kwikphilly Posted November 30, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted November 30, 2016 Quote Firstly Christ was quoting the Torah which you have discarded....so you can not use this as your defence. inChrist FIRSTLY,I am not "defending" anything......you & I & you & many others have been round & round on the Topic of The Law ,that BTW was Written for the Jews BEFORE Jesus was born as a man........I am not,was not & never can be a JEW.....so I have not discarded any LAW that I /we never had in the first place......this is what you have chosen for yourself,then do it ,follow every one of the 613 Laws.....because if you break one then you have broken ALL,under this Covenant that you prescribe vto Quote The Law: The First Five Books The first five books of the Bible are sometimes called the Pentateuch which means “five books.” They are also known as the books of the law because they contain the laws and instruction given by the Lord through Moses to the people of Israel. These books were written by Moses, except for the last portion of Deuteronomy because it tells about the death of Moses. These five books lay the foundation for the coming of Christ in that here God chooses and brings into being the nation of Israel. As God’s chosen people, Israel became the custodians of the Old Testament, the recipients of the covenants of promise, and the channel of Messiah https://bible.org/seriespage/3-law-first-five-books Quote Quote Does he LOVE JESUS"...I would have to wonder....the 2 are not compatible(homosexual/Christian)so I see where you are coming Secondly you are without biblical legal standing to come to such a conclusion as you have no law inChrist Are you contradicting yourself? You are saying we are to obey the Mosaic Law,so how does a homosexual lifestyle not violate that? I don't care to entertain this Topic with you any longer,if I have to show you how the Scriptures describe repentance,a renewing of the mind & putting away the old sinful lifestyle as we become New Creature in Christ then I have nothing else to say as Ted says...... Quote We live with God's Law that's written on our hearts. Anyway, if you like to live according to the Law, why aren't Sacrificing animals as prescribed in the OT? Go ahead and do what you want.. we have the freedom to do so in Christ. Teditis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted November 30, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, inchrist said: What determines sin for us? Sin is what is not of faith. Sin is the transgression of the law. In the case for us in the New Covenant, Sin is the transgression of the law of love, for love is the fulfilling of the law. Edited November 30, 2016 by firestormx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted December 1, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted December 1, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, inchrist said: By the way firestorm Im not having a go at you....I enjoy your reaponses because I can see you are giving thought to them 2 I'm too tired to respond properly now, and tomorrow I got a lot to do, but I will try to answer you tomorrow or Friday at the latest. I have enjoyed the conversation as well. Two people can discuss Jesus and the word and doctrine and not get personal. I don't see winning or victory as proving I'm right. I live my life believing victory comes when I submit to God and give testimony to his truth. If I do that, then I am victorious in Jesus and nobody can take that victory from me. I know that is not what most people consider winning or being victorious. I think to most it means to come out on top. I don't care about that. Pleasing God and speaking his truth, that's what matters to me. God bless Edited December 1, 2016 by firestormx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted December 1, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 1, 2016 Quote ..Ive been asking this over and over, show me what Law you follow or you think you follow? Because its not the mosaic law....Christ is the mosaic law....what are you following? inChrist And you've been answered over & over.............not just by me but many others,,,,funny,we all have the same answer.... Quote Matthew 22:36-40New International Version (NIV) 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Quote In the case for us in the New Covenant, Sin is the transgression of the law of love, for love is the fulfilling of the law. firestorm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted December 1, 2016 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted December 1, 2016 On 11/4/2016 at 7:29 AM, Remnantrob said: What does it mean to be "under the law".... Beloved, To Be Under The Law Means One Is Surely Dead Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. Romans 3:20 (New International Version) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 (New Living Translation) But To Be Under The Blood Of The Lamb Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. Romans 7:4 (English Standard Version) Means One Is Redeemed For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 1 Peter 1:18-19 (Berean Study Bible) ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible) Love, Your Brother Joe ~ Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible) The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable. Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you. It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed. Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully. It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure. It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents. From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted December 2, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2016 inChrist.... You continue to put words in our mouths or twist what we are saying t7o you,I suspect that is the reason hardly anyone wishes to continue having this discussion with you,I know I am very tired of repeating myself ......You are STUCK ion Mosaic Law,were you born of Jewish parents? Is this what you were raise with & have converted to Christianity,can this be why you are having such a difficult time ....just as the EXPERTS in the Law did,right in the very Scripture you keep using as reference?Jesus explained to them & they did not understand just as you are not because they did not see right in front of their nose,their long awaited Messiah,our Lord & Savior...the Promise of the Seed to come was finally come & they could not see Him....& they certainly did not hear Him or Receive His Word Do you know WHY the LAW was put into place?Perhaps that is where the problem lies? Quote It seems exceedingly strange that Bible-believing Christians should advocate such a view, when the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the believer in Christ is not any longer under the Mosaic law in its entirety… Indeed after having been delivered from the law, to deliberately place ourselves once again under its [control] is said to be “falling from grace.” https://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament Do whatever you do but understand this,I/we have been made righteous by the Grace of God,the requirement of righteousness under the Law has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ,my Living Redeemer Who Abides in me/us WE no longer walk in the flesh but in Spirit & in Truth & all because of Jesus Quote Romans 3:21-24 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God, which is attested by the law and the prophets, has been disclosed— 3:22 namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction, 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.3:24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Lean not on y our own understanding.....With love-in Christ,Kwik 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted December 2, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2016 Did you(inChrist)read the link I provided in the last reply?If I keep saying the same thing over & over,which has in fact answered your question then I really don't think a few more times will make a difference,either you Receive Gods Word or you don't....now I am not simply writing you off,I do hope it is a seed well planted & perhaps someone else will water it and the Holy Spirit Will do what He does best?In the article I sent you https://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament I thought that perhaps breaking down the different "systems" of "Law" in the Scriptures would help you to understand the significance & applications of each .....Why do you keep asking who Jesus was speaking to in the 22nd Chapter of the Book of Matthew,we have gone over this already......I answered you I asked you if you were born a Jew & perhaps grew up "under Mosaic Law",you've not answered & of course you are not obliged to if you prefer not to ,it is the only reason I could see how you might be confused ...I'm trying to understand how you believe the things you do? You are very mistaken my friend...... There are no contradictions in Gods Word ,that is why nothing I said to you contrary to his Word.....the Covenant God made with His Chosen people were for THEM Quote The problem with the Israelites was with their heart —their thinking and attitude. The Israelites did not obey God and fulfill their part in their relationship with Him for a simple reason: “. . . Everyone followed the dictates of his evil heart” (Jeremiah 11:8). God, however, had a solution: a different covenant, a new covenant, that would correct the problem. Notice God prophesied He would someday create a new heart in His people by giving them His Spirit so they would obey Him: “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God” (Ezekiel 36:26-28). https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-study-course/bible-study-course-lesson-7/the-need-for-a-new-covenant Quote “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption through which we cry, ‘Abba, Father!’” (Romans 8:13-15, New American Bible). God’s Spirit empowers us to put to death the deeds of the body, the evil works of the flesh such as adultery, fornication, hatred, jealousy, anger and selfishness (Galatians 5:19-21). When we have God’s Spirit dwelling in us, it enables us to have an attitude of enthusiastically and from the heart wanting to submit to God and follow His lead. What is different in the New Covenant? “ ‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah . . . This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel: After those days,’ says the Lord, ‘I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people’ ” (Jeremiah 31:31-33; compare Hebrews 8:10; Hebrews 10:16). https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/bible-study-course/bible-study-course-lesson-7/the-need-for-a-new-covenant We are grafted in to Gods Family,this does not mean we become Jewish and for the Jew this does not mean he is bound by the Law of the Old Covenant......There is no more separation Jew or Gentile,slave or free man etc.... There is a New Covenant ....there are still "rules" but you need to have Understanding of what they are,which were fulfilled by Christ & no longer applicable(like animal sacrifice etc...) Quote Some of the requirements of the Old Covenant, such as animal sacrifices and temple rituals, pointed to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which replaced them when He died for our sins (Hebrews 9:1-14; Hebrews 10:1-14). However, the laws of God that were the foundation of the Old Covenant relationship are also the foundation of the New Covenant relationship. Now they are infused in the hearts and minds of God’s people instead of only written on stone or scrolls. Quote Once a young man asked Jesus, “What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Jesus responded, “. . . If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments ‘” (Matthew 19:16-17). Rules are involved in any relationship. God’s laws were part of the Old Covenant. They are also part of the New Covenant. With the help of the Holy Spirit, we can have a heart able to respond much differently from those ancient Israelites who rejected God’s way of life. And yes,you are putting words in our mouths,we never said we disregard the Torah,the OT,the OC or Mosaic Law....the problem is you do not know how to differentiate which are applicable & which are not.....this is why I have offered you some information that explains this which seems to me you have ignored?Actually,no one can show you this except Holy Spirit,He burns it into your heart.....the Book of Galations(5th Chapter)is what I suggest for you to study,I believe I am done here....... Peace,Love,Wisdom & Understanding .......in Christ Jesus With love-in Christ,Kwik 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted December 2, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted December 2, 2016 Quote Kwikphilly quote It seems exceedingly strange that Bible-believing Christians should advocate such a view, when the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the believer in Christ is not any longer under the Mosaic law in its entirety… Indeed after having been delivered from the law, to deliberately place ourselves once again under its [control] is said to be “falling from grace.” Again.....And I cannot repeat myself over & over IN ITS ENTIRETY is what "I" said & everything I've been saying all along,including the links I provided for you Quote Firstly how could anyone differentiate what laws in the mosaic law is applicable Well,that's a start.....besides all the information I gave you defining the different systems,that should help you to understand what is applicable & what is not .....also,read Romans 8:13-15 and the 5th Chapter of the Book of Galations,it is the Holy Spirit that empowers you to walk in Spirit & in Truth ,the laws that are applicable(the commands,rules) will be in your mind & Written on your heart(says JESUS) ........HOLY SPIRIT Quote So the first step is to clarify if the Mosaic Law is applicable? Is it? No,I suppose it would be safe to say that unless you are walking in SPIRIT you cannot differentiate ......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Teditis Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I agree with Kwik, that it requires somebody to be "walking in the Spirit" in order for them to have a fuller understanding. That's because it's not until we're "born-again" that God writes His Laws on our Hearts. But the gist of the matter is that we aren't supposed to return to Judaism in order to live a Godly life. We don't have to sacrifice animals, wear the clothes they wear, eat the foods they eat, we can cut our hair the way we like, eat anything on the menu, wear culturally appropriate clothes, get tattoos and piercings... anything that Gentiles do is acceptable to God as long as we follow the basic tenants that we Love God and our neighbor as ourselves. God parses out any "grey-areas" in our heart. So that "parsing out" would preclude us engaging in activities that God has stated He abhors... marriage and divorce, sexual sin, following after material things as a way of life... idolatry. We let the OT law be our "schoolmaster" without subjugating ourselves to the law all over again. We are obedient to God out of Love and He directs our paths. You see, we let the Holy Spirit guide us in all matters and stay in an open communicative state with God through praying without ceasing. That's how I see it any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted December 3, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) On 12/1/2016 at 0:08 AM, inchrist said: So my question maintaince for those who disgard the Mosaic Law and Christs teachings of the Mosaic Law...what Law are you subscribing to? 3 Warning this is going to be a very long post. Sorry, it took me so long to get back to you. One of my kids has a cold as do I. Plus errands and schools stuff for kids has put a limit on my time the last couple of days. I am going to try to answer several of your questions that I have not really answered. What I am going to post will answer a lot of questions you have asked me. But the first question it answers is " what law do we follow ? " also " how do we know what laws apply to us as Christians and which don't ? " . It will take a very long post to answer these questions. First, let's deal with sacrifice. why did they sacrifice animals in the old testament? Why don't we today? most would say " because of Jesus sacrifice on the cross " . Ok, but why? The answer is really simple. God's words and laws are eternal. See God said, " without the shedding of blood there can be no remission ( forgiveness) of sin ". So all of the Sacrificial things in the law. All the stuff about what to sacrifice, when to sacrifice can all be boiled down to the law of God which is eternal. The law of God which will never change. The Law of God that applied in the garden of Eden. It applied in Moses day. It applies today. It will apply on judgment day. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin. In the old testament, it was accomplished through animal sacrifice which had to be redone over and over. In the new testament, it was done by Jesus once and that one sacrifice of Jesus was the perfect Sacrifice. Both old and new covenants had the same goal. Remission of sin. But go about achieving it in different ways. The old covenant sacrifices were temporary, the new covenant through Jesus is permanent. So all the old testament things about sacrifice in the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Jesus. It wasn't destroyed. It wasn't just thrown out. A better way to achieve the same goal of remission sin was put in place. Therefore, Christians today don't follow anything in the Law of Moses about Sacrifice of animals. It was fulfilled and all who place their faith in Jesus Have his sacrifice and shedding of his blood apply for their sin. Why? Because without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission/forgiveness of sin. Now let's deal with food and clothes and ritual bathing and the such in the law of Moses. What was the purpose of these things in the law of Moses? Why the restrictions on what to eat? Why the restrictions on what they could wear? Once again because the Law of the living God and Jesus Christ is eternal. It doesn't change. So what law or principle am I talking about? what was the reason for all of these restrictions? The Lord said, " Be Holy for the Lord your God is Holy ". All these restrictions are based on holiness or being clean or being righteous. that was the reason for the restrictions on what to eat and wear. That is why they were told not to touch dead bodies and not to touch anything " unclean " . God wanted and demanded his people be Holy. Does this principle apply today? Yes, it does. Once again it is an eternal principle of God that will never change and will always apply. Likewise, it also has changed through Jesus. For the bible declares we are the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ. That what he makes clean is completely clean. See in the new testament, We have the exact same requirement of holiness but it is accomplished in a different but better and perfect way. It is accomplished now perfectly in Jesus Christ. The word is clear that our works will never attain righteousness in the eyes of God. Our Holiness/righteousness comes from Jesus. The Same goal in both the Old and New covenants but achieved in different ways. So all the stuff in the Law of Moses about being clean has not been destroyed in Jesus. It has not been done away with in Jesus. It has been fulfilled in Jesus. So that now we look only to Jesus Christ for our righteousness. All the stuff in the old testament about restrictions on what to eat and wear. the restrictions on when to bath and who and what they could touch. All these things don't apply to us Christians because the same goal of Holiness is achieved in Jesus. What about Homosexuality? Is it still a sin? What about adultery? is it still a sin? Now let's look at the Moral parts of the Law of Moses. See it was believed for most of the time of the old testament that you had to actually commit adultery to be guilty of this sin. When Jesus come and said, " if you look at someone in lust you have committed adultery already " . It took people by surprise. Jesus taught over and over that God looks at the heart or the motive. But what most didn't understand was that God has always looked at the heart and motive. Go look at the story of Noah and the flood and you will find a place where God says " The thought's and intents of their hearts are evil continually ". Look at when God sent the Prophet to find the next king of Israel to follow saul. The Prophet went to the best looking and strongest in the flesh of the house of Jesse. But God said that he looks inward at the heart. See once again God's law is eternal. God has always looked at the heart or motive. The reason for Don't steal or don't kill is simple. Love. Love is the reason behind the Moral laws in the law of Moses. If you Love God you will not commit homosexuality because it rebels against God and the order he established with man and women becoming one flesh. If you love your neighbor you will not steal from him. If you love your neighbor you will not lie to him. Jesus was very clear that not only does the Law of love still apply. But if love is not the motive from your heart you are in danger. Once again Jesus took the law of Moses, this time the moral parts of it , and clarified the eternal , never changing aspects of the Law on morality. See, no longer are these just written down laws or rules. But through Jesus Christ they became a part of the very nature of all who have been born again and made a new creature in Jesus Christ. So that we can have the same nature of love in Jesus that the Father in Heaven has. That we from our hearts can be molded in Jesus to be more and more like him. So that we may be called the Children of God. We today do not follow the law of Moses as given to the Israelites in the wilderness. We follow Jesus. The law of Moses in its entirety is fulfilled in Jesus. Our salvation, our holiness, and our morality are in Jesus Christ. Apart from Jesus, we have no hope. I hope this clarifies for you what my position on the law is. What I follow and why. I see Jesus as my only hope. He made a New testament or new covenant which in every way is better than the Old, it is perfect. Our hope is Jesus. He is worthy of all praise and glory. For the entirety of our salvation rests with him. God Bless Firestormx Joseph Edited December 3, 2016 by firestormx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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