Is Maryology Idolatry?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, woundeddog said:

sorry JM-- that is the whole problem with the RCC "documents" instead of scripture.

I hear this all the time on EWTN Catholic radio- some apologist named Dr Edwards-- repeatedly tells callers that Jesus never said the Bible was the source of all spiritual instruction- his argument is that Jesus promoted "oral tradition"--

 

But for me-- It's not so important to win and "intellectual head butting " with you-- as it is to warn new believers and those searching Christ that the Roman Church will most likely lead them to hell rather than to heaven

So you make an accusation that you can't back up. Nothing intellectual about that. 

When people resort to unfounded accusations, they are revealing their bigotry. And there's nothing intellectual about that. The majority of my activity here is challenging people's accusations. And all too often I get some vague, I heard it from ....... Or I grew up RC.

Only the Holy Spirit can lead each of us to truth. And when it comes to what folks are taught about the Catholic Church, there isn't much truth out there. 

Catholics are bound to the teachings of the Church. And they believe that Jesus founded that Church (Matt 16:18) and they believe that Jesus will send the Holy Spirit to protect his Church (John 15:15-18). So when the Church that Jesus founded and the Holy Spirit is protecting says something, you listen. And because the Holy Spirit protects Its Church it will not teach error. This is the the same as being wrong. It will not teach dogmatic error. Catholics are bound to the dogmas of the Catholic Church only.

Protestants are not bound by this and we see the fruits that it has produced. They claim the bible is their authority. But that's not true, each individual is their own authority. They pick and choose what scripture means and what it is saying. We have prove by the incredible division amongst Protestants. How do you get 30,000 different churches claiming they have the truth when they all use the same bible. 

 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 3:46 AM, Judas Machabeus said:

4. Enoch and Elijah were both assumed into heaven. It's not unreasonable to believe that Mary would also be. 

5. Co-Mediatrix doesn't mean Mary mediates sins with Jesus. 

6. All those in heaven offer up the prayers of those on earth. Not just Mary. 

4: It is unreasonable brother because there is zero mention of it in the bible. Nothing even implying it.

5:. Yeah it kinda does.

6: I have no doubt that those in heaven pray for us. but there is a BIGGGG difference between praying for us and being prayed TO. We do not ever ask the dead to intervene in any way. We do not pray to them for intercession, we pray to the Father alone in the name of the one and only mediator, Jesus alone.

Some often point out Rev 8:4

And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

But I rather liken it to a postman. They know they are carrying messages, they know where they are coming from and where they are going to. But they cannot read them or respond to them because the letters aren't addresses to them.

And that doesn't work anyway for dead saints praying for the living as its only speaking of the angels carrying the prayers to God

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

12 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Or else the bible would, and COULD not say, ALL HAVE SINNED

Here's the problem with that argument. You have to say Jesus either sinned or was not fully man. Because if we take that verse in a literalist than Jesus's humanity would have to have sinned because all have sinned. There are times hyperbole is used and this is an example. 

To give another example. How much sinning do babies do? Or the mentally retarded, How much sinning do they do? You can not say all have sinned in a liertalist why. You can say all have sinned in a general sense that most people have sinned. But there are exceptions. 

The difference between Mary and babies and the mentally deficient. Is that Mary was cleansed of all sin at the moment of conception and filled fully with Gods grace. While babies and the mentally deficient are not guilty of actual sin, they still retain original sin. 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

We do not pray to them for intercession, we pray to the Father alone in the name of the one and only mediator, Jesus alone

Can you pray to the Holy Spirit to mediate in your behave? I'm going to assume yes. So it's not ONLY Jesus. 

Can you ask someone to pray for you? Yes of course you can.... and you just asked that person to mediate for you. You asked them to go to Jesus on your behave and request something for you. 

So explain to me if you will, why can we ask those on earth to pray for us but not those in heaven?

[TheMatrixHasU71]

3 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Here's the problem with that argument. You have to say Jesus either sinned or was not fully man

Well, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Well Jesus is God so he doesn't fall under the "all". Jesus was born only in the likenss of the flesh, He wasn't born into sin as the rest of us were.

 

4 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

How much sinning do babies do? Or the mentally retarded, How much sinning do they do?

EVERYONE does. Even babies. Only they cannot be held accountable for their sin.

Likewise for the mentally deficient.

5 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Is that Mary was cleansed of all sin at the moment of conception and filled fully with Gods grace

Completely proven otherwise by the bible (As I have shown in another post) and the scripture says, Hail thou who art highly favoured; It doesn't say full of grace. Even if it did, So what? that doesn't signify her sinlessness in any way

[warrior12]

2 hours ago, Fidelibus said:

Thats my point, nowhere do I see where Scripture says that Mary did sin, and with respect, you have as yet to show it either.

Hi Fidelibus.   You mentioned you studied a lot of Church history.  Just want to ask a simple question and maybe with a simple answer.  Don't want to OP to hold me in contempt 

 Did the inqusition really happened ?, as i have heard some mentioned it was not true.

Maybe i will start a thread on the inqusition when i get home.

Edited April 5, 2017 by warrior12

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

9 minutes ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Jesus was born only in the likenss of the flesh

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I don't want to read into it or assume it's meaning. 

I'll elaborate on the point I was making. 

Jesus is fully God. 

Jesus is fully man. And being fully man he faced all the same temptation and emotions we struggle with on a daily basis. Even though he was tempted he did not fail. That's what makes him the new Adam. Jesus's humanity triumphed where Adams failed. So if you are going to say all have sinned and there were no exceptions than Jesus being fully man would have sinned as well since all have sinned. 

You can't make an absolute statement (and put it in all caps) and than have an exception.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

16 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

Maybe i will start a thread on the inqusition when i get home.

I think if you did that it might break the internet  

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

The bible never uses these two Greek words anepsios or sungenis in reference to Jesus brothers. For Catholic doctrine to be true

I've never read the NT in the Greek so I wouldn't know. But it doesn't matter because you are forcing modern day North American culture and  linguistics onto a 1st century middle eastern culture. 

There is no word in Hebrew or Aramaic for cousin....... I know I know! Don't get a head of me. 

Jesus spoke Aramaic. So did his family and likely all those around him growing up. So for 33 years he and his family referred to cousins as brothers and sisters. And therefore they were recorded as such. 

Now to come back to the Greek. Why didn't they refer them as cousins in the Greek than, since the NT was written in the Greek and there's a word for cousin. Simply because that's not how they were referred to as. We see in the OT as Lot is called Abrahams brother in the KJV

Gen 14:14

And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

We know that he was his nephew yet you see the term brother still being used. Other translations use relative or kinsman. But not the KJV. Why, well because even though Lot was properly a nephew, Lot was not called nephew because there was no word for that. The brothers and sisters of Jesus are no different. They weren't called cousins in Greek because in everyday communication they were not called that because Hebrew and Aramaic don't have a word for cousin. 

This is regarding Lot but is also applicable to Jews of the time of Jesus:

When one look at the Hebrew words used for “brother” in both Genesis 14:14 and 14:16 we see it is אָח.  The Hebrew word אָח can be used in more than one sense and it does not necessarily mean brother in the sense of family members having the same mother and father.

https://veritasdomain.wordpress.com/2016/11/04/bible-contradiction-was-lot-abrahams-brother-or-nephew/

Edited April 5, 2017 by Judas Machabeus
As is the case most often, the evil autocorrect

[Spock]

3 hours ago, woundeddog said:

 

 

But for me-- It's not so important to win and "intellectual head butting " with you-- as it is to warn new believers and those searching Christ that the Roman Church will most likely lead them to hell rather than to heaven

Awesome words my brother, awesome.

Yes, this is what it is all about- being available to give people the truth, the good news of the gospel, so that people can make an intelligent decision regarding life's choices that affect their eternity. 

I was born in a Catholic family and attended mass for almost 20 years. What did that get me? Honestly, if I died during that period, I would have gone straight to Hell.    I had no clue how one could be saved, apart from you better not have mortal sin on your soul, you better participate in the Catholic sacraments,  and you must do good works.  I know we said the Apostles Creed every week, but somehow just reciting those words never really sunk in to the heart. And, this is why this topic concerns me so much, I knew much more about Mary than I did Jesus. Now I'm hopeful there is a remnant of believers in the RCC but there could be more if the Gospel message was clearer without all the baggage that goes with it, like Maryology or Maryatry. 

And that is why it is important to have conversations like these so that any RCC people visiting here might be challenged in their thinking to reconsider the merits of the RCC braintrust that has ruled and is presently ruling over them. Of course, some people will not be impressed, like my brother (so far), but our place is to throw out the seed in hopes that some may grow. 

In conclusion, present the truth because you never know who is reading and being drawn to the truth.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Spock