Is Maryology Idolatry?

[Fidei Defensor]

I still see no command to pray for dead saints (asleep, reposed) nor that they pray for us in Scripture.

[TheMatrixHasU71]

20 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

This is your opinion and not scriptural. In revelations there's a book with seven seals and no one is worthy to open the book but the lamb

but there are no seals on the bowls and if you've ever been (you might have I don't know) to a service with insence, it floats up for all to see.... again disproving its for Gods eyes only. 

Your answer still doesnt prove that the DEAD can hear or answer prayers. I still hold to my position. You need to prove from the bible that the dead can hear prayers, they we can pray to the dead, and that the dead can intercede for us.

I would like to point out something too regarding the incense and how it, and therefore prayers are meant for God alone. There is a passage in the OT where God forbids anyone to make the temple incense for their own enjoyment. (The incense is meant to be seen here as symbolic for prayers- this is why you see incense mentioned symbolically as prayers of the saints in Revelation)

Exodus

And as for the perfume which thou shalt make, ye shall not make to yourselves according to the composition thereof: it shall be unto thee holy for the LORD.

Whosoever shall make like unto that, to smell thereto, shall even be cut off from his people

[TheMatrixHasU71]

18 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Then there are verses in the Pentateuch or Torah which describe contacting the dead as a sin (Deuteronomy 8:10-11, Leviticus 19:11, 1 Chronicles 10:13-14)

Good one

[Fidei Defensor]

14 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

Good one

It just seems to me that God would not have us pray to dead or receive they prayers, if he says don't consult them or try to contact them. I mean Prayer comes from Old English Word to mean "Come hither I pray," which means come here and talk to me.  

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

39 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I mean Prayer comes from Old English Word to mean "Come hither I pray," which means come here and talk to me.

[+ object] old-fashioned : to seriously ask (someone) to do something

[+] Example sentences

— used to introduce a question or request in a polite or deliberately old-fashioned way

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/pray

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when giving a definition for a word, I was always taught not to use that word in the definition. I feel you were being a bit intellectually dishonest in your post. It means to ask, petition. NOT come here and talk to me.

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pray (v.) 

early 13c., "ask earnestly, beg," also (c. 1300) "pray to a god or saint," from Old French preier "to pray" (c.900, Modern French prier), from Vulgar Latin *precare (also source of Italian pregare), from Latin precari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat," from *prex (plural preces, genitive precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE root *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (source also of Sanskrit prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" Old Church Slavonic prositi, Lithuanian prasyti "to ask, beg;" Old High German frahen, German fragen, Old English fricgan "to ask" a question). 

Parenthetical expression I pray you, "please, if you will," attested from 1510s, contracted to pray 16c. Related: Prayed; praying. Praying mantisattested from 1809. The "Gardener's Monthly" of July 1861 lists other names for it as camel cricket, soothsayer, and rear horse.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pray

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

32 minutes ago, Yowm said:

offer up prayers FOR me

That's what praying to the Saints is. No different. 

When the word pray is used in conjunction with the Saints it's not what Protestants do when the pray to Jesus.  Below is how the word praying is used in relation to the Saints. 

2 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

[+ object] old-fashioned : to seriously ask (someone) to do something

[+] Example sentences

— used to introduce a question or request in a polite or deliberately old-fashioned way

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/pray

-----------------------------

when giving a definition for a word, I was always taught not to use that word in the definition. I feel you were being a bit intellectually dishonest in your post. It means to ask, petition. NOT come here and talk to me.

----------------------------

pray (v.) 

early 13c., "ask earnestly, beg," also (c. 1300) "pray to a god or saint," from Old French preier "to pray" (c.900, Modern French prier), from Vulgar Latin *precare (also source of Italian pregare), from Latin precari "ask earnestly, beg, entreat," from *prex (plural preces, genitive precis) "prayer, request, entreaty," from PIE root *prek- "to ask, request, entreat" (source also of Sanskrit prasna-, Avestan frashna- "question;" Old Church Slavonic prositi, Lithuanian prasyti "to ask, beg;" Old High German frahen, German fragen, Old English fricgan "to ask" a question). 

Parenthetical expression I pray you, "please, if you will," attested from 1510s, contracted to pray 16c. Related: Prayed; praying. Praying mantisattested from 1809. The "Gardener's Monthly" of July 1861 lists other names for it as camel cricket, soothsayer, and rear horse.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pray

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

15 hours ago, TheMatrixHasU71 said:

You need to prove from the bible that the dead can hear prayers, they we can pray to the dead, and that the dead can intercede for us

I have laid out my case using scripture. This thread is currently at 42 pages so I doubt it would be an easy task to find it. But it's there.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Judas Machabeus
Bad grammar, had to move the word "is"

[Fidei Defensor]

I think the angels response to women is great way to think about it, "their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead?" (Luke 24:5). Why are you looking to dead saints, when you can share with living? The case that "why ask someone to pray for you," doesn't work, because the separation of death does not allow the living and dead to talk and is forbidden (Deuteronomy 8:11, Leviticus 19:28-31). Besides that the man in hell, not mention those in Sheol shared that no one can cross chasm, "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." (Luke 16:26). If they cannot cross between the paradise and inferno, why would they cross into earth or listen to prayers? Is not all subjected to Christ in all three realms, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.." (Philippians 2:10). Why would you pray to those dead who have no power, when you pray to Jesus who was dead and is now alive, and is God (Colossians 2:9, Titus 2:13)?

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

4 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Why are you looking to dead saints

Do you believe those in heaven are dead? Is that what you're  saying? Because scriputre disagrees with you. Jesus lists off the patriarchs and says that God is the God of the living. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Judas Machabeus
Wrong your

[Fidei Defensor]

Just now, Judas Machabeus said:

Do you believe those in heaven are dead? Is that what your saying? Because scriputre disagrees with you. Jesus lists off the patriarchs and says that God is the God of the living. 

Of course not. But I am using dead in its definition of (separation, we are separated from them at present time). That is what death meant, but now it has other contexts. Even the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15) is separation from God,  which means these people are separated from God and in hell.

I can quote about how there is no more death, but I am talking about death in that we are here on earth, and the other saints are in heaven. We can't communicate, there is a chasm of separation (called death).