, not moral issues.

thanks for the clarification

[Remnantrob]

23 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The New Covenant isn't between God and the church.  It is the Father and Jesus.  We don't "keep" that covenant.

I understood the New Covenant to be between God and us and Jesus being the intermediary

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Remnantrob said:

I understood the New Covenant to be between God and us and Jesus being the intermediary

No, the New Covenant was cut in Jesus' blood, not ours.    He and the Father are the only guarantors of the Covenant.  No NT writers ever describes us as being in covenant relationship with God the Father, or Jesus.

Everything about this covenant rests on the merits of Jesus alone, not on our ability to keep ourselves saved (we cant). 

Blood covenants are eternal.   If you are in a blood covenant and get out of it, you won't get back in.  The only way to save a person who was able to break God's New Covenant is for Jesus to come back and die again, and that isn't going to happen. So if you got saved and somehow managed to get out of salvation, it's over and there is no way back in.   Blood covenants (and this is a blood covenant) are unbreakable and eternal.

 

[coheir]

1 hour ago, WailingWall said:

ALL "Day of the Lord" scriptures are part of the new covenant as they descibe the return of Jesus and what He will do when He arrives. That being said....

2 COR. 6 [16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. [17] Wherefore come out from among them, and BE YE SEPARATE, saith the Lord, AND TOUCH NOT THE UNCLEAN THING; and I will receive you, [18] And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty

Scripture above is found in the new covenant scriptures

Acts 15:24

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

the Sabbath was/is part of the law. one must keep all the law not just the Sabbath. New covenant followers are NOT under the law.

[WailingWall]

21 hours ago, coheir said:

Acts 15:24

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

the Sabbath was/is part of the law. one must keep all the law not just the Sabbath. New covenant followers are NOT under the law.

ACTS 15 [17] That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [18] Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. [19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among THE GENTILES are turned to God: [20] But that we write unto them, that THEY ABSTAIN FROM POLLUTIONS OF IDOLS, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

ACTS 15 as a whole was speaking as to whether gentiles needed to be circumcized or not.

ACTS 15 [4] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. [5] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That IT WAS NEEDFUL TO CIRCUMCISE THEM, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

ACTS 15 [24] Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, YE MUST BE CIRCUMCISED, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Nothing to do with the 10 commandments. So lets look into what pollution of idols {V 20} is all about. Its there we find that we are to be keeping Gods sabbath day.

LEVITICUS 19 [3] Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and KEEP MY SABBATHS: I am the Lord your God. [4] TURN YE NOT UNTO IDOLS, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the Lord your God.

LEVITICUS 26 [1]Ye shall MAKE YOU NO IDOLS NOR GRAVEN IMAGE, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.

EZEKIEL 20 [16]Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, BUT POLLUTED MY SABBATHS: FOR THEIR HEART WENT AFTER THEIR IDOLS.

I don’t know what the connection might be as to why graven images and idols are a sign that you don’t keep Gods sabbath but if the WORD says so I believe it. We could have a debate on what an idol is but that would go nowhere but in circles. Does your church have any standing images? I know the churches that do keep the sabbath don’t have any standing images or crosses.