The Abomination of Desolation

[Sister]

58 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Again, you form your doctrine without consulting what is written! Where can we find when the abomination will come, in relation to the 70th week?

Of course, we find that in Daniel. But I already see a problem, because you don't believe Daniel when he tells us it is a WEEK (7)

Well, I will show you anyway:

9:27 NIV

In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him

WHEN? When does Daniel tell us? Did he say the end of 3 1/2 years? No, Daniel is clear, the abomination comes IN THE MIDDLE of the seven.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

Do you get it now? The man of sin will enter the holy of holies in the new temple and declare he is GOD. This is an abomination! The daily sacrifices will cease at this moment.  And this happens in the MIDST of the week. The Hebrew word there for MIDST means to divide in half.

Now I know your preconceptions are very strong. Did I break through? Do you believe what Daniel wrote?
 

 

iamlamad. 

No you did not break through.  You are misinterpreting Daniel 9.  The "he" who confirms the covenant is Christ.  Christ was "cut off" in the midst of the week (crucified). ...from there, you go out.  Desolations will continue until the consummation (the coming)  Desolations are abominations, not just made by the FP, but the whole world.  Sin increases in general.

This new 70 week doctrine has gone viral.  It's like a cancer spreading so fast.  Don't mention Daniel 9 to me, it's not related, the desolations are general abominations of all mankind.

 

[Revelation Man]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

Christ is the one doing away with all the animal sacrifices and oblations for once and for all.  He is the sacrifice now, and we go to God through "him", the ultimate sacrifice.  The old covenant is done away with now, and the New Covenant will stand.  Christ confirmed that new covenant during his preaching, but "he" was "cut off" in the middle of the week (crucified).  After he was "cut off", his apostles were sent to testify of him for 3 1/2 years, which finished that week.

Since then abominations have filled the whole earth as we see today. Not one specific abomination, but many.  These abominations will stop at his return, until the consumation when he is announced King before the whole world.  They will see his glory.

So this whole 70 week thing, with the final week being in the end times is all hog wash to me.  That doctrine given by the enemy to man is blocking many from the truth.  He has distorted the true meaning, and many have fallen into that trap.

I admit it's a hard prophecy, not an easy one, but for the love of God, it's talking about the old sacrifices that are no longer required because of what Christ did.

So please, if you are going to talk to me about end times, and the abomination of desolation, give other scriptures that specifically speak about it, and not Daniel 9.

Well it is easy for me to prove the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME EVENT. Jesus can do away with nothing until Israel accepts him as their Messiah. The Daniel prophecy can it be fulfilled until Israel repents. These are just facts. 

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

It's hard to discuss this subject if we keep going all over the place.  So many different topics there.  You say the 7th angel is not the last one, I strongly disagree.  At the 7th angel, it is all done.  Christ has judged and done away with Babylon.  He has destroyed all the children who served Satan, but left some remnants of Israel and the gentiles.  Now all the surviving nations will be under Christ's dominion as he will send out all his laws and the world will know him, and God's will, will be clear now with no distortion.  The mystery is finished.  The world now know that they do have a God, and that his law will become the law of all the lands from now on.

Thank you for sharing your point of view.

Maybe, since you disagree so much with John, you should write your OWN Revelation, putting it in the order you think things should be. For some reason, it goes right over your head that chapters 16-16 take place after the 7th trumpet and before any of these things you say happen.

 

Sorry, but I am going to believe John on these things. After all, he wrote what he saw, and God showed him the vision. The problem is, you have a preconceived idea of what this "mystery" is and so you disregard or throw out the rest of the book because of your preconceptions.  Sorry, I cannot do that. I form my conceptions from exactly what the book says.

Can you perhaps give us some scriptural REASON why you find the need to rearrange John's book?

[iamlamad]

inchrist wrote,

Christ anointing ended the 69th week....Christ was still alive after the 69th week going into the 7oth week of his ministry, where he was crucified in the midst of his ministry. The latter half of the week is to be completed by His two witnesses into the future.

Does this really fit what is written?

Dan 9: ²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

This tells me the Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. But it is before the 70th week. You see, Daniel Himself, led by the Holy Spirit, put a gap between the 69th and 70th. Sir Robert Anderson proved that the 69 weeks took us to the day Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on the colt.  And it was after that - very shortly after that - when he was put to death.

In verse 27, there is an event that divides the week. You seem to think it was Jesus's death. But at the same time, you seem to think we have the last half of the 70th week ahead of us. Do I have this right?

What is written? "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease "

Do you have ANY scriptural proof that when Jesus was crucified, the Jews STOPPED their daily sacrifices? There is no such proof, because they did not stop their sacrifices. In fact, they kept on with their sacrifices as if nothing had happened. Therefore, your theory simply DOES NOT FIT SCRIPTURE.

You wish to put a gap between the two halves of the week, while Daniel puts a gap between the 69th week and the 70th week.

Once again, try using a little logic and common sense: If I take a knife and divide a whole apple, I get two equal halves. This is what is shown in Daniel and in Revelation. To get two equal halves there must be an ENTIRE WEEK to divide, exactly as shown in Revelation. We have the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week, and the vials in the second half.  If anyone tries to divide a half week and still end up with a week, they will have quarters, not halves. There MUST BE an entire week at the time something divides it. Inserting a gap in the middle of the week will not work.

Next, if we consider ALL scripture, Paul tells us what the abomination is that will divided the week: it will be the man of sin entering into the Holy of Holies. That will defile the temple and it from that point on must be cleansed before any more sacrifices can be accomplished. But there will be no time - for almost immediately the man of sin turned Beast will go after those that fled into the wilderness.

Can you prove that the sacrifices were stopped when Jesus was crucified? I think they were stopped in 70 AD.

Edited February 11, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad. 

No you did not break through.  You are misinterpreting Daniel 9.  The "he" who confirms the covenant is Christ.  Christ was "cut off" in the midst of the week (crucified). ...from there, you go out.  Desolations will continue until the consummation (the coming)  Desolations are abominations, not just made by the FP, but the whole world.  Sin increases in general.

This new 70 week doctrine has gone viral.  It's like a cancer spreading so fast.  Don't mention Daniel 9 to me, it's not related, the desolations are general abominations of all mankind.

 

Truth cannot be put out! It is as simple as that. Let's put your theory to the test:

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

OK, DID the daily sacrifices cease after Christ died? Did they? I am convinced the daily sacrifices continued right on to AD 70. Your theory fails. Another version reads: " But in the middle of that week he will bring sacrifices and offerings to a halt." Your theory fails. the sacrifices did not cease in the middle of the week.

On the other hand, when the man of sin enters the temple, just as Paul wrote, and walks into the holy of Holies, the temple is then desecrated, and the daily sacrifices must cease. And that, Sister, will be in the middle of a FUTURE week. Daniel and the Holy Spirit put a gap between the 69th and 70th week. You wish to put a gap in the middle of the week.  I would love to see you try to divide a half apple and still end up with a half.  It does not matter in this discussion who the HE is - what is written is that this HE does something that stops the daily sacrifices - RIGHT THEN - in the middle of the week. And it seems what ever it is that stops the daily sacrifices will be an abomination. I ask you: was Christ's death an abomination?

Next, consider Jesus' own words: answering their questions about the end of the age - " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place....:

Ah! Now we have a little more information about what it is that stops the daily sacrifice: is it Jesus' death on the cross as you suppose?  NO! It is an abomination standing in the holy of holies!  Make no mistake here, Jesus is making Daniel 9:27 a little more easy to understand! So it is NOT Jesus death on the cross that stops the daily sacrifices - it is an abomination that stops the sacrifices. Again, your theory fails.

^{2 Thes 2:3} Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

day Does this fit what Jesus said? Yes, almost completely. In this verse the abomination is seated. Jesus said "stand." I submit this man of sin will be standing before he is seated. But in either case, he will be an abomination in the temple that will cause the sacrifices to cease. Again, your theory fails the test of scripture, rightly divided.

 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

...

Thats because you dont understand the 70th week is about Christ serving for his Bride.

Let me give you an example or a concept of this.

So Jacob served seven years to get Rachel, 

 

Third time you have failed to read scriptures correctly. Yo dont think Jesus ends the old covenant?

You dont think Jesus can put an end to to sacrifices and offering?

In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering

Tell me something are the jews sacrificing and making offerings in the temple today?

 

Let's put your theory to the test:

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

OK, DID the daily sacrifices cease after Christ died? Did they? I am convinced the daily sacrifices continued right on to AD 70. Your theory fails.

Next, consider Jesus' own words: answering their questions about the end of the age - " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place....:

You see, Jesus makes Daniel a little easier to understand: you assume by Daniel the HE was Christ and Christ stopped the daily sacrifices. Yet, the sacrifices DID NOT CEASE! Daniel 11 makes it even more clear:

Daniel 11:31

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Jesus said, speaking of the end of days, that they would SEE an abomination of desolation stand in the Holy Place. And Daniel tells us this will take away the daily sacrifice. What ever it is that happens, and WHO EVER accomplishes it, the daily sacrifices cease immediately. Your theory fails the test of scripture.  Again I have to ask you, instead of forcing scripture to fit your theories, why not form your theories by scripture as written? I can assure you, there is no need to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory. The correct theory, the TRUTH, fits Revelation exactly as it is written, with 3 1/2 years from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial.

Therefore I have to assume the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit, in Dan. 9:27 is that the "he" is not Christ, but is the man of sin.

WHO is the 70th week for?

Daniel 9: ²⁴ Seventy weeks^[d] are decreed about your people and your holy city—

Sorry, but your theory fails again. The 70 weeks INCLUDING the final week, is about the JEWS and Hebrew people and about JERUSALEM. So your theory fails again: it is not about the bride of Christ at all. I have always said the Bride of Christ will be raptured before the 70th week begins.

"In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering"

In your theory, Christ's death on the cross caused the daily sacrifices to cease. They did not cease then. Your theory fails. And during the Millennial Reign of Christ, there will again be animal sacrifices. Your theory fails yet again.

Jesus said that they (those living in Judea at the end) will SEE the abomination standing in the Holy of Holies.....  So WHAT will they see? Paul explains this: they will see the man of sin enter into the Holy of Holies and THAT will be an abomination. It seems then that he will also place his image there. But the moment he enters the most holy place in the temple, the daily sacrifices will cease. NOT 30 of 40 years later.  As Daniel put it, "shall take away the daily sacrifice." Or: "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." So again, your theory simply does not fit what is written.

My friend, the ENTIRE 70TH WEEK is still future to us. Believe it!

[Sister]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Truth cannot be put out! It is as simple as that. Let's put your theory to the test:

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

iamlamad

The Jews did not believe Jesus was the Son of God and had the power to forgive sins.  They continued sacrificing in their ignorance. 

 

Quote

OK, DID the daily sacrifices cease after Christ died? Did they? I am convinced the daily sacrifices continued right on to AD 70.

Of course they carried on their traditions and still sacrificed after Christ died.  The point is they were doing it IN VAIN.  It was to no affect.  Useless.  If only they understood that Christ desired mercy and not sacrifice. 

In that middle of the week, the animal sacrifices stopped ....for those who understood.  No longer required.

Hebrews 10:9   Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

  Hebrews 10:10   By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

  Hebrews 10:11   And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

  Hebrews 10:12   But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

[Sister]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Well it is easy for me to prove the Abomination of Desolation is an END TIME EVENT. Jesus can do away with nothing until Israel accepts him as their Messiah. The Daniel prophecy can it be fulfilled until Israel repents. These are just facts. 

Revelation Man

Israel had 70 weeks to repent back then.  They had no temple remember?  Inside the 70 weeks, the temple was rebuilt, the Messiah came, he was cut off (killed), and then as a result of punishment the temple destroyed in 70AD by the Romans.  No temple until this day.  They rejected him and spiritual desolations occur to them because of this fact, that by rejecting Christ, they reject God.

But that was the past.

God has given them another chance.  He musters them together and re-establishes Jerusalem and the State of Israel.  They are called from all over the world to come back to their homeland.  In 1948 this happened.  This was a big deal! for they were without the holy city, Jerusalem since 70AD.  That's 1878 years!  A very good reason to turn back to God.

God then said that Jerusalem and the nations will serve "the King of Babylon" for 70 years.  Not the King of Babylon back then, but the King of Babylon today - Satan, the God of this world.  God is not happy, he is angry with ALL THE NATIONS.

After the 70 years is expired, God will punish the nations for their doings, and he will start with Jerusalem.  The trouble will all start there.  The King of the North is coming again. 

The King of the North in the past was Rome.  You can pick it if you read Daniel carefully

 Daniel 11:6   And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

Cleopatra and Caesar, or could be Mark Antony.  Regardless it's Rome -Rome was King of the North (back then)

Rome is part of Europe now.  Rome has no fighting power, only money,....and money is power...then join Rome to Europe and put them all together, with Great Britain and Germany, France, etc, and you have a mighty Northern army coming.  It's this King of the North and his families who will come in the latter times, not as the former, because it's slightly different now.  These European nations will be one, working together.  This is the beast's kingdom.

There are many other Daniel prophecies relating to the end times.  Daniel chapter 9 is not one of them.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Sister said:

iamlamad

The Jews did not believe Jesus was the Son of God and had the power to forgive sins.  They continued sacrificing in their ignorance. 

 

Of course they carried on their traditions and still sacrificed after Christ died.  The point is they were doing it IN VAIN.  It was to no affect.  Useless.  If only they understood that Christ desired mercy and not sacrifice. 

In that middle of the week, the animal sacrifices stopped ....for those who understood.  No longer required.

Hebrews 10:9   Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

  Hebrews 10:10   By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

  Hebrews 10:11   And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

  Hebrews 10:12   But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

The test is, does your theory match scripture. I find it does not. Sorry, Daniel CLEARLY tells us that SOMETHING stops the daily sacrificed dead and immediately.  Your scriptures are a non sequitur: they do not answer the question: DID the sacrifices cease when Jesus died?  The answer is a clear NO.

This is a shadow of what is to come: It is history now, and about Antiochus Epiphanes

Daniel 8:11

Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down

This is Daniel prophesying about Antiochus: a shadow of what is coming:

Daniel 11:31

And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

 

Sister,  note carefully that neither of these speak of WHY sacrifices are done, or if God approves of them: it mearly tells us the daily sacrifices CEASED.  If we read Daniel 8, we know why: Antiochus put an image of ZEUS  in the Holy of Holies. The temple had to be cleaned and rededicated to God. Daniel told us that tool 2300 days.

 

In Daniel 12, speaking of our future, Daniel wrote,

¹¹ And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away....

 

So the word of God tells us the sacrifices will CEASE, or be "taken away." And this happens as the event divides the week into two halves.  Jesus own words are they in our future, those living in Judea will SEE this abomination standing in the most holy place of the temple. Paul tells us it will be the man of sin that will enter the temple. This event is what stops the daily sacrifices.

I say again, your theory fails the test of scripture.

 

Of course your scriptures are true: we know that the blood of bulls and goats can never remove sin or the guilt of sin. But that is not what we are talking about. We are discussing what will happen to fulfill the words of Jesus in our future: Jesus said they will see the abomination. Other scriptures tell us this abomination is what STOPS the daily sacrifices. The point is, they STOP. In 32 or 33 AD they did NOT stop.  Your theory fails.

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Daniels 8 prophecy was sealed 11 years ago before Daniel 9. Daniel 9 is completely different.

In fact most of the early Rabbi's understood Daniel 9 to be about the coming Messiah

1a. Maimonides (Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon): "Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah’s coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah" (Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3 p.24.)"

"1b. Rabbi Moses Abraham Levi: "I have examined and searched all the Holy Scriptures and have not found the time for the coming of Messiah clearly fixed, except in the words of Gabriel to the prophet Daniel, which are written in the 9th chapter of the prophecy of Daniel

 

 

What the problem is, actually what will resolve the matter, when does the 69th week end?

 

Daniel 8 was about Antiochus Epiphanes. Many use it for the end times, especially the 2300 days, but it was all about Antiochus. But, what he did was a TYPE of what the Beast of Rev.  13 will do.  I think  Rabbi Moses was blinded to the truth of Daniel 9, as were all the Jews. I was surprised to learn, they did not put Daniel in with the prophets, but stuck his book some where else. I guess they did not consider him to be a prophet. Big mistake!

The 69th week ended before Christ was "cut off." I thought that much was clear.