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[Guest Teditis]

5 hours ago, heyvavhey said:

 

 

Sorry if this has already been said in the previous 6 pages of discussion....but this is Mormon doctrine. 

It does sound a bit like false doctrine of somebody's making... I hadn't considered Mormon but now

that you mention it, it does have that creepy other-worldly ring to it. They also take Scripture and torture

it to death to make up some pretty far-out stuff.

[heyvavhey]

41 minutes ago, Teditis said:

It does sound a bit like false doctrine of somebody's making... I hadn't considered Mormon but now

that you mention it, it does have that creepy other-worldly ring to it. They also take Scripture and torture

it to death to make up some pretty far-out stuff.

 

 

If you die a good man, you become a star in the heavens. The planets/satelites around you are your wives, I think?

[heyvavhey]

2 hours ago, HAZARD said:

"all the sons of God shouted for joy"

These were angels (Job 38:7 ; Job 1:6 ; Job 2:1)

 

 

Maybe that's where the Mormons got it?

[HAZARD]

5 hours ago, Teditis said:

It does sound a bit like false doctrine of somebody's making... I hadn't considered Mormon but now

that you mention it, it does have that creepy other-worldly ring to it. They also take Scripture and torture

it to death to make up some pretty far-out stuff.

They also refuse to believe, and do not believe many parts of the word of God because their eyes have been closed by the devil,  like some I know!

[Retrobyter]

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

1. The following facts prove that the term "in the beginning" in Genesis 1:1 refers to the original creation of the heavens and the earth, and does not refer to the time or work of the six days of Genesis 1:3-2:25:

(1) The word "and" is used 153 times in Genesis 1-2 to separate the 102 independent acts of God. The "and" of Genesis 1:2 proves that the work of Genesis 1:2 is entirely independent of the work of Genesis 1:1. While Genesis 1:1 records the original creation of the heavens and the earth, Genesis 1:2 records the original dry land, or earth, made into chaos and flooded through a great catastrophe which destroyed all life on a pre-Adamite earth.

As I've said before, Hebrew works differently than does English. It's a "Hebraism" to connect all the statements in a discourse with the connective, "v-." The "vav" prefix simply joins the parts of a discourse together into a whole. And, the "vav" prefix, whether it is pronounced "vuh," "vay," or "oo," is usually translated as "and." That's just the whim of the translator, since WHEN it is actually intended to connect nouns or pronouns or verbs or ... whateve, it usually means "and." However, it also works to connect WHOLE THOUGHTS into one discourse!

On the other hand, the first statement in a Hebrew discourse is a summary of what is to follow! That's the way with Jewish literature! Balk at it all you want; your wish does not make it otherwise!

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(2) The word "was" in Genesis 1:2 is from the verb to become, not the verb to be, proving that the earth became waste and empty since its original creation and habitation in the beginning. 

No. You're not being honest.

OT:1961 haayaah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

KJV - beacon,  altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall,  follow, happen,  have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require,  use.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word "haayaah" can mean "to be" as easily as it can mean "to become." You're grasping at straws, hoping your interpretation is correct, when you know good and well that it is NOT! The word IN Genesis 1:2 is "haaytaah."

The same word was used in Genesis 29:17:

Genesis 29:17
17 Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.
KJV

Here, it's a statement of fact, "and Rachel WAS beautiful" (v-Raacheel haaytaah yfaat to'ar), not a condition she had become! How was Ya`aqov (Jacob) to have experienced that she had BECOME beautiful? As far as he knew, she had ALWAYS been beautiful! Thus, here, the word was translated as "WAS" and rightly so!

The word is also used in Genesis 11:30 for Sarai's condition: 

Genesis 11:30
30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child.
KJV

Obviously, she did not "become" barren; she already "WAS" barren.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(3) The phrase "without form" in Genesis 1:2, is from the Hebrew tohuw (OT:8414), meaning waste or desolation. It is translated "waste" (Deut. 32:10), "without form" (Genesis 1:2; Jeremiah 4:23), "vain" (Isaiah 45:18; 1 Samuel 12:21), "confusion" (Isaiah 24:10; Isaiah 34:11; Isaiah 41:29), "empty" (Job 26:7), "vanity" (Isaiah 40:17,23; Isaiah 44:9; Isaiah 59:4), "nothing" (Job 6:18; Isaiah 40:17), and "wilderness" (Job 12:24; Psalm 107:40). It can be seen from these passages what the condition of the earth was in Genesis 1:2. Yet Isaiah 45:18 states that God did not create the earth "in vain," or tohuw (OT:8414). Therefore, the earth was originally perfect, dry land, beautiful, and inhabited, but later became empty, waste, and a ruin because of sin (Deut. 32:4; Eccles. 3:11).

Again, you're not being honest.

OT:8414 tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:

KJV - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word says NOTHING about how it "came to be" in that condition.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(4) The Hebrew for "void" in Genesis 1:2 is bohuw (OT:922), "empty, ruined, void." It is translated "void" (Genesis 1:2; Jeremiah 4:23), and "emptiness" (Isaiah 34:11). The Hebrew phrase, tohuw wabohuw, "waste and empty," describes the chaotic condition of the earth at the time that it was cursed and flooded because of the sins of Lucifer and the pre-Adamites. It doesn't refer to the earth as originally created-beautiful, perfect, dry land.

Again, you are SUPPLYING the ASSUMPTION that the earth at the time of Genesis 1:2 was "cursed and flooded because of the sins of Lucifer and the pre-Adamites." This is all SPECULATION on your part as the text never says ANY SUCH THING! Jeremiah 4:23 only SEEMS to have the same time frame as that of Genesis 1:2 because of a similar phrase, "tohuw v-Vohuw"; however, they are NOT talking about the same events AT ALL! 

YirmeYahuw (a.k.a. Jeremiah) is talking about the desvastation of Israel after the armies of Nebuchadnezzar went through the Land, pillaging and plundering and burning and killing and taking captives. What they left behind of the Land was "tohuw v-Vohuw!" The Land of Israel was left a wasteland and void of life! Read Jeremiah 4:23-26 WITHIN THEIR CONTEXT!

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

2. The earth was created to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18), and was inhabited before the flood of Genesis 1:2 and the work of the six days of Adam's time (Genesis 1:3-2:25; Isaiah 14:12-14; Jeremiah 4:23-26; Ezekiel 28:11-17; 2 Peter 3:5-7).

When you said, "The earth was created to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18)," you're right. The earth INDEED was meant to be populated by animals and people. However, when you added, "and was inhabited before the flood of Genesis 1:2 and the work of the six days of Adam's time (Genesis 1:3-2:25; Isaiah 14:12-14; Jeremiah 4:23-26; Ezekiel 28:11-17; 2 Peter 3:5-7)," you've added UNPROVEN CONJECTURE! NONE of these verses prove that conjecture! Neither Isaiah 14:12-14 nor Ezekiel 28:11-17 are talking about some character named "Lucifer" but were prophecies against the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, respectively. Jeremiah 4:23-26 is talking about the aftermath of the attack by Babylon on Judah. And, 2 Peter 3:5-7 is about NOACH'S Flood! 

Noach's (Noah's) Flood was neither a local flood nor was it a tranquil flood. It was a GLOBAL KILLER, and it was accompanied by the "fountains of the great deep being broken up." Look, water seeks its own level and this water inundated the earth until the highest mountain (at the time before the Flood) was covered (at least) 15 cubits (22.5 feet, the draft or draught of the arc's hull)! Everyone knows that it "rained for forty days and forty nights," but what they do NOT realize is that this Flood lasted for OVER A YEAR before it subsided to current ocean levels!

Furthermore, the weight of the water, the water pressure of the height of this water, was high enough to cause the valleys between mountains to sink, pushing the mountains higher due to the see-saw effect on the plastic nature of the earth's crust. When one looks at the mountain ranges on a land mass, one will discover that the mountains will generally follow the coastlines, several miles away, mind you, but following the coasts. The Rocky Mountains follow the Pacific coastline, all the way down into South America, btw. The Appalachians follow the Atlantic coastline. Even the great Himalayans are snapped up from the Indian ocean surrounding the area of the Indian peninsula.

Thermal conditions were greatly disrupted, as well. Volcanism went with the techtonic shifts, and with the volcanism, great ash clouds covered much of the jet streams' paths in both the northern and the southern hemispheres of the earth. This caused a rapidly-beginning ice age that lasted a few hundred years after the Flood. Mammoths in the tundras of Russia were frozen in blocks of ice with fresh buttercups still in their mouths and bellies, flash frozen such that the meat of the mammoths and the vegetation was still fresh!

No, the catastrophe called "the Flood" was not even close to being "tranquil!"

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

3. The earth is called "dry land" in Genesis 1:10 which means that Genesis 1:1 could read, "In the beginning God created the heaven and dry land." Since it was created dry, it stands to reason that the flooded condition of Genesis 1:2 was a curse, not a creative act. According to Psalm 136:6 the earth was originally "stretched above the waters," not covered by them. This requires a pre-Adamite race whose sin brought such a curse.

You're neglecting the most important part of Genesis 1:10:

That's when the "dry land" was CALLED "EARTH!" (Hebrew: ERETS!) There was NO "earth" before verse 10!

Psalm 136:1-9
1 Give thanks to Adonai, for he is good,
for his grace continues forever. 
2 Give thanks to the God of gods,
for his grace continues forever. 
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords,
for his grace continues forever; 

4 to him who alone has done great wonders,
for his grace continues forever; 
5 to him who skillfully made the heavens, (hashaamayim, Gen. 1:6-8)
for his grace continues forever; 
6 to him who spread out the earth (haa'aarets) on the water, (Gen. 1:9-10)
for his grace continues forever; 
7 to him who made the great lights, (owriym gdoliym, Gen. 1:16)
for his grace continues forever; 
8 the sun (hashemesh) to rule the day, (Gen. 1:16b)
for his grace continues forever; 
9 the moon and stars (hayaareeach vkowkhaaViym) to rule the night, (Gen. 1:16c)
for his grace continues forever; 
CJB

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

4. In Genesis 1:2 the earth is not only flooded with water but covered in total darkness, causing all life on earth to be destroyed. This requires a pre-Adamite world with vegetation, birds, animals, and human beings as proven in the notes on Jeremiah 4:23-26.

This passage proves nothing of the sort:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai,
“yes, return to me; and if you will banish
your abominations from my presence
without wandering astray again;
2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’
in truth, justice and righteousness;
then the nations will bless themselves by him,
and in him will they glory.”

3 For here is what Adonai says
to the people of Y’hudah (Judah) and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem):
“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed,
and do not sow among thorns.”

4 “People of Y’hudah (Judah) and inhabitants of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem),
circumcise yourselves for Adonai,
remove the foreskins of your heart!
Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire,
burning so hot that no one can quench it,
because of how evil your actions are. 

5 “Announce in Y’hudah (Judah), proclaim in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem);
say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’
Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble!
Let us go to the fortified cities!’
6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon (Zion),
head for cover without delay.
For I will bring disaster from the north,
yes, dire destruction.
7 A lion has risen from his lair,
a destroyer of nations has set out,
left his own place to ruin your land,
to demolish and depopulate your cities.” 

8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth,
lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger
has not turned away from us. 

9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“the king’s heart will fail him,
likewise the princes’;
the cohanim (priests) will be appalled
and the prophets stupefied.” 

10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”

11 “At that time it will be said
of this people and of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem):
‘A scorching wind from the desert heights
is sweeping down on my people.’
It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;
12 this wind of mine is too strong for that.
Now I will pass sentence on them.” 

13 Here he comes, like the clouds,
his chariots like the whirlwind,
his horses faster than eagles!
Woe to us, we are doomed!
14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim (Jerusalem),
so that you can be saved.
How long will you harbor within yourselves
your evil thoughts?
15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim (Ephraim): 

16 “Report it to the nations,
proclaim about Yerushalayim (Jerusalem):
‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country,
watching and shouting their war cry
against the cities of Y’hudah (Judah).’
17 Like guards in a field they surround her,
because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.
18 “Your own ways and your actions
have brought these things on yourselves.
This is your wickedness, so bitter!
It has reached your very heart.” 

19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain!
My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! —
because I have heard the shofar sound;
it’s the call to war.
20 The news is disaster after disaster!
All the land is ruined!
My tents are suddenly destroyed,
my tent curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see that signal
and hear the shofar sound?

22 “It is because my people are foolish —
they do not know me; they are stupid children,
without understanding, wise when doing evil;
but they don’t know how to do good.” 

23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void —
and at the sky — it had no light.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook —
all the hills moved back and forth (shimmered).
25 I looked, and there was no human being;
all the birds in the air had fled.
26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert,
all the land’s cities were razed to the ground
at the presence of Adonai,
before his burning anger. 

27 For here is what Adonai says:

“The whole land will be desolate
(although I will not destroy it completely).
28 Because of this, the land will mourn
and the sky above be black;
for I have spoken, I have decided,
I will not change my mind, I will not turn back.” 

29 At the noise of the horsemen and archers,
the entire city flees —
some plunge into thickets; others climb rocks;
all cities are deserted; no one lives there.
30 And you, who are doomed to be plundered,
what do you mean by putting on crimson,
decking yourselves with jewels and gold,
enlarging your eyes with eye make-up?
You beautify yourself in vain —
your lovers despise you, they seek your life!
31 For I have heard a sound like a woman in labor,
in anguish giving birth to her first child.
It is the sound of the daughter of Tziyon (Zion)
gasping for breath as she spreads her hands:
“Woe to me! Everything in me
is so weary before the killers.” 
CJB

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

5. Genesis 1:2 reveals that the earth, waters, and darkness were already in existence before the work of the six days which began in Genesis 1:3 and continued until the earth was restored to a second habitable state in Genesis 2:25.

Genesis 1:2 simply shows that the planet, still unformed, was covered with water and sat in darkness.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

Thus, it is clear from Genesis 1:1-2 (and related scriptures) that:
(1) In the beginning-the dateless past, not six thousand years ago-God created the heavens, including the sun, moon, and stars.

No, the introduction of the Creation account in verse 1 shows us that 6,000 years ago, it WAS "the beginning" when God started to create the skies, including "the greater light" (which Psalm 136:8 recognized as "the sun"), "the lesser light" (which Psalm 136:9 recognized as "the moon") and "the stars."

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(2) At the same time God also created the earth or dry land.

Yes, within these six days of Creation, God DID create the "dry land" which He named "the earth."

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(3) The heavens and the earth were created by God, a personal and an eternal Being. They were not the result of a cosmic accident.

Of course, it wasn't a "cosmic accident!" God, a personal and an eternal Being, DID create "the heavens" (hashaamayim) on Day 2 (Gen. 1:6-8) and He DID create "the earth" (haa'aarets) on Day 3 (Gen. 1:9-13).

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(4) The heavens were created before the earth, as revealed in Job 38:4-7.

No, God was telling Iyov (Job) that this was about the Flood of water on the earth during Noach's lifetime.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(5) Both the heavens and the earth were created before the earth was flooded.

Yes, both the skies and the ground were created before the ground was flooded during Noach's lifetime.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(6) The earth was created dry land, not wet and flooded (Genesis 1:1,10; Isaiah 45:18).

The ground was not even visible yet in Genesis 1:1 and was not so UNTIL Genesis 1:10. Regardless, the earth or the ground was indeed meant to be inhabited when it did become visible in Genesis 1:10.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(7) The waters that flooded the dry land were created in the beginning along with the earth, to cause the dry land to become productive (Job 38:4-30), not to curse the earth as in Genesis 1:2.

The waters as they existed BEFORE God started His creative acts were NOT a "curse"; Genesis 1:2 merely describes the state of the planet BEFORE God started creating.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(8) Light and darkness was also created in the beginning, to help sustain life on the earth (Job 38:4-41).

No, Job 38:4-41 are talking about the reforming of the earth AFTER the Flood of Noach's lifetime.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

(9) The earth alone was cursed, flooded, and filled with darkness-not the heavens (Genesis 1:2).

The ground was NOT "cursed" in Genesis 1:2. It was merely unformed before God began His creative works.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

We therefore conclude that Genesis 1:1-2 proves a pre-Adamite world that was destroyed in a flood, requiring the making of the present Adamite world for God's original purpose for the earth to be realized (Isaiah 45:18).

YOU may make such conclusions, but they are UNFOUNDED ON FACT! There was no "pre-Adamite world" (other than for the first 5 days).

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

6. Genesis 1:2 reveals the Spirit of God moving on the flooded earth to restore dry land. This confirms that the pre-Adamite world was destroyed, making it necessary to restore the earth to a second habitable state.

God's WIND was moving upon the flooded earth, as He was PREPARING to begin His creative acts. It confirms NOTHING about some fictitious "pre-Adamite world" which supposedly was destroyed and restored.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

7. In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation-which is also true of the two universal floods (Genesis 6:8-8:22; Exodus 10:21-23; Isaiah 5:30; Jeremiah 4:23-26). All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 8:12; Rev. 9:2; Rev. 16:10; Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20). Could we say that Genesis 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn't an option, then Genesis 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood. No one questions that Noah's flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Genesis 1:2?

There was no "universal flood" nor was there "judgment" in Genesis 1:2. It's just a verse describing this planet BEFORE God began His creative works to produce a biosphere habitable by human beings as well as the plants and animals.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

8. The command for Adam to "replenish" the earth (fill it again, not plenish it) proves the earth had been filled before this (Genesis 1:28). God gave the same command to Noah, after the second universal flood (Genesis 9:1-2). Should we conclude that God meant for Noah to fill the earth for the first time, and not refill it? Substitute the word fill (meaning supply for the first time) in Genesis 9:1; Isaiah 2:6; Isaiah 23:2; Jeremiah 31:25; Ezekiel 26:2; Ezekiel 27:25, as some do in Genesis 1:28 and see if it makes better sense. Whatever we conclude in the other places where "replenish" is used, we should be consistent and give the same meaning to Genesis 1:28.

God's command to Adam was to FILL the earth (for the first time). God didn't need "do-overs." And, yes, God gave the same command to Noach because they were to FILL the earth (for the first time in the SECOND age after the Flood). And, keep the deep discussions of the Bible to the original languages, such as Hebrew in the OT. English doesn't have the answers.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

9. The fact that Lucifer had already ruled the earth and become a fallen creature before Adam's time is proof that Adam and his race were not the first ones on earth. We must acknowledge that Satan's fall was before Adam's time, because he was already a fallen creature when he came into Adam's Eden (Genesis 3; 2 Cor. 11:3). Hence, he must have fallen with a pre-Adamite creation.

There IS NO SUCH "FACT!" Instead, we read that the SERPENT was later called "the devil" ("the slanderer") and "haSatan" (Hebrew for "the Enemy" in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

10. According to Isaiah 14:12-14, Lucifer actually invaded heaven from earth, hoping to defeat God and take His kingdom; but Lucifer himself was defeated and his kingdom cursed. Before his defeat, he had a throne, implying a kingdom and subjects to rule over. His kingdom was under the clouds, under the stars, and under heaven-therefore, on earth. Having weakened the nations over whom he ruled, and wanting to be like God and take His place in heaven, Lucifer led the invasion of heaven. All this had to be before Adam's day, because no such things have occurred since Adam was created.

No, you're reading a prophecy against the king of Babylon and misinterpreting what was said!

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

11. Ezekiel 28:11-17 pictures Lucifer before he fell, as the anointed cherub or protector of the earth, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, ruling in a garden of Eden (before Adam), created by God and perfect in his ways up to the time of his fall. The passage gives both the reason for his fall and the results. The only time this could have been true of Satan was before the days of Adam, thus proving a pre-Adamite world.

No, you're reading a prophecy against the king of Tyre and misinterpreting what was said!

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

12. In Jeremiah 4:23-26 we have a full description of the earth under a total curse, as in Genesis 1:2. It was desolate and empty. The heavens had no light, the hills and mountains were undergoing convulsions, and there was neither man, bird, animal, nor fruitful place; no city was left standing because of God's fierce anger. The only time Jeremiah could have seen the earth "without form and void" was at the same time that Moses saw it thus, as recorded by him in Genesis 1:2. There never has been a time from Adam until now when the earth was in such a state-not even at the time of Noah's flood-and there will never be a time of such a curse in the eternal future. The only time Jeremiah 4:23-26 could be fulfilled was before Adam, because the earth was in that condition when the Spirit began the six days' work of restoring it to a second habitable state (Genesis 1:2-21). Regarding the future, this will never be the condition of the earth again, because at His second coming Christ will begin to reign over all nations on earth forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end (Genesis 8:22; Genesis 9:12; Isaiah 9:6-7; Isaiah 59:21; Daniel 2:44-45; Daniel 7:13-14,18,27; Zech. 14; Luke 1:32-33; Rev. 1:6; Rev. 5:10; Rev. 11:15; Rev. 20:4-10; Rev. 22:4-5). Even the renovation of heaven and earth at the end of the Millennium will not make the earth desolate as pictured in Genesis 1:2 and Jeremiah 4:23-26 (see notes, Romans 8:19-25; Hebrews 1:10-12; Hebrews 12:25-28; 2 Peter 3:10-13). Therefore, Jeremiah 4:23-26 must refer to the same judgment as Genesis 1:2, proving further that a real social system-human beings, birds, fruitful places, cities-existed before Adam.

This is just sheer nonsense. You're not reading the prophecy of YirmeYahuw for understanding. You're not letting the Scriptures speak to you (exegesis). You're FORCING your own interpretation upon the Scriptures (eisegesis), which is TOTALLY against good biblical interpretation.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

13. Psalm 104:5-9 speaks of God sending a flood on the earth after its creation, at which time the waters stood above the mountains. Psalm 104:7 identifies this as Lucifer's flood, saying "At Thy rebuke they fled." In the case of Noah's flood, the waters slowly and naturally abated. Furthermore, Psalm 104:9 makes it clear that this flood was at a time when God set a boundary for the waters "that they turn not again to cover the earth," and that is what happened in the six days' work of Genesis 1:3-2:25. Thus, Psalm 104:5-9 refers to the same flood as Genesis 1:2 and proves the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was overthrown by a flood.

There are SEVERAL contextual clues that Psalm 104 is about the earth being reformed AFTER the Flood during Noach's lifetime.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

14. Turning to the New Testament we find that Jesus taught the fall of Satan from heaven in Luke 10:18. When did he fall? Before Adam's time, because he was already a fallen creature when he came into Adam's Eden (Genesis 3). Why did he fall? Because of pride and wanting to exalt his earthly kingdom above God's (Isaiah 14:12-16; Ezekiel 28:11-17). What was the result of his fall? All of Satan's earthly subjects as well as over one third of God's own angels fell with him (Rev. 12:3,7-12); and all nations were totally destroyed, along with vegetation, fish, fowl, and animals (2 Peter 3:5-7). Thus, Luke 10:18 substantiates the teaching of Old Testament passages regarding a pre-Adamite world.

Why do you keep doing this? Yeshua` was merely saying that He saw haSatan (the Enemy) falling from the sky WHEN HIS DISCIPLES WERE CASTING OUT DEMONS! READ FOR UNDERSTANDING!

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

15. Jesus further taught the overthrow of the pre-Adamite world by plainly stating that the world had been overthrown.

Care to elaborate on where Yeshua` ever said any such thing? No book, chapter, or verse. If you can't show where, then He never said it.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

16. Paul also taught the overthrow of the pre-Adamite world (Ephes. 1:4; Hebrews 4:3; Hebrews 9:26; see notes at these scriptures and the note on Matthew 13:35). In Col. 1:15-18 he made it clear that there are thrones, principalities, and powers in heaven and in earth, visible and invisible. It shouldn't be difficult to believe that Lucifer was given one of these thrones and a kingdom to rule over, before he fell. That his kingdom was on earth in a pre-Adamite period is indicated by the fact that he returned to the earth after his fall and brought about the downfall of the new ruler, Adam. Why all this desire to usurp man's dominion on earth if the earth was not at one time Lucifer's place of rulership? Even his eternal punishment will be in the lake of fire under the earth, which further proves his sin was in connection with the earth-and when else could that have been but at the time of a pre-Adamite world?

No, he did not! Ephesians 1:4 is talking about our predestination, which occurred with God's choice before He began to create.
Hebrews 4:3 is quoting the psalm:

Psalm 95:6-11
6 Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the LORD our Maker; 
7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.

Today, if you hear his voice, 
8 do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, 
as you did that day at Massah in the desert, 
9 where your fathers tested and tried me,
though they had seen what I did. 
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, "They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways." 
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
"They shall never enter my rest." 
NIV

Which, in turn, quotes God in Numbers 14:26-39.

Hebrews 9:26 simply says that Yeshua` the Messiah (the "Christ") would have had to die many times since the six days of Creation, if He had to offer Himself often.

In Matthew 13:35 said that Yeshua` spoke to them in parables to fulfill Psalm 78:2:

Psalm 78:1-3
1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
KJV

Colossians 1:15-18
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV

This passage speaks NOTHING about some world before Creation began! You're just stretching your point.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

17. Contrasting "the world that then was" with the heavens and the earth "which are now" Peter spoke clearly of a social system overthrown before Adam.

No, the "earth that then was" was the earth since Adam until Noach, just as the heavens and the earth "which are now" describes the current earth since Noach until the present.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

18. John also referred to the overthrow of the pre-Adamite world.
It is clear that both the Old Testament and the New Testament give proof of a pre-Adamite world. Scientific findings of prehistoric animals and human beings, the age of the earth, and other facts are consistent with the Biblical revelation of a pre-Adamite social system. There are many questions which cannot be answered apart from a belief in the pre-Adamite age. How did Lucifer become the devil and the prince of demons? When did he weaken the nations, ascend into heaven to exalt his throne above the stars, and fall from heaven as in Isaiah 14:12-14? How did demons originate, for what purpose, and when? What caused the calamity of Genesis 1:2; Jeremiah 4:23-26; Psalm 104:6-9; and 2 Peter 3:5-6? Why was hell prepared for the devil and his angels as stated in Matthew 25:41, and why was it located beneath the earth (Matthew 12:40; Ephes. 4:7-11)? Why was Adam told to "replenish" the earth and not merely to plenish it? These and other questions go unanswered apart from a belief in the pre-Adamite world.

 

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

Hebrew: hayah (OT:1961), became. Translated "became" 67 times (Genesis 2:7; Genesis 19:26; Genesis 20:12; Genesis 24:67; etc.); "becamest" (1 Chron. 17:22; Ezekiel 16:8); "came" and "came to pass" 505 times (Genesis 6:1; Genesis 11:2; Genesis 14:1; etc.); "become" 66 times (Genesis 3:22; Genesis 18:18; Genesis 48:19; etc.); "come to pass" 131 times (Genesis 4:14; Genesis 24:43; Genesis 27:40; etc.); and "be" in the sense of "become" (Genesis 1:3,6,9,14; Genesis 3:5; etc.).

No, Strong's says:

OT:1961 haayaah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

KJV - beacon,  altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall,  follow, happen,  have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require,  use.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

Hebrew: tohuw (OT:8414) wabohuw (OT:922), "waste and empty" (Jeremiah 4:23). The earth wasn't created tohuw in the beginning (Isaiah 45:18), but "became" (see note above) this way because of sin.

No, Strong's says:

OT:8414 tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:

KJV - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

OT:922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:

KJV - emptiness, void.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Isaiah 45:18 says that the earth wasn't created to REMAIN tohuw (a waste; a desert) but was meant to be inhabited.

On 1/23/2017 at 3:51 PM, HAZARD said:

Obscuring the sun and consequent darkness is always a result of judgment, never of creation (Genesis 6-8; Exodus 10:21; Jeremiah 4:23; Joel 2:31; Rev. 6:12; Rev. 8:12; Rev. 9:2; Rev. 16:10).

Really? How would you know? Were you there? Did you watch as God created the earth? Be careful making vague generalities. "Is always?" You can't really say that if it is not true in Genesis 1:2! You're using your interpretation of the verse to support your interpretation of the verse. That's a form of circular reasoning, which is invalid as a logical conclusion.

God SAID in Genesis 1:2 that the earth (what was to be the ground) was a wasteland, a place without form, yet! It wasn't cursed to be that way; it just hadn't been formed, yet!

[Guest Teditis]

11 hours ago, HAZARD said:

They also refuse to believe, and do not believe many parts of the word of God because their eyes have been closed by the devil,  like some I know!

The thing is Hazard, you have been given very many instances of truth in Scripture by many different people

and yet you stick to your interpretation. We have taken the Word of God as written and you twist and tangle

verses just to fit your preconceived notion. It's not we who are blinded, but you.

Genesis 1 clearly shows God creating new things and not recreating. You've failed to demonstrate that there's

any Scripture that shows a Gap Concept in this creation. You have no Scripture to support your theory.

Retrobyter has gone above and beyond the need to show you where you err in Scripture interpretations, others

have shown you basic reading skills and still you persist that you, alone, have special revelation from God... that's

what Mormons do and others that teach false doctrine. They close their eyes to other evidence and go head-long

down a path of their own making and claim that Scripture supports their view... when it just doesn't. You don't

have a special understanding of the Scriptures, what you have is a delusional construct. Something built from an

idea of your own and then bend Scripture to fit your own ideas. I implore you to re-read Genesis again and see that

God is building something totally new and not re-establishing something from old.

Now, I don't mean to be your enemy in all of this... I'm just trying to get a brother to trust in God's Word, as it is written.

I wasn't there when God created everything and don't pretend to KNOW everything about it... I simply read the Bible and

use my education in reading comprehension to discern what is being said. It's clear to me that God created the cosmos in

those first 7 days.

[HAZARD]

4 hours ago, Teditis said:

The thing is Hazard, you have been given very many instances of truth in Scripture by many different people

and yet you stick to your interpretation. We have taken the Word of God as written and you twist and tangle

verses just to fit your preconceived notion. It's not we who are blinded, but you.

Genesis 1 clearly shows God creating new things and not recreating. You've failed to demonstrate that there's

any Scripture that shows a Gap Concept in this creation. You have no Scripture to support your theory.

Retrobyter has gone above and beyond the need to show you where you err in Scripture interpretations, others

have shown you basic reading skills and still you persist that you, alone, have special revelation from God... that's

what Mormons do and others that teach false doctrine. They close their eyes to other evidence and go head-long

down a path of their own making and claim that Scripture supports their view... when it just doesn't. You don't

have a special understanding of the Scriptures, what you have is a delusional construct. Something built from an

idea of your own and then bend Scripture to fit your own ideas. I implore you to re-read Genesis again and see that

God is building something totally new and not re-establishing something from old.

Now, I don't mean to be your enemy in all of this... I'm just trying to get a brother to trust in God's Word, as it is written.

I wasn't there when God created everything and don't pretend to KNOW everything about it... I simply read the Bible and

use my education in reading comprehension to discern what is being said. It's clear to me that God created the cosmos in

those first 7 days.

God created the cosmos in those first 7 days.

In your opinion !

" you alone have a special revelation from God..."

.  

Never once have I said this? BUT, I have quoted hundreds of Scriptures clearly showing God created the heaven and the earth, THEN something happened, Lucifer rebelled and tried to dethrone God, and in His anger God destroyed the earth and all life therein.

The many dozens of likes I have received on this thread shows that I am not the only one here that gets it compared to the very few who do not. Its you who does not understand the full picture.

[HAZARD]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

As I've said before, Hebrew works differently than does English. It's a "Hebraism" to connect all the statements in a discourse with the connective, "v-." The "vav" prefix simply joins the parts of a discourse together into a whole. And, the "vav" prefix, whether it is pronounced "vuh," "vay," or "oo," is usually translated as "and." That's just the whim of the translator, since WHEN it is actually intended to connect nouns or pronouns or verbs or ... whateve, it usually means "and." However, it also works to connect WHOLE THOUGHTS into one discourse!

On the other hand, the first statement in a Hebrew discourse is a summary of what is to follow! That's the way with Jewish literature! Balk at it all you want; your wish does not make it otherwise!

No. You're not being honest.

OT:1961 haayaah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

KJV - beacon,  altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall,  follow, happen,  have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require,  use.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word "haayaah" can mean "to be" as easily as it can mean "to become." You're grasping at straws, hoping your interpretation is correct, when you know good and well that it is NOT! The word IN Genesis 1:2 is "haaytaah."

The same word was used in Genesis 29:17:

Genesis 29:17
17 Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.
KJV

Here, it's a statement of fact, "and Rachel WAS beautiful" (v-Raacheel haaytaah yfaat to'ar), not a condition she had become! How was Ya`aqov (Jacob) to have experienced that she had BECOME beautiful? As far as he knew, she had ALWAYS been beautiful! Thus, here, the word was translated as "WAS" and rightly so!

The word is also used in Genesis 11:30 for Sarai's condition: 

Genesis 11:30
30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child.
KJV

Obviously, she did not "become" barren; she already "WAS" barren.

Again, you're not being honest.

OT:8414 tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:

KJV - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word says NOTHING about how it "came to be" in that condition.

Again, you are SUPPLYING the ASSUMPTION that the earth at the time of Genesis 1:2 was "cursed and flooded because of the sins of Lucifer and the pre-Adamites." This is all SPECULATION on your part as the text never says ANY SUCH THING! Jeremiah 4:23 only SEEMS to have the same time frame as that of Genesis 1:2 because of a similar phrase, "tohuw v-Vohuw"; however, they are NOT talking about the same events AT ALL! 

YirmeYahuw (a.k.a. Jeremiah) is talking about the desvastation of Israel after the armies of Nebuchadnezzar went through the Land, pillaging and plundering and burning and killing and taking captives. What they left behind of the Land was "tohuw v-Vohuw!" The Land of Israel was left a wasteland and void of life! Read Jeremiah 4:23-26 WITHIN THEIR CONTEXT!

When you said, "The earth was created to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18)," you're right. The earth INDEED was meant to be populated by animals and people. However, when you added, "and was inhabited before the flood of Genesis 1:2 and the work of the six days of Adam's time (Genesis 1:3-2:25; Isaiah 14:12-14; Jeremiah 4:23-26; Ezekiel 28:11-17; 2 Peter 3:5-7)," you've added UNPROVEN CONJECTURE! NONE of these verses prove that conjecture! Neither Isaiah 14:12-14 nor Ezekiel 28:11-17 are talking about some character named "Lucifer" but were prophecies against the king of Babylon and the king of Tyre, respectively. Jeremiah 4:23-26 is talking about the aftermath of the attack by Babylon on Judah. And, 2 Peter 3:5-7 is about NOACH'S Flood! 

Noach's (Noah's) Flood was neither a local flood nor was it a tranquil flood. It was a GLOBAL KILLER, and it was accompanied by the "fountains of the great deep being broken up." Look, water seeks its own level and this water inundated the earth until the highest mountain (at the time before the Flood) was covered (at least) 15 cubits (22.5 feet, the draft or draught of the arc's hull)! Everyone knows that it "rained for forty days and forty nights," but what they do NOT realize is that this Flood lasted for OVER A YEAR before it subsided to current ocean levels!

Furthermore, the weight of the water, the water pressure of the height of this water, was high enough to cause the valleys between mountains to sink, pushing the mountains higher due to the see-saw effect on the plastic nature of the earth's crust. When one looks at the mountain ranges on a land mass, one will discover that the mountains will generally follow the coastlines, several miles away, mind you, but following the coasts. The Rocky Mountains follow the Pacific coastline, all the way down into South America, btw. The Appalachians follow the Atlantic coastline. Even the great Himalayans are snapped up from the Indian ocean surrounding the area of the Indian peninsula.

Thermal conditions were greatly disrupted, as well. Volcanism went with the techtonic shifts, and with the volcanism, great ash clouds covered much of the jet streams' paths in both the northern and the southern hemispheres of the earth. This caused a rapidly-beginning ice age that lasted a few hundred years after the Flood. Mammoths in the tundras of Russia were frozen in blocks of ice with fresh buttercups still in their mouths and bellies, flash frozen such that the meat of the mammoths and the vegetation was still fresh!

No, the catastrophe called "the Flood" was not even close to being "tranquil!"

You're neglecting the most important part of Genesis 1:10:

That's when the "dry land" was CALLED "EARTH!" (Hebrew: ERETS!) There was NO "earth" before verse 10!

Psalm 136:1-9
1 Give thanks to Adonai, for he is good,
for his grace continues forever. 
2 Give thanks to the God of gods,
for his grace continues forever. 
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords,
for his grace continues forever; 

4 to him who alone has done great wonders,
for his grace continues forever; 
5 to him who skillfully made the heavens, (hashaamayim, Gen. 1:6-8)
for his grace continues forever; 
6 to him who spread out the earth (haa'aarets) on the water, (Gen. 1:9-10)
for his grace continues forever; 
7 to him who made the great lights, (owriym gdoliym, Gen. 1:16)
for his grace continues forever; 
8 the sun (hashemesh) to rule the day, (Gen. 1:16b)
for his grace continues forever; 
9 the moon and stars (hayaareeach vkowkhaaViym) to rule the night, (Gen. 1:16c)
for his grace continues forever; 
CJB

This passage proves nothing of the sort:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
1 “Isra’el, if you will return,” says Adonai,
“yes, return to me; and if you will banish
your abominations from my presence
without wandering astray again;
2 and if you will swear, ‘As Adonai lives,’
in truth, justice and righteousness;
then the nations will bless themselves by him,
and in him will they glory.”

3 For here is what Adonai says
to the people of Y’hudah (Judah) and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem):
“Break up your ground that hasn’t been plowed,
and do not sow among thorns.”

4 “People of Y’hudah (Judah) and inhabitants of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem),
circumcise yourselves for Adonai,
remove the foreskins of your heart!
Otherwise my fury will lash out like fire,
burning so hot that no one can quench it,
because of how evil your actions are. 

5 “Announce in Y’hudah (Judah), proclaim in Yerushalayim (Jerusalem);
say: ‘Blow the shofar in the land!’
Shout the message aloud: ‘Assemble!
Let us go to the fortified cities!’
6 Set up a signal toward Tziyon (Zion),
head for cover without delay.
For I will bring disaster from the north,
yes, dire destruction.
7 A lion has risen from his lair,
a destroyer of nations has set out,
left his own place to ruin your land,
to demolish and depopulate your cities.” 

8 So wrap yourselves in sackcloth,
lament and wail, for Adonai’s fierce anger
has not turned away from us. 

9 “When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“the king’s heart will fail him,
likewise the princes’;
the cohanim (priests) will be appalled
and the prophets stupefied.” 

10 Then I said, “Oh, Adonai Elohim! Surely you have sadly deceived this people and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) by saying, ‘You will have peace,’ when the sword is at our very throats!”

11 “At that time it will be said
of this people and of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem):
‘A scorching wind from the desert heights
is sweeping down on my people.’
It is not coming to winnow or cleanse;
12 this wind of mine is too strong for that.
Now I will pass sentence on them.” 

13 Here he comes, like the clouds,
his chariots like the whirlwind,
his horses faster than eagles!
Woe to us, we are doomed!
14 Wash the evil from your heart, Yerushalayim (Jerusalem),
so that you can be saved.
How long will you harbor within yourselves
your evil thoughts?
15 For a voice is announcing the news from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Efrayim (Ephraim): 

16 “Report it to the nations,
proclaim about Yerushalayim (Jerusalem):
‘[Enemies] are coming from a distant country,
watching and shouting their war cry
against the cities of Y’hudah (Judah).’
17 Like guards in a field they surround her,
because she has rebelled against me,” says Adonai.
18 “Your own ways and your actions
have brought these things on yourselves.
This is your wickedness, so bitter!
It has reached your very heart.” 

19 My guts! My guts! I’m writhing in pain!
My heart! It beats wildly — I can’t stay still! —
because I have heard the shofar sound;
it’s the call to war.
20 The news is disaster after disaster!
All the land is ruined!
My tents are suddenly destroyed,
my tent curtains in an instant.
21 How long must I see that signal
and hear the shofar sound?

22 “It is because my people are foolish —
they do not know me; they are stupid children,
without understanding, wise when doing evil;
but they don’t know how to do good.” 

23 I looked at the land — it was unformed and void —
and at the sky — it had no light.
24 I looked at the mountains, and they shook —
all the hills moved back and forth (shimmered).
25 I looked, and there was no human being;
all the birds in the air had fled.
26 I looked, and the fertile fields were a desert,
all the land’s cities were razed to the ground
at the presence of Adonai,
before his burning anger. 

27 For here is what Adonai says:

“The whole land will be desolate
(although I will not destroy it completely).
28 Because of this, the land will mourn
and the sky above be black;
for I have spoken, I have decided,
I will not change my mind, I will not turn back.” 

29 At the noise of the horsemen and archers,
the entire city flees —
some plunge into thickets; others climb rocks;
all cities are deserted; no one lives there.
30 And you, who are doomed to be plundered,
what do you mean by putting on crimson,
decking yourselves with jewels and gold,
enlarging your eyes with eye make-up?
You beautify yourself in vain —
your lovers despise you, they seek your life!
31 For I have heard a sound like a woman in labor,
in anguish giving birth to her first child.
It is the sound of the daughter of Tziyon (Zion)
gasping for breath as she spreads her hands:
“Woe to me! Everything in me
is so weary before the killers.” 
CJB

Genesis 1:2 simply shows that the planet, still unformed, was covered with water and sat in darkness.

No, the introduction of the Creation account in verse 1 shows us that 6,000 years ago, it WAS "the beginning" when God started to create the skies, including "the greater light" (which Psalm 136:8 recognized as "the sun"), "the lesser light" (which Psalm 136:9 recognized as "the moon") and "the stars."

Yes, within these six days of Creation, God DID create the "dry land" which He named "the earth."

Of course, it wasn't a "cosmic accident!" God, a personal and an eternal Being, DID create "the heavens" (hashaamayim) on Day 2 (Gen. 1:6-8) and He DID create "the earth" (haa'aarets) on Day 3 (Gen. 1:9-13).

No, God was telling Iyov (Job) that this was about the Flood of water on the earth during Noach's lifetime.

Yes, both the skies and the ground were created before the ground was flooded during Noach's lifetime.

The ground was not even visible yet in Genesis 1:1 and was not so UNTIL Genesis 1:10. Regardless, the earth or the ground was indeed meant to be inhabited when it did become visible in Genesis 1:10.

The waters as they existed BEFORE God started His creative acts were NOT a "curse"; Genesis 1:2 merely describes the state of the planet BEFORE God started creating.

No, Job 38:4-41 are talking about the reforming of the earth AFTER the Flood of Noach's lifetime.

The ground was NOT "cursed" in Genesis 1:2. It was merely unformed before God began His creative works.

YOU may make such conclusions, but they are UNFOUNDED ON FACT! There was no "pre-Adamite world" (other than for the first 5 days).

God's WIND was moving upon the flooded earth, as He was PREPARING to begin His creative acts. It confirms NOTHING about some fictitious "pre-Adamite world" which supposedly was destroyed and restored.

There was no "universal flood" nor was there "judgment" in Genesis 1:2. It's just a verse describing this planet BEFORE God began His creative works to produce a biosphere habitable by human beings as well as the plants and animals.

God's command to Adam was to FILL the earth (for the first time). God didn't need "do-overs." And, yes, God gave the same command to Noach because they were to FILL the earth (for the first time in the SECOND age after the Flood). And, keep the deep discussions of the Bible to the original languages, such as Hebrew in the OT. English doesn't have the answers.

There IS NO SUCH "FACT!" Instead, we read that the SERPENT was later called "the devil" ("the slanderer") and "haSatan" (Hebrew for "the Enemy" in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2.

No, you're reading a prophecy against the king of Babylon and misinterpreting what was said!

No, you're reading a prophecy against the king of Tyre and misinterpreting what was said!

This is just sheer nonsense. You're not reading the prophecy of YirmeYahuw for understanding. You're not letting the Scriptures speak to you (exegesis). You're FORCING your own interpretation upon the Scriptures (eisegesis), which is TOTALLY against good biblical interpretation.

There are SEVERAL contextual clues that Psalm 104 is about the earth being reformed AFTER the Flood during Noach's lifetime.

Why do you keep doing this? Yeshua` was merely saying that He saw haSatan (the Enemy) falling from the sky WHEN HIS DISCIPLES WERE CASTING OUT DEMONS! READ FOR UNDERSTANDING!

Care to elaborate on where Yeshua` ever said any such thing? No book, chapter, or verse. If you can't show where, then He never said it.

No, he did not! Ephesians 1:4 is talking about our predestination, which occurred with God's choice before He began to create.
Hebrews 4:3 is quoting the psalm:

Psalm 95:6-11
6 Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the LORD our Maker; 
7 for he is our God
and we are the people of his pasture,
the flock under his care.

Today, if you hear his voice, 
8 do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah, 
as you did that day at Massah in the desert, 
9 where your fathers tested and tried me,
though they had seen what I did. 
10 For forty years I was angry with that generation;
I said, "They are a people whose hearts go astray,
and they have not known my ways." 
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
"They shall never enter my rest." 
NIV

Which, in turn, quotes God in Numbers 14:26-39.

Hebrews 9:26 simply says that Yeshua` the Messiah (the "Christ") would have had to die many times since the six days of Creation, if He had to offer Himself often.

In Matthew 13:35 said that Yeshua` spoke to them in parables to fulfill Psalm 78:2:

Psalm 78:1-3
1 Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
KJV

Colossians 1:15-18
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV

This passage speaks NOTHING about some world before Creation began! You're just stretching your point.

No, the "earth that then was" was the earth since Adam until Noach, just as the heavens and the earth "which are now" describes the current earth since Noach until the present.

 

No, Strong's says:

OT:1961 haayaah (haw-yaw); a primitive root [compare OT:1933]; to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):

KJV - beacon,  altogether, be (-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall,  follow, happen,  have, last, pertain, quit (oneself-), require,  use.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

No, Strong's says:

OT:8414 tohuw (to'-hoo); from an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (of surface), i.e. desert; figuratively, a worthless thing; adverbially, in vain:

KJV - confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of) nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness.

OT:922 bohuw (bo'-hoo); from an unused root (meaning to be empty); a vacuity, i.e. (superficially) an undistinguishable ruin:

KJV - emptiness, void.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Isaiah 45:18 says that the earth wasn't created to REMAIN tohuw (a waste; a desert) but was meant to be inhabited.

Really? How would you know? Were you there? Did you watch as God created the earth? Be careful making vague generalities. "Is always?" You can't really say that if it is not true in Genesis 1:2! You're using your interpretation of the verse to support your interpretation of the verse. That's a form of circular reasoning, which is invalid as a logical conclusion.

God SAID in Genesis 1:2 that the earth (what was to be the ground) was a wasteland, a place without form, yet! It wasn't cursed to be that way; it just hadn't been formed, yet!

The earth, "THAT WAS TO BE GROUND," ?

You mean to tell me, and expect me to believe that God created the earth in Gen 1:1, that you say, "THAT WAS TO BE GROUND," was not actually ground until it was made ground in Gen. 1:6, ???????

That's the most pathetic form of reasoning I have ever read. God does no create a wasteland, without form, covered with water and in darkness, then fix it?????

Every thing God creates He creates perfectly, every time the Earth was flooded it was because of sin and rebellion. Its you also who does not get it.

Its you who should "Be careful of making vague generalities."

[Guest Teditis]

See, now, you're just assuming that the earth covered with water and darkness... void and empty wasn't PERFECT.

God may have wanted a palette and blank canvas so as to demonstrate to us His Creative ways.

Regardless... you are assuming.

[HAZARD]

47 minutes ago, Teditis said:

See, now, you're just assuming that the earth covered with water and darkness... void and empty wasn't PERFECT.

God may have wanted a palette and blank canvas so as to demonstrate to us His Creative ways.

Regardless... you are assuming.

I'm not assuming anything? Your understanding of Gen. 1:1 is flawed.

I believe what I read, In the beginning, (meaning, some time in the dateless past), God created the heaven and the earth, not 6,000 years ago.  God never created a palette and blank canvas so as to demonstrate to us His Creative ways.

Just as, "In the beginning was the Word," John 1:1.  Was that 6,000 years ago as well?