Who is this Jewish Messiah?

[Zach]

15 minutes ago, SisterActs2 said:

Hi Zach

I believe Ephesians 2:8,9.  "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."  The works follow salvation.  I don't think making a decision for Christ could be called a "work".  It is a decision.  It is a choice.  Works are things that we do that mark us as Christians.  They are the fruit of being a Christian.

 

Hello SisterActs2,

I agree, we are saved BECAUSE of the unmerited favor of God, a result of His nature, not ours. We were lost and without instructions (Torah) and were going to die without Him unless He reached out to us, forgiving our past sin, inviting us, allowing us to participate in a covenant relationship with Him. This is the "salvation", not a magic wand waved over us and we're good to go for all eternity regardless of our participation in the offered relationship.

Allow me to ask you; Why would God give instructions if we didn't need them to appropriate our salvation?

[SisterActs2]

Hi Zach - all respect to you.  We agree.  However with regard to your question: I don't really understand what you mean.  God gives us instructions on lots of things.  We do need to appropriate our salvation, and I believe we do this by obedience.  We need to obey His commands, among which are to pray, worship, love our brethren (above all God), fellowship, take communion - all the things He asks us to do which we all know which I guess are works.  I believe we develop relationship with Jesus by spending time with Him.  All these things mean we are appropriating our salvation, don't they? Taking hold of, running the race, standing up for Him.  I hope I understood you correctly.  God bless brother.  I do not have a very broad education in Judaism.  I am learning some things through the Worthy briefs though.

[Zach]

SisterActs2,thank you so much for your kind thoughtful response. To explain I have to go back a bit to set  some context, don't worry it will be short and painless, lol. Our New Testament has been Hellenized (affected by Greek philosophy) and by antisemitic Church fathers. Even today we see it in our English Bibles which use the word "Law" in a pejorative sense rather than what Psalm 119 describes. The Hebrew for "Law" is the word 'Torah' which is better translated as "Instructions". God gave us instructions on how to live because he loves us, not to set us up to fail as as some here would have you believe.

"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach." Deuteronomy 30:11

 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome." 1John 5:3.

Yeshua told us as plain as can be said in Matthew 5:17-21 the Instructions haven't changed and identifies these instructions as the instructions (Law or Torah) of the Old Testament. Some here will tell you in contradiction to the words of Yeshua they've been "nailed to the cross" however it wasn't the instructions that were nailed to the cross but rather the penalty for not believing and putting into practice the instructions that was nailed to the cross. Why would God take away the instructions He gave us because He loves us?

 

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Zach said:

 shilo357, what is the all consuming focus on "salvation"? Aren't we supposed to Love God with all our Heart, Mind and Soul and Love our fellow man regardless of wht we get out of it?

The focus of salvation is Jesus.   He is Salvation.   God isn't interested in us performing well enough for Him.  You couldn't possibly do that, anyway.   The focus of salvation is God's desire to restore the relationship that was broken in the Garden of Eden.  The focus or main message of salvation is that God loves each of us and doesn't want to spend eternity parted from us.   He sent His Son Jesus/Yeshua to pay for our sin through His death on the cross.   He satisfied God's justice and paid the penalty for sin (death) on our behalf.   Jesus' death bore away everything it takes to send a man to Hell.  He now offers salvation as a free gift to anyone willing to accept Him as their Savior.   

Loving God with all of our heart, soul and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves is the outworking of our salvation.  I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.  The works we do, that we were created for, are the result of His working in us and through us.   He empowers us to obey and it is through that inner work of the Holy Spirit that any work we do for Him, every act of obedience is acceptable in His sight.

Quote

 Everything is so convuluted nowadays, right is wrong and wrong is right. If someone keeps the instructions (Torah) of God and teaches others they are accused of teaching another Gospel, teaching Heresy and persecuted by the Church for living the religion of Yeshua rather than a religion about Yeshua. 

We  still keep the instructions of the Torah.  You can't define love in the New Testament without the Torah.   What I am saying is that Torah observance has nothing to do with how we are saved, or how our salvation is maintained.  I don't keep the Torah in order to hold on to salvation.   If that was the case, then Jesus' death on the cross is nullified and pointless.    My faith and focus needs to be on Jesus and on Him alone. 

[Zach]

8 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

My faith and focus needs to be on Jesus and on Him alone. 

That's not what Yeshua taught.

[Guest shiloh357]

18 minutes ago, Zach said:

That's not what Yeshua taught.

The entire focus of Scripture is on Jesus.   Jesus is the focal point of all of biblical history.   The entire spectrum of history pivots on the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.  Torah and the prophets all point forward toward Jesus.  The epistles of Paul point back to finished work of Jesus on the cross. 

Everything in the Bible ultimately focuses on Jesus.  And even Jesus pointed men to Himself as the source of their salvation.

We live in a world that tries to tell us the opposite, that has people, even many Christians distracted by unhealthy obsessions with angels or Bible codes, and alleged "mysteries" of the Bible and all kinds of stuff.    Anything that takes your eyes off of Jesus isn't from God.

[Zach]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Anything that takes your eyes off of Jesus isn't from God.

Yeshua consistently pointed to the Father. Anything that takes your eyes off the Father is an idol. It is the most subtle and cruelest of lies to make Yeshua an idol.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Zach said:

Yeshua consistently pointed to the Father. Anything that takes your eyes off the Father is an idol. It is the most subtle and cruelest of lies to make Yeshua an idol.

Jesus did point to the Father, but the Father is always pointing to Jesus.   And that makes sense because Jesus is as much God as the Father.  

Jesus pointed to Himself as the only way to the Father.   He pointed to Himself when he told us in John 5:24 that believing on Him who the Father had sent is the way to eternal life.   Jesus said that those who believe Him would have rivers of living water flowing from their innermost being.    Jesus was constantly pointing to Himself as the Son of Man and Son of God.  Jesus proclaimed Himself the Savior of the Word.

[Zach]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus proclaimed Himself the Savior of the Word.

I don't recall Yeshua ever directly saying anything like that. You mind helping me out here?

Edited December 31, 2016 by Zach

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Zach said:

I don't recall Yeshua ever saying directly saying anything like that. You mind helping me out here?

John 3:16-17  John 12:32

In addition, salvation from sin is always couched in universal terms in the Bible.     Paul, in Rom. 5:12-21 presents sin as a universal problem for mankind and he presents Jesus as the Last Adam as the universal remedy/cure for the problem of sin.  The salvation Jesus offers is as comprehensive as the problem and curse of sin.