Jared Kushner

[missmuffet]

8 hours ago, Out of the Shadows said:

 

Your own post proves my point.  According to the church will not be here when the AC is revealed, but there are other schools of thought that have just as much biblical support.  That is why this has been debated for 2000 years and will be till the day that Jesus returns...then we will all know.  Till that day everything is just a guess, might be an educated guess, but a guess none the less.

I guess time will tell won't it?

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Then you are post tribulation. The Bible tells me that we will not because I am pre tribulation.

You do realize what you are saying, don't you? You are saying that because you believe a certain way, the bible confirms that idea.  This is wrong. No prophecy is a personal take on a favorite bias. There is only one right answer to each and every prophecy and it does not rely on an individuals personal beliefs. 

I am not 'post tribulation' because that's what my personal feeling are and I just say the bible teaches 'post tribulation'. The evidence in scripture for what I speak is overwhelming and therefore truth. 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Hello brother, been under the weather Sugar up, blood pressure up, feeling better now. I have found out if I post under those conditions I usually an rather short, so I just wait a while.

The Beast/Little Horn does arise out of Daniel 8, but he also arises out of Daniel 7. I think Daniel 11 is pretty much the whole history of Greece's interactions with Israel, even them conquering Persia who was over Israel at the time.(Greece dissolved and was divided at this point.) It is however rather convoluted and many people disagree on when the Anti-Christ shows up in Daniel 11, some say he shows up in verse 20 or 21 and some say he shows up in verse 36. The whole chapter is deep and powerful, but there are so many kings spoken of its hard to tell where that 2200 year leap In time is taken from 150 BC or less to today or a few years in the future. Daniel 11 does advance the story, but Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 tells us where this Man is born and where he arises.(I don't see any of this.) The JUMP FORWARD 2200 years in Daniel 11 takes on a totally different context. There is no link showing where/what group this Little Horn arises from in Daniel 11, wherever that 2200 year jump in time happens at, there is no info saying he arises from this branch of the Four Kingdoms.(Actually there is. We know that Antiochus IV placed the A of D. We know that Antiochus IV is in the lineage of the Seleucid Kings. Dan 11 follows this narrative all the way to the willful king who first appears in Dan 11:21. While it looks as though lineage is important it's more important to understand the geography. From the head of gold in the Dan 2 statue to the willful king in Dan 11:36, all these kings ruled the same region in and around Babylon. This is the key more than bloodline.) That info is in Daniel chapter 7 and in Daniel chapter 8. It is explained to us very clearly, chapter 11 is vague, but pretty understandable, bit exactly when the Anti-Christ comes in to the picture is debatable, and there is no understanding via chapter 11 what branch of the Grecian's four Generals he comes forth from. Din't mean to go that long, but your line of thought is interesting.  I had to go reread Daniel 11. Smile. (But there is. Dan 8 demands the beast comes from one of the four notable generals. We have four choices: Egypt, Asia Minor, Greece and the Seleucid Empire. Dan 11 clears the water when the narrative follows the kings of the Seleucid Empire. On this there is no doubt.)

I am more hip on this, so it should be brief, but no promises. LOL.... Daniel 7:7 Rome Beast....2000 Year Leap.....Daniel 7:8 Little Horn arises with 10 Kings. Daniel 7:23 Rome Beast....2000 Year Leap.....Daniel 7:24 the Little Horn/Anti-Christ/Beast Arises. (Again, Rome has no part in these prophecies.)

Daniel is being shown the Four Beasts, which conquered Israel, the Fourth Beast is different from the other three because of the Pax-Romanus, without which the Gospel may not have ever got off the ground, seeing as the Jews wanted to bury this new Religion of Jesus Christ, the Savior. All roads lead to Rome, made traveling between countries very easy for all who were subjects of Rome, and the Romans used Koine Greek, (why the bible was written in Greek and not Hebrew) throughout the kingdom as a quasi "Official Language". Also, Rome allowed all manner of locals to worship their own gods,(No difference. Nebuchadnezzar, Darius and Alexander also allowed religious freedom, as well as economic and educational freedoms. Other similarities between the three empires are civil government and loose morality. ISIS, radical Islam, is the exact opposite of this as ISIS is a theocracy and morally stringent with severe penalties for blasphemy, heretics, adultery, homosexuality, theft, and is misogynist and brutal.) as long as it didn't lead to revolt, thus, the Fourth Beast was far different than the other three Beasts before it, and was built to last, they also had the most organized armies of all of the Beasts. THEY WERE DIFFERENT.(The difference is explained in Dan 7; "which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;", "which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces." This is the difference. The Babylonian, Persian, and Grecian empires preserved as much as possible and so did Rome. The coming empire will preserve nothing and destroy everything, just like ISIS is doing now and Islam did for 1400 years in it's previous incarnation.)

They key to unraveling this is verse 23 and 24. V.23 says the fourth beast was diverse from all the others. V.24 says the Little Horn was DIFFERENT FROM THE FIRST................This means the Little Horn was different from the First (Fourth Beast/ out of Europe).(The actual quote, " And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings." shows the difference is between the little horn and the ten previous kings represented by the ten horns, not the first three statue empires, Much less Rome as Rome has nothing to do with the beast or the final beast kingdom. We know this is what is meant because the ten horns existed, then the little horn arose after, so the 'first' are the ten previous, or existing, kings.) Thinking this through, you understand these two have to be different. V.23 says the Fourth Beast (Rome) is different fro  ALL THE OTHER 3 Beasts. V.24 Says the Little Horn is ONLY DIFFERENT FROM THE First (Beast of Rome)(The difference is between the little horn and the ten horns...). If these two were the same, then both verses would say they are different from ALL THE BEASTS Before it. 

You have Rome, the Fourth Beast(An untenable contention as no fact supports this idea. I can offer several refutations as to why Rome cannot be considered as part of the prophecies of the beast and the east kingdom. Chief among the refutations is the fact Rev was given to John in 90 AD, not 68 AD. This means Nero cannot be 'one is', and the previous 5 cannot be Roman emperors.).............................................Then the Little Horn arises 2000 years or so later, out of the same Footprint/European Union/Revived Rome. Isis will be destroyed by the Anti-Christ, this whole Muslim angle is just not scriptural to me,(And yet it's far more scriptural than forcing Rome into prophecy when there is no factual support.) they will be subjugated, their Religion wiped out (Judgment of the Harlot), then they will be enticed by the False Prophet, Dragon and Anti-Christ/Beast to come against Israel, at the 6th Vial. (Kings of the East). 

 

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, missmuffet said:

So you are the only one who has it right? And you say that the Church will be in the Tribulation?

I am not 'right'. God's word is correct. Being 'right' in this case means allowing God's word to shape us, to give our voice the truth, and our minds peace, and our hearts hope and belief. This has nothing to do with my feelings. I am greatly concerned with the nature of the coming crisis and I personally wish I was wrong. But the facts are solid and the conclusion inescapable; the church will enter the 70th week for the purpose of purification. The beast is the 'fiery testing' refining the church in to gold worthy of the kingdom of heaven and our hope is in the return of Jesus and our redemption. 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The 70th week of Daniel pertains to Israel not the church. And there will be beleivers during the Tribulation.  But tribulation believers are not part of the "Church."  

No, there will be sinners who are saved during the Tribulation.  That's the martyrs in chapter 7.

Wrong.  The Church will not be here.  There will be believers who get saved during the Trib and who will be persecuted by AC and the false prophet.

There are several problems with the logic in this position. Perhaps you can address this one bit where none have been willing. The problem with the logic of Pretrib in this area follows:

If, as PreTrib states, the whole of the 70th week is the Wrath of God, and if, as PreTrib states, believers are not appointed to wrath, then how is it that Pre Trib places believers in the very wrath to which believers are not appointed?

And there is this: How are sinners saved? No one left to preach. Holy Spirit is gone according to PreTrib. Are you saying that sinners turn sans the hearing of the word and sans the conviction of the Spirit?  And believers and sinners have been separated at the onset of the 70th week, according to PreTrib, so what is the need for the beast? Whom does he persecute? There can be no believers during the first 3.5 years of the 70th week, before the A of D, before the mark is instituted and the edict to worship the statue, as PreTrib states the first 3.5 years is the wrath of God, where no believers in Jesus can exist.

 

[Diaste]

On 1/13/2017 at 6:45 AM, Out of the Shadows said:

And according to the Jewish understanding of the Bible, Jesus in no way qualifies to be the messiah.  You put way too much faith in your ability to decipher prophecy. 

Not true. There are many Israelis, Jew and otherwise, that see Jesus as Lord. If I can see Jesus in the Torah, so can any of the Jewish nation. Maybe the religious leaders cannot see Jesus as Lord, but religious leaders are infamously manipulative and arrogant so that's not much of a surprise, but the hearts of the people can seek and find Christ, and many do.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

There are several problems with the logic in this position. Perhaps you can address this one bit where none have been willing. The problem with the logic of Pretrib in this area follows:

If, as PreTrib states, the whole of the 70th week is the Wrath of God, and if, as PreTrib states, believers are not appointed to wrath, then how is it that Pre Trib places believers in the very wrath to which believers are not appointed?

The Pre-Trib view is not that the whole 70th week is the wrath of God.   First half is the wrath of the AC.  The 2nd half is God's wrath. And most of the book of Revelation is really about that 2nd half, the wrath of God.

The Church is  not appointed to GOD'S wrath, to be judged by God during the Tribulation.  We have already been judged.  But that will not save Tribulation saints who got saved, post-rapture from undergoing the wrath of the AC.   Many Tribulation believers will die at the hands of the AC.   And many will survive and enter into the Millennium.  God will preserve believers during His wrath, I believe, just as God will preserve Israel from the AC.

Quote

And there is this: How are sinners saved? No one left to preach. Holy Spirit is gone according to PreTrib. Are you saying that sinners turn sans the hearing of the word and sans the conviction of the Spirit?  

If you study the book of Revelation, there is all kinds of preaching going on.   And who said the Holy Spirit is not on the earth during the Tribulation?

Quote

And believers and sinners have been separated at the onset of the 70th week, according to PreTrib, so what is the need for the beast? Whom does he persecute? There can be no believers during the first 3.5 years of the 70th week, before the A of D, before the mark is instituted and the edict to worship the statue, as PreTrib states the first 3.5 years is the wrath of God, where no believers in Jesus can exist.

That line of argumentation is based on a faulty premise that requires the church to be in the Tribulation for their to be believers during the first 3 1/2 years.    The first 3 1/2 years is the wrath of the AC not the wrath of God.

[Revelation Man]

6 hours ago, Diaste said:

(Actually there is. We know that Antiochus IV placed the A of D. We know that Antiochus IV is in the lineage of the Seleucid Kings. Dan 11 follows this narrative all the way to the willful king who first appears in Dan 11:21. While it looks as though lineage is important it's more important to understand the geography. From the head of gold in the Dan 2 statue to the willful king in Dan 11:36, all these kings ruled the same region in and around Babylon. This is the key more than bloodline.)

I can actually prove via the scriptures that the Abomination of Desolation is an end times event, not anything that Antiochus 4 did. 

Daniel 11:45 and Daniel 12:1-2, Matthew 24:14-22 and Revelation chapter 12. the Woman/Dragon/Man-child.  This is so easy to discern I kind of wonder why we have so many that yet remain 70 AD advocates of the AOD.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

{{ As we can see, Dan. 11:45 is the Abomination of Desolation, and Michael Stands up, (just like in Rev. 12) and there is a Time of Trouble like never before (Matthew 24) and look what happens at the time, The Rapture, men awake to everlasting life, or everlasting contempt (death). Lets see if Matthews 24 has any clues. }}

Matthew 24:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

{{ We have a lot of clues here, first the Gospel has to be preached unto all the world, then the end will come, in the very next verse Jesus speaks about the AoD. Then he quotes Daniel, and just like Daniel Jesus refers to the "Time of Trouble, like never before" that will be happening at this time, then verse 22 is the BIGGEST CLUE....Except those days should be shortened, there would no Flesh Be Saved !!!  Then from Matthew 24:23-31 Jesus speaks about his coming in the Eastern Skies, Immediately after the "Tribulation". I really have no clue how anyone could see this Abomination of Desolation as being anything other than an END TIME EVENT. }}

Then we all know about Rev. 12, the Woman (Israel) the Dragon (Satan) and the Baby/Man-child/Jesus that ascends to Heaven. But lets see how this correlates with Daniel 12, is it the same time-frame ? 

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

{{ So Israel (Woman) flees into the Wilderness where God protects her for 1260 Days, the exact time that the Anti-Christ is given power to overcome the Saints (Conquer/tread down Jerusalem). This happens when Michael casts Satan out of Heaven (Michael Stands Up). All three of these passages MATCH UP PERFECTLY. The Abomination of Desolation is an End Time Event. }}

[missmuffet]

Question: "What is the abomination of desolation?"

Answer: The phrase “abomination of desolation” refers to Matthew 24:15 (KJV): “So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand.” This is referring to Daniel 9:27, “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” In 167 B.C. a Greek ruler by the name of Antiochus Epiphanies set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. He also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem. This event is known as the abomination of desolation.

In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was speaking some 200 years after the abomination of desolation described above had already occurred. So, Jesus must have been prophesying that some time in the future another abomination of desolation would occur in a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. Most Bible prophecy interpreters believe that Jesus was referring to the Antichrist who will do something very similar to what Antiochus Epiphanies did. This is confirmed by the fact that some of what Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:27 did not occur in 167 B.C. with Antiochus Epiphanies. Antiochus did not confirm a covenant with Israel for seven years. It is the Antichrist who, in the end times, will establish a covenant with Israel for seven years and then break it by doing something similar to the abomination of desolation in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

Whatever the future abomination of desolation is, it will leave no doubt in anyone’s mind that the one perpetrating it is the person known as the Antichrist. Revelation 13:14 describes him making some kind of image which all are forced to worship. Turning the temple of the living God into a place of worship for the Antichrist is truly an “abomination.” Those who are alive and remain during the tribulation should be watchful and recognize that this event is the beginning of 3 1/2 years of the worst of the tribulation period and that the return of the Lord Jesus is imminent. “Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man” (Luke 21:36).

https://www.gotquestions.org/abomination-desolation.html

[Revelation Man]

5 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The Pre-Trib view is not that the whole 70th week is the wrath of God.   First half is the wrath of the AC.  The 2nd half is God's wrath. And most of the book of Revelation is really about that 2nd half, the wrath of God.

The Church is  not appointed to GOD'S wrath, to be judged by God during the Tribulation.  We have already been judged.  But that will not save Tribulation saints who got saved, post-rapture from undergoing the wrath of the AC.   Many Tribulation believers will die at the hands of the AC.   And many will survive and enter into the Millennium.  God will preserve believers during His wrath, I believe, just as God will preserve Israel from the AC.

I agree with all this, except for one thing, the Anti-Christ only breaks his Security Agreement/Peace Deal at the midway (3 1/2 years) mark, so where does the thought process of the wrath being the Anti-Christs for the first 3 1/2  years come from ? I realize everyone says this, but rational thinking suggests that the Anti-Christs conquering starts at the 3 1/2 year mark. I actually think you are correct, the last 3 1/2 years are Gods Wrath, Him allowing the Anti-Christ to come forth is the Lambs Wrath. (Seals) the the Trumpets are the Holy Spirits Wrath ( Prayers of the Saints/Two-Witnesses) come before Gods throne, an Angel then casts a ball of fire mixed with those prayers towards the earth, and the calamities of the Seven Trumps come forth. We know the Two Witnesses have the power to pray down plagues and stop the Rains.....I think this is the Holy Spirits Wrath, he is our Comforter. Then the Vials are Gods Wrath, as we all know.